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The Rocket rebalance thread

Author
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1 - 2015-05-17 12:28:10 UTC
From the description tab of a rocket launcher:

"A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system."

Now that part always puzzled me somehow and except for some edge cases it is usually a better option to fit light missiles instead unless you run into powergrid problems.

I think it is time for a public relations campaign for rockets and a renaming alonside with some small changes to them. First of all the name.
My proposal here comes from the medium launchers and doesn't include a change to the missle but a simple cosmetic change.
Instead of the name Rocket Launcher they become Light Assault Missile Launchers.

Following the example of the Heavy Assault Missile Launchers a clip size increase wouldn't hurt either and instead of 50 light assault missiles in a tech2 launcher, 60 (or 66?) would do just that.


With a scary new name I thought we could actually make them an actual missile while we are at it:


Light Assault Missiles (currently rockets) get a base damage increase of 25% (or even 50%?) and a flight time increase from 2 to 3 seconds.

An increase of 25% to the base Light Assault Missile (currently known as rocket) will push it from 33hp to 41,25hp damage and a 50% increase would push it from 33hp to 49.5hp base damage.
As comparison a light missile has a base damage of 88hp.


The rest of the Light Assault Missile attributes remain the same.

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Arla Sarain
#2 - 2015-05-17 12:30:53 UTC
Are rockets not fine?

They apply full damage to webbed AB frigs with links, or something, have no tracking issues and great damage-to-range ratio, only bested by beams.

Rockets are cheat. Only thing more cheat are drones.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3 - 2015-05-17 12:40:43 UTC
Rockets just don't sound that intimidating. Maybe you don't fly Caldari but my favorite 'birds' need to get in scram range first to do that and I wanted to give javelin ones a little more pffffshhhh.

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4 - 2015-05-17 13:58:56 UTC
rockets is a fine as a name .. they do need some tweaks stat wise mind, like range nerf and damage buff.

light assault missiles .. should be a cruiser weapon a mix of light missiles and HAM's, would ofc need RLML's too get some nerfs too make them worth using.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2015-05-17 15:17:33 UTC
so you want to unbalance what is probably the most balanced if not the only balanced missile system?

the reason it is normally better to fit light missiles is because light missiles either need a range Nerf or an application nerf

not because rockets need a buff
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#6 - 2015-05-17 15:36:09 UTC
changing the name YES (they are guided and as such clearly not rockets) doing all that other stuff... NO
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-05-17 15:49:13 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
changing the name YES (they are guided and as such clearly not rockets) doing all that other stuff... NO


So your saying that rockets can not have any guidance systems?
"Rocket" thats used as weapon is generaly considered a missile, but it is still a rocket
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#8 - 2015-05-17 16:29:02 UTC
The rapid light launcher was called an assault launcher. So historically, it doesn't fit in my opinion.

I doubt any name would be more fitting to describe that swarm of light rockets (missiles dc) you're launching.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2015-05-17 17:08:32 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so you want to unbalance what is probably the most balanced if not the only balanced missile system?

the reason it is normally better to fit light missiles is because light missiles either need a range Nerf or an application nerf

not because rockets need a buff


Okay, so you see them as balanced and light missiles not so much. You know that I value your opinion and I am a little sad that the only missile boat I can see rockets work is not a Caldari one.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#10 - 2015-05-17 17:18:58 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
The rapid light launcher was called an assault launcher. So historically, it doesn't fit in my opinion.

I doubt any name would be more fitting to describe that swarm of light rockets (missiles dc) you're launching.


Yes I know and this was for a long time the only cruiser weapon system that didn't had too much fitting contrains on a Caracal before Retribution and before we had that rapid launcher desaster we have now.

I thought light or small assault missile launcher would fit the shorter range missiles launcher better as a name that is all.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#11 - 2015-05-17 17:22:25 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
rockets is a fine as a name .. they do need some tweaks stat wise mind, like range nerf and damage buff.

light assault missiles .. should be a cruiser weapon a mix of light missiles and HAM's, would ofc need RLML's too get some nerfs too make them worth using.


Harvey, why do you always want to nerf the range on everything?

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#12 - 2015-05-17 17:26:44 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
changing the name YES (they are guided and as such clearly not rockets) doing all that other stuff... NO


So your saying that rockets can not have any guidance systems?
"Rocket" thats used as weapon is generaly considered a missile, but it is still a rocket


Nah, that is not what she is saying. EVE used to have the catagories of 'guided' and 'unguided' missiles and rockets, hams and torpedos were 'unguided' and don't get a FOF missile and the 'guided' ones do - usually the long range ones.

Second, is the whole reason I am doing a PR campaign for the 'just rockets'.

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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-05-17 17:45:32 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
changing the name YES (they are guided and as such clearly not rockets) doing all that other stuff... NO


So your saying that rockets can not have any guidance systems?
"Rocket" thats used as weapon is generaly considered a missile, but it is still a rocket


Nah, that is not what she is saying. EVE used to have the catagories of 'guided' and 'unguided' missiles and rockets, hams and torpedos were 'unguided' and don't get a FOF missile and the 'guided' ones do - usually the long range ones.

Second, is the whole reason I am doing a PR campaign for the 'just rockets'.


Rockets, hams and torpedoes were all thecnicaly guided, they would follow the target unlike bombs (no guidance systems)
Guided Missile Precision was the name of a skill that used to only work on the long range missiles, the fuckup in name did not make the other missiles ungided. Short range missile launchers still dont have FOF missiles (Auto target)
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#14 - 2015-05-17 17:49:15 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
rockets is a fine as a name .. they do need some tweaks stat wise mind, like range nerf and damage buff.

light assault missiles .. should be a cruiser weapon a mix of light missiles and HAM's, would ofc need RLML's too get some nerfs too make them worth using.


Harvey, why do you always want to nerf the range on everything?


haha, you've noticed i've said this about missiles (bar torps) for awhile, fozzie even admitted that rockets and HAM's needed looking at ... sadly it still hasn't happened yet.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#15 - 2015-05-17 17:49:54 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rockets, hams and torpedoes were all thecnicaly guided, they would follow the target unlike bombs (no guidance systems)
Guided Missile Precision was the name of a skill that used to only work on the long range missiles, the fuckup in name did not make the other missiles ungided. Short range missile launchers still dont have FOF missiles (Auto target)


Yes, that's why I said they 'used to' as in past tense.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#16 - 2015-05-17 17:51:22 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
haha, you've noticed i've said this about missiles (bar torps) for awhile, fozzie even admitted that rockets and HAM's needed looking at ... sadly it still hasn't happened yet.


Smile yea, I noticed. I didn't say anything because I disagree but I also didn't want to sound like I was bashing you.

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This is the law of ship progression!

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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-05-17 17:56:33 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

Yes, that's why I said they 'used to' as in past tense.


Thats why i corrected it, the short range missiles were guided even if "guided missile precision" didnt not apply to them.
The only unguided missiles i can remember EvE having is bombs, rest of the missiles actualy follow the target and ofc they have some sort of guidance systems making them guided missiles
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#18 - 2015-05-17 17:59:56 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
haha, you've noticed i've said this about missiles (bar torps) for awhile, fozzie even admitted that rockets and HAM's needed looking at ... sadly it still hasn't happened yet.


Smile yea, I noticed. I didn't say anything because I disagree but I also didn't want to sound like I was bashing you.


how kind of you Smile , ofc there is nothing too disagree with, HAM's (same range as torps, broken..) rockets have range that HAM's should normally be at and thus would have too be nerfed too fit the range - size ratio.. so..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2015-05-17 18:43:42 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Are rockets not fine?

They apply full damage to webbed AB frigs with links, or something, have no tracking issues and great damage-to-range ratio, only bested by beams.

Rockets are cheat. Only thing more cheat are drones.


I agree, drones, being fitting free and not having the same issues as guns or missiles, largely break the game's design philosophy.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#20 - 2015-05-18 07:02:11 UTC
Base range on rockets is pretty terrible. Known fact.
Bonuses on speed and/or flight time stack mutliplicitively, rather than additively like optimal and fall off for turrets. Fact.
Range bonuses for rockets and light missiles are some of the strongest range bonuses available on frigates. Fact.
Rockets apply well to almost anything they can range to. Fact.
Rockets have low DPS for a close range weapon system, but make up for it in large part with consistency and purely target dependent application. Fact.

I'm not sure how to weave these facts together to get a "good" answer. I'm in favor of a slight increase in speed, say on the order of taking the base velocity to 3.2 so the t1 and faction top out @ ~4km/s with all 5s but no hull bonus or implants/links/etc. This takes their range with all 5s to about 12km, which puts them in opposition to pulses as a mid-range weapon system, trading capless weapon for a bit of applied DPS.

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