These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#181 - 2015-05-21 19:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:...


It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post.

EDIT: Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range.
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2015-05-21 19:43:57 UTC
Xavier Azabu wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... Shocked ...massaging drone combat... Cool

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


Optimal nerf on Gardes is a little harsh.
Maybe like 15%? No one uses them on towers or in kiting Ishtar combat anyway.

The Curator and Bouncer nerf is needed.

Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar?


In another 6 sentry drone and Ishtar nerfs, they will remove sentries from Ishtars and we will be there.
Immortal Chrono Pimpin
Codename-47
Avocado Cartel
#183 - 2015-05-21 19:50:35 UTC
Taking optimal from gallente sentrys?

Can your bad nerfs not break lore?

Blasters and railguns work off optimal which is already not that huge compared to other sentrys range so how about just remove falloff from gardes instead.
Illindar Tyrannus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2015-05-21 19:50:43 UTC
If you going to fix the problem you should look at the ship hull and not the Sentries.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2015-05-21 19:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.

Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus

All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.

Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.

Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.

Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.

The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.


For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.


Muninn at best is 420-450dps IIRC (not at my computer) and shoots around 27km+33km with shortrange ammo. With long range ammo its 50km+33km @ 280-300dps. Course thats with 2 TE. I dont remember the naked stats. That is locked in with explo or kinetic dmg for long range. If you use the proton ammo rounds you get even less dps to use thermal/em damage at range.

Eagle is around 400-450dps last i checked with shortrange ammo and rails, and goes down from there.

I havent tinkered with zealots much so im not familiar with em. I came into EVE during the shadoo era.. missed out on those doctrines. But from previous discussions on the topic its pretty similar to the other non ishtar HACs.

The cerb doesnt fall into the same category. Its more related to the vaga/deimos/sac. Its the more mobile vessel (compared to the eagle) its just caldari lore favors missile range. The cerb also has no tracking compared to drones (i guess you missed the flight time + missing comment). So saying missiles hit fine with flight time is not the same as drones hitting consistently with flight time.

The cerb is also locked into kinetic only damage, not good for fleets, which is why there are not cerb doctrines. The ishtar can switch damage types no problem by dropping a different set of sentries. These changes seem aimed at making the ishtars "ammo" have a bigger disparity between them, just like other ammo. Sacrifice/balance etc.


Munin/Eagle's biggest downfall is the loki and tengu just do it better, and there are fitting issues on them iirc. Zealot faces fitting issues too but is still sort of worth using if you can't use legions/prots. If you buffed these 3 ships fittings and fixed t3s being HACs but better, you'd see a lot more of them running around.

The way the ishtar gets used is actually closer to the cerb than anything. Problem with cerb fleets is firewall and heavy missiles kinda suck, so you're using RLML and dat reload time doe

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#186 - 2015-05-21 19:54:42 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:...


It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post.

Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range.


Because having your weapon max range cap go from 60km to 85 KM is not a bonus? Ishtar targettign range is 100km so there is no need for a module to boost it untill you go with DLAs. Bouncers, curators and wardens all still do damage past the 60km mark that would be the limit if the Ishtar didn't have a range bonus.
SecretService
Secret Services
#187 - 2015-05-21 19:59:22 UTC
At this rate, by the time they figure that they need to fix Ishtar, we'll end up with no one using sentries at all.

Quote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... Shocked ...massaging drone combat... Cool

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!

No, you don't. Fix Ishtar. Unfortunately you do just what looks right to you, screw the plebe...
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#188 - 2015-05-21 20:05:20 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:...


It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post.

Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range.


Because having your weapon max range cap go from 60km to 85 KM is not a bonus? Ishtar targettign range is 100km so there is no need for a module to boost it untill you go with DLAs. Bouncers, curators and wardens all still do damage past the 60km mark that would be the limit if the Ishtar didn't have a range bonus.

So if a HML Cerberus (95km base targeting range) had a 60KM limit on missiles being able to engage that would be okay? The control range bonus is to bring the weapon system in line with with the ships targeting range. SO while it is a bonus it is only in order to equalize the weapon system.

The only way I can see CCP getting around this would be to remove control range and use a ships targeting range instead. In which case no bonus would be needed.
Brashar Bheskagor
Dutch Legions
Solyaris Chtonium
#189 - 2015-05-21 20:07:20 UTC
the problem is not with sentry's and the ships that are using it like a ishtar (heavy assualt cruiser).
But with the doctrines that encounter a ishtar. you can easyly kill sentrys by using a smart bombs battleship or bombs of a sb.
Guys and girls pls this game is all about tactics or take a mobile depot in your ship with different resistance and other items so you can adjust to a fleet you encounter.

you can also attack a ishtar fleet with close range high alpha fleets (Navytempests)with webbers and scram fitted ships.
Its just in how you play your hand on the pvp field and take some times some risks.


Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill their logi and t3 cruisers with a big naga/tornado fleet see youtube battle vki of last week.
NCdot even are dropping carrier/supers fleet to save their fleets. every thing in eve with battles is about tactics and field and adjust your fleet to the actual situation.

The best way to balance a doctrine ships is to alter the ehp of a ship without effecting the weaponsystems or alter the ship bonuses. this is more easier then rebalancing sentry's. because you can have optimal range module in the midslot of a ship to boost the optimal range of a sentry as like tracking of a sentry/drone.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#190 - 2015-05-21 20:09:33 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.

Because the geddon, rattle, and drone proteus are causing sooo many problems right now. Let's not even talk about these non-stop nestor fleets....

Battleship class is a dieing species. And only those that use sentry drones are in more or less adequate shape. Armageddon is more a support ship, yet it sports a solid punch - compare it to Scorpion. Rattlesnake is a really tough thing, shredding everything in close through middle to long range, and only ultra-long setups can beat it... cannot say the same for Nightmare. Nestor is good, but too damn expensive - twice as much as Machariel. And drone Proteus? Are you kidding?
Bevici Roden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2015-05-21 20:10:42 UTC
I think that the nerfs to the weapon system that is the sentry is a bad idea. I believe the hull is the problem. I think that this change is bad because it impacts other hulls instead of the primary problem is the ishtar.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#192 - 2015-05-21 20:12:00 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:...


It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post.

Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range.


Because having your weapon max range cap go from 60km to 85 KM is not a bonus? Ishtar targettign range is 100km so there is no need for a module to boost it untill you go with DLAs. Bouncers, curators and wardens all still do damage past the 60km mark that would be the limit if the Ishtar didn't have a range bonus.

So if a HML Cerberus (95km base targeting range) had a 60KM limit on missiles being able to engage that would be okay? The control range bonus is to bring the weapon system in line with with the ships targeting range. SO while it is a bonus it is only in order to equalize the weapon system.

The only way I can see CCP getting around this would be to remove control range and use a ships targeting range instead. In which case no bonus would be needed.


2 out of 3 missile type on the cerberus won't shoot to it's maximum lock range. One of them can't shoot to the unbonused drone range. Oh and please don't forget to mention the cerb need 2 range bonus on those weapon to achieve those range numbers. I think the sentries needed 2 bonus to range (max velocity and flight time) just like sentries do (drone control range and optimal).
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#193 - 2015-05-21 20:13:08 UTC
So once again you are nerfing everything not an Ishtar, to fix the Ishtar issues. Brilliant...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Stinkkie WizzleTeats
East Coast Grass Growers Association
#194 - 2015-05-21 20:14:52 UTC
Why nerf the garde really. 50% percent of the optimal range of bouncers and even less for the other ones. To boot your also nerfing tracking and dps even though the stated problem is bouncers, curators, a and bonused hulls (Dominix and ishtar). You already nerf end them once, please do not make that drone useless
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#195 - 2015-05-21 20:15:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.

Um...
CCP Rise wrote:
First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#196 - 2015-05-21 20:17:08 UTC
Brashar Bheskagor wrote:
Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill...

Let's see what you say when they start dropping slowcats.
And they will.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2015-05-21 20:18:26 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Brashar Bheskagor wrote:
Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill...

Let's see what you say when they start dropping slowcats.
And they will.


Shhh, slowcats are fine.... so very balanced... kinda like supers are :3

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#198 - 2015-05-21 20:20:04 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Brashar Bheskagor wrote:
Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill...

Let's see what you say when they start dropping slowcats.
And they will.


Shhh, slowcats are fine.... so very balanced... kinda like supers are :3


How 'bout dem wrecking balls?
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#199 - 2015-05-21 20:45:55 UTC
Obidiah Kane wrote:
I learn the Ishtar then...
I learn the Loki then...
I learn the Svipul then...
I learn the Domi then...

you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills.

:( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it.

Because you train what's dominant.
Tamer
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#200 - 2015-05-21 20:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamer
Dear CCP. That fix do nothing.
The only one thing you can do to nerf OP drone formats.

Add signature radius and/or reduce HP of drones.

1-2 bombs to kill drones, will be great.