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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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The laser crystals rebalance thread.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2015-05-22 08:28:24 UTC
Amarr ships are supposed to be slow, armor plated, and run lasers.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#62 - 2015-05-22 11:00:34 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
A very entertaining list of ships you listed here (especially the nano Bhaal, LOLOL). I'd love for you to post some fits with these ships in a kiting setup pretty please.


Kiting BS is a regular BS with point/web and an LAAR+RAH+DCU in the lows. Rest is usually 50/50 on nanos and heat sinks. True Sansha NOS goes out to 30km for about 15mil each. I wouldn't buy t2 hyperspatials, 2 T1 are just fine. Else, pirate BS got absurd buffer.

If you find about any cruiser and up, fitting RAH or eanm, DCU, AAR is all you need for tank usually. More wouldn't help you either and that is enough to lick wounds after pulling range, or to sustain through little incoming dps. You just want to keep mobility up so you can pick targets.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#63 - 2015-05-22 11:05:00 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:


Its only a matter of time before people get smart and use the superior base speed of other ships to set an MWD and scram to tackle down kiting amarr ships.

Lets not forget resistances are a thing. Hardly anyone shield tanks for PVP anymore, due to base resist stats on the armor. Probably the biggest reason is amarr ships still out there, coupled with how CCP strangely made almost all hp buffer systems nearly equal. Even caldari ships are armor tanking these days, so you know there's a problem with hp buffer balance, if the combined effect of natural hp stat + resists is actually neck and neck competition with an armor/DCU tanked merlin or kestrel.

All you have to do is put one resistance module on any ship in the game for thermal armor, and you've got T2 resists to lasers. More to the point, lasers damage shifts from EM+Therm to pure EM at radio, in addition to a loss of damage for trading range for damage, while also having almost as much cap use as scorch or multifreq, so you've lost damage trading for range, you've also started hitting a natural 50-60% resist, which is basically T2 resist. It should be no wonder T1 crystals don't get used more over scorch, but the thing is that scorch is simply allowing amarr ships to remain competitive. Take away scorch and where would amarr ships be?


This is not true. Almost all small scale PvP is shield tanked, range and speed are king when you're not alphaing people off the field. Even in large scale armor PvP, EM is still often the lowest resist. BS and even capitals running a standard 3 hardener + DCU setup have EM as the lowest resist, as does Gallente T2 with an explosive hardener. Minmatar T2 basically doesn't exist and the FOTM ships (Ishtar, Tengu) have 0 EM resist.

Amarr sucks because they're slow and armor tank. Lasers are very strong, the hulls just suck. It's the exact opposite problem Minmatar has. Great hulls, ****** weapons. Just imagine the Vagabond redone with the corresponding laser bonuses.


There are a few exceptions for Amarr like the Armor tanked Tachyon NM using multiNavy which is a spectacular ship.
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#64 - 2015-05-22 12:44:38 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Khorvek wrote:
I see what you're saying.

So on an infinite scale, the lasers do more DPS provided tracking isnt an issue. But if we take the start of the fight to the specific time of the third arty thrasher shot, it does more DPS than lasers in that timeframe because of high alpha, and on the 6th shot the average is lowered enough that lasers overtake them in DPS.


Between the arty hits laser do more dmg, its just that the alpha bring arty back up for each of the first 3 arty shots.
From 2nd and 3rd laser hit is more total dmg than arty have done up until the arty land the 2nd hit, 4th and 5th laser shot means more dmg for laser until arty hit the 3rd shot. then 6th laser shot bring it up far enough that arty do not reach again


I had a chance to test this yesterday, and I got a surprising 360+ DPS from arty thrashers in the first two shots. That is after resists applied. That seems really good.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#65 - 2015-05-22 14:49:04 UTC
Khorvek wrote:


I had a chance to test this yesterday, and I got a surprising 360+ DPS from arty thrashers in the first two shots. That is after resists applied. That seems really good.

I'd be interested in that fit, as 280s with dual m14 gyros, t2 burst rig and quake with max skills gives a paper DPS of only 380, and faction give 364. So either you got a couple of the hits with bonus damage in a row, or that fit is fairly darned shiny for a destroyer and firing into a 0% resist hole.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2015-05-22 15:02:46 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Khorvek wrote:


I had a chance to test this yesterday, and I got a surprising 360+ DPS from arty thrashers in the first two shots. That is after resists applied. That seems really good.

I'd be interested in that fit, as 280s with dual m14 gyros, t2 burst rig and quake with max skills gives a paper DPS of only 380, and faction give 364. So either you got a couple of the hits with bonus damage in a row, or that fit is fairly darned shiny for a destroyer and firing into a 0% resist hole.


Or he counted with his T0 as the first shot and stopped the time as soon as the second shot fired so the cycle time of the second shot counted for nothing...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#67 - 2015-05-22 15:25:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Khorvek wrote:


I had a chance to test this yesterday, and I got a surprising 360+ DPS from arty thrashers in the first two shots. That is after resists applied. That seems really good.

I'd be interested in that fit, as 280s with dual m14 gyros, t2 burst rig and quake with max skills gives a paper DPS of only 380, and faction give 364. So either you got a couple of the hits with bonus damage in a row, or that fit is fairly darned shiny for a destroyer and firing into a 0% resist hole.


Or he counted with his T0 as the first shot and stopped the time as soon as the second shot fired so the cycle time of the second shot counted for nothing...

or he made a mathematical error like this, yes.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#68 - 2015-05-22 22:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Khorvek
That's not really a mathematical error. Are you suggesting that the cooldown of weapon fire should factor into DPS even though the target has already been killed?

Paper DPS is averaged over an infinite time scale. The actual DPS value goes up and down in between hits and cooldown.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#69 - 2015-05-23 00:53:59 UTC
Khorvek wrote:
That's not really a mathematical error. Are you suggesting that the cooldown of weapon fire should factor into DPS even though the target has already been killed?

Paper DPS is averaged over an infinite time scale. The actual DPS value goes up and down in between hits and cooldown.

If you give a reasonable time frame relative to the kinds of weapons being used, sure we can cut off any cooldown beyond that point as irrelevent. if you just post "I managed x DPS on a thrasher in 2 shots" such a statement is extremely misleading, and does not use any of the fairly well agreed upon definitions of the term "DPS" as it applies in eve. While technically correct, this is the same sort of hair splitting that makes people hate lawyers.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#70 - 2015-05-23 01:43:47 UTC
I think you've missed the whole conversation earlier about why people choose high single shot damage thrashers and catalysts to gank over coercers.

Its because their DPS before being shot down by concord is higher. Frigate and destroyer fights also last a very short time in most cases, which means that high single shot power is better, as it takes longer for the low single shot damage weapons to find parity. Read my conversation in this thread with someone else about it.

When you have a measurment like DPS, and when something has a cooldown time of many seconds, there is always a DPS spike in the beginning. The DPS is a factor of the cooldown time, but the actual damage is applied instantly.

If I have a 100 DPS weapon with 5 second cooldown time, it must do 500 damage in a hit.
At time 1, DPS would be 500. At time 2, DPS would be 250, and so on.

If you cycled your weapon for one shot only, the DPS is the value of the damage output, because you are choosing not to repeat. Repeat is what creates the DPS average. Repeat only works if the target is still alive, so the average DPS with a few shots fired will be higher than what it reads in EFT.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.