These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

TerminalDogma's declassified Project Looking Glass report
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp
#41 - 2015-05-17 11:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Feu dAstres
What of the un-matched systems?

Might they match local systems in known-space to which we do not currently have stargates?

If so, might we be able to reach these systems if we develop the ability ourselves?

These systems might hold further clues to our history previously undisturbed by looters.

They might also contain disasters like Kyonoke Pit. Caution will be necessary.
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2015-05-17 11:57:18 UTC
I have just though, what if...

it isn't actually time travel, but rather wormholes are opening towards systems that are similar to ours. Just look at this: these wormholes don't lead to all random systems all around our galaxy, but to a small set.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma
Lucky Starbase Syndicate
#43 - 2015-05-17 12:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Will Gauss
Furthermore, based on the observations made by the larger community, I got curious about the multiple matches some were noticing. I took the full dump linked above, and wrote a script that analyzes it to count the frequency by which each system shows up as a match. I was surprised to find that frequency appears logarithmic. I might conjecture that the frequency by which a given system is predictable this way. Anyway, without further conjecture, the data:

Portable Document Format version of the plot

Spreadsheet version of the plot

The graph itself, if uninterested in the whole spreadsheet.


EDIT:

Feu dAstres wrote:
What of the un-matched systems?

Might they match local systems in known-space to which we do not currently have stargates?

If so, might we be able to reach these systems if we develop the ability ourselves?

These systems might hold further clues to our history previously undisturbed by looters.

They might also contain disasters like Kyonoke Pit. Caution will be necessary.


I notice they all happen to be shattered systems. Our matching script relies on the star as a starting point, so the events that lead to the shattering of a system would throw off detection. TerminalDogma, with input from the public will be focusing next on a method by which to somehow match these systems and to analyze them for matches.
Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#44 - 2015-05-17 13:06:38 UTC
Since this report was released, i've been working extensively with Mr. Gauss.

The reason that New Eden is visible from Anoikis, is the fact that quantum entanglement of our fluid routers means, that theoretically, they'd be entangled through space OR time, and even if you did travel through time the particles would still remain entangled, and so it would appear, that even if you did move through time (as well as space relative to where New Eden is currently) then you'd get the 'echo' of the current New Eden travelling through time.

But I am currently working extensively with the TerminalDogma team, and am coming up with some interesting results.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.
Farlas Ibana
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-05-17 13:45:33 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Rena Risalo wrote:

Please learn astrophysics. And quantum physics.

In that case please feel free to show exactly why it's impossible for star systems to form in common patterns. Along with a non time travelling explanation for the aforementioned similar star systems given the depth of project compasses mapping and positioning data using several different forms of verification all giving J space a real space location relative to the Eve cluster.


Star systems are currently thought to form from a mass of dust and gas collapsing under its own gravity in the form of a Primitive Solar Nebular.

In order to have two identical systems form independently of each other, the initial PSN would have to be of the same size, the same mass, contain the same constituent materials, and even more unlikely - would need to have those materials with the same spatial distribution AND gravitational collapse effects.

In order to reach this stage, the PSN would then have had to have been formed by the supernova of Identical stars, with identical mass, burn times, and element production cycles. There are simply too many variables which would need to be the same to have any kind of natural formation or repetitive 'clumping' of matter.

Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems.

There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon.
Rena Risalo
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-05-17 14:18:16 UTC
Farlas Ibana wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Rena Risalo wrote:

Please learn astrophysics. And quantum physics.

In that case please feel free to show exactly why it's impossible for star systems to form in common patterns. Along with a non time travelling explanation for the aforementioned similar star systems given the depth of project compasses mapping and positioning data using several different forms of verification all giving J space a real space location relative to the Eve cluster.


Star systems are currently thought to form from a mass of dust and gas collapsing under its own gravity in the form of a Primitive Solar Nebular.

In order to have two identical systems form independently of each other, the initial PSN would have to be of the same size, the same mass, contain the same constituent materials, and even more unlikely - would need to have those materials with the same spatial distribution AND gravitational collapse effects.

In order to reach this stage, the PSN would then have had to have been formed by the supernova of Identical stars, with identical mass, burn times, and element production cycles. There are simply too many variables which would need to be the same to have any kind of natural formation or repetitive 'clumping' of matter.

Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems.

There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon.



I see people have started to take the potatoes out of their heads.

Now we are getting somewhere.
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp
#47 - 2015-05-17 16:04:09 UTC
Will Gauss wrote:

I notice they all happen to be shattered systems. Our matching script relies on the star as a starting point, so the events that lead to the shattering of a system would throw off detection. TerminalDogma, with input from the public will be focusing next on a method by which to somehow match these systems and to analyze them for matches.

Might we not use their relative positions to otherwise catalogued systems to predict the also relative locations of un-connected local systems to systems that are connected in our current gate network?
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma
Lucky Starbase Syndicate
#48 - 2015-05-17 16:11:34 UTC
Feu dAstres wrote:
Will Gauss wrote:

I notice they all happen to be shattered systems. Our matching script relies on the star as a starting point, so the events that lead to the shattering of a system would throw off detection. TerminalDogma, with input from the public will be focusing next on a method by which to somehow match these systems and to analyze them for matches.

Might we not use their relative positions to otherwise catalogued systems to predict the also relative locations of un-connected local systems to systems that are connected in our current gate network?


From what I understand of the question, the old Galileo method of using starbases to measure distance no longer works as of when the shattered systems were discovered. So, we have no idea where physically the shattered systems are and welcome any suggestions as to how this could be determined.
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp
#49 - 2015-05-17 16:40:07 UTC
How ... inconvenient ...

We will need to direct our employees to construct our own very large arrays and proceed to develop mapping capabilties and databases loyal to capsuleers and not under the control of The Inner Circle.

I have heard the phrase "That's classified." too many times.
Halfrek Foley
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-05-17 17:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Halfrek Foley
Rena Risalo wrote:
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
J-space was created by some entity for the purpose of planning a galactic invasion.

Yes, there is the massive costs and astronomical, no pun intended, scale of materials needed.


If you can create star systems, why would you need to invade new ones? Building them just to simulate invading them is simply not cost efficient.



Exactly. What remains is however shocking, whatever the truth turns out to be. Wormholes to a galaxy that just happens to connect to systems that have almost exact matches to our own? Thats too much of a coincidence for me to discount time travel/parallel universe idea. Nothing else really explains it. One thing we could do is try to see where the shattered wormhole systems parallel to (im betting near carolines star) , and where in the j space the eve gate wound up.


New Eden system would be a parallel to J130854 and J122331.
Rena Risalo
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-05-17 18:31:55 UTC
Halfrek Foley wrote:
Rena Risalo wrote:
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
J-space was created by some entity for the purpose of planning a galactic invasion.

Yes, there is the massive costs and astronomical, no pun intended, scale of materials needed.


If you can create star systems, why would you need to invade new ones? Building them just to simulate invading them is simply not cost efficient.



Exactly. What remains is however shocking, whatever the truth turns out to be. Wormholes to a galaxy that just happens to connect to systems that have almost exact matches to our own? Thats too much of a coincidence for me to discount time travel/parallel universe idea. Nothing else really explains it. One thing we could do is try to see where the shattered wormhole systems parallel to (im betting near carolines star) , and where in the j space the eve gate wound up.


New Eden system would be a parallel to J130854 and J122331.



They do not seem parallel. New eden system has one planet, J130854 has 7 as does J122331. However J122331 and J130854 seem to be parallels to *each other*.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#52 - 2015-05-17 20:10:19 UTC
Farlas Ibana wrote:

Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems.

There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon.

Except they aren't identical. They have the same planet counts and same moon counts. And vaguely the same orbitals. They aren't the same materials on each planet, they aren't identical orbits. So.... they are 'similar'. To actually use the correct word.

Also Thera at least has been measured using Aura's route indicators as a guide and seems to be in the same area of space as the other systems, a mere 1200ly from us.
Farlas Ibana
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-05-18 00:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Farlas Ibana
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Farlas Ibana wrote:

Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems.

There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon.

Except they aren't identical. They have the same planet counts and same moon counts. And vaguely the same orbitals. They aren't the same materials on each planet, they aren't identical orbits. So.... they are 'similar'. To actually use the correct word.

Also Thera at least has been measured using Aura's route indicators as a guide and seems to be in the same area of space as the other systems, a mere 1200ly from us.


Even so, the similarities are to close to be 'natural'. the previous explanation only put through the first two stages of system formation - and as such I was attempting to simplify the process, and yet show naturally formed similarities simply do not happen. The next stages of planetary development involve planetisimals, accretion and collision. We are basically talking about a game of cosmic pool with bits flying around the 'table', colliding and spinning off in all directions.

Again, there are just too many variables for similar systems of same number of planets and moons, relatively similar orbits. . . . . this added to the earlier requirements of the similarities in PSN. Its just not possible under every law of physics and planetary formation to have such matches occur naturally.

In terms of "They aren't the same materials on each planet", how do we know the materials are not the same? Just because the planetary type may have evolved - lava to barren, as indicated above - it does not mean the general planet composition is not the same - im not going to get into chondritic planetary models or differentiated Vs undifferentiated planetary bodies!!

As for the 1200ly apart, it still pretty much in our own back yard when an average galaxy is approx 100,000 ly wide.
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#54 - 2015-05-18 15:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
Rena Risalo wrote:
Halfrek Foley wrote:
New Eden system would be a parallel to J130854 and J122331.
They do not seem parallel. New eden system has one planet, J130854 has 7 as does J122331. However J122331 and J130854 seem to be parallels to *each other*.
Look at the stars of those systems. and the first planet, and compare them with the New Eden system. I think it's plausible that they are theoretically as similar as the other "twins", and that the EVE Gate may have had something to do with the missing planets.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#55 - 2015-05-18 16:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
deleted. I didn't see the appendix

In other news, maybe we are the experiment and the Sleepers are the scientists.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-05-18 19:55:10 UTC
Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma
Lucky Starbase Syndicate
#57 - 2015-05-19 22:01:53 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get

If this is true I will love you forever because we have no method of mapping the shattered systems onto our existing Galileo map of the rest of Anoikis. I'm sending you 100M if this turns out to work. It'll take us a bit to get set up, but this is beautiful if it does.
Andi Onthatop
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#58 - 2015-05-19 22:51:27 UTC
You said the shattered systems are currently unmatched.

I know that they have no moons, so you can't compare based on the moon numbers, however they do have orbit distances. Have you tried comparing just based on planet orbit distance?
Stig Elendil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-05-23 02:57:12 UTC
Will Gauss wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get

If this is true I will love you forever because we have no method of mapping the shattered systems onto our existing Galileo map of the rest of Anoikis. I'm sending you 100M if this turns out to work. It'll take us a bit to get set up, but this is beautiful if it does.


I'm absolutely not a cyno specialist, i'm just a space traveler and went few times in wh. Once in a fleet i had the pleasure and honor to talk with the Fleet Commander that was kindly explaining how (in simple terms) a fleet was working and also the differences between wh (even if i knew few basics). But i asked him a simple question, or should say more a remark, to what he said to the few people that were there with me. it was that remark : "you mean it's impossible to have hotdrop there ?" and he answered me by the affirmative, no such military techniques possible in the wh.
As i'm not myself a specialist i can't affirm 100% this is true but coming from a Fleet Commander i think it must be the case.
Anyway it's raising others questions : is it possible to light a cyno from a wh to another one ? At the time of my question, shattered ones hadn't appeared and Thera wasn't accessible it could be interesting to test if lighting cyno in shattered ones is possible (of course going to them or just between them) and maybe between shattered ones and usual wh.

My apologies if my answer is raising few other points but i was hoping to help as much as i could.
Halfrek Foley
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-05-23 03:08:36 UTC
Stig Elendil wrote:
Will Gauss wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get

If this is true I will love you forever because we have no method of mapping the shattered systems onto our existing Galileo map of the rest of Anoikis. I'm sending you 100M if this turns out to work. It'll take us a bit to get set up, but this is beautiful if it does.


I'm absolutely not a cyno specialist, i'm just a space traveler and went few times in wh. Once in a fleet i had the pleasure and honor to talk with the Fleet Commander that was kindly explaining how (in simple terms) a fleet was working and also the differences between wh (even if i knew few basics). But i asked him a simple question, or should say more a remark, to what he said to the few people that were there with me. it was that remark : "you mean it's impossible to have hotdrop there ?" and he answered me by the affirmative, no such military techniques possible in the wh.
As i'm not myself a specialist i can't affirm 100% this is true but coming from a Fleet Commander i think it must be the case.
Anyway it's raising others questions : is it possible to light a cyno from a wh to another one ? At the time of my question, shattered ones hadn't appeared and Thera wasn't accessible it could be interesting to test if lighting cyno in shattered ones is possible (of course going to them or just between them) and maybe between shattered ones and usual wh.

My apologies if my answer is raising few other points but i was hoping to help as much as i could.


Yes, it is possible to generate cynosural fields in Anoikis.