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Do not train to fly battleships

Author
Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#461 - 2015-06-27 16:19:55 UTC
dor amwar wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:


stuff




bs might still have a role in a few places, but i think the role of many ships were replaced by t3 ships long ago. they can be fast, gank, tank, multi-role ... just depends on how you fit them. t3 doesn't have a role, they just take the space of others because they can do x better than that class of ship and still do y... do the damage of a bs, but still be as fast as a cruiser, be as fast as a frigate, and do the damage of a bc. yes, more expensive, but isk doesn't matter anymore.



You can use a multi-role ship for plenty of things, but your toolbox has many tools in it. Each tool has uses that it excels at. Each class of ship has it's uses, and when utilized by a craftsman who is truly masterful in that particular tool... well, it can produce beautiful results.

The T3 ships do not render the other ship classes obsolete so much as provide a sort of 'multi-tool' which can be employed when you lack the ideal tool, or moreso, craftsman for the job. They let you do more with less pilots, yes. They also are not as well suited as the tools they try to emulate for the jobs at hand. They're plenty powerful, but to say that they supplant the ships they try to emulate is not wholly accurate... almost as good isn't good enough in many circumstances.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#462 - 2015-06-27 21:26:28 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
dor amwar wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:


stuff




bs might still have a role in a few places, but i think the role of many ships were replaced by t3 ships long ago. they can be fast, gank, tank, multi-role ... just depends on how you fit them. t3 doesn't have a role, they just take the space of others because they can do x better than that class of ship and still do y... do the damage of a bs, but still be as fast as a cruiser, be as fast as a frigate, and do the damage of a bc. yes, more expensive, but isk doesn't matter anymore.



You can use a multi-role ship for plenty of things, but your toolbox has many tools in it. Each tool has uses that it excels at. Each class of ship has it's uses, and when utilized by a craftsman who is truly masterful in that particular tool... well, it can produce beautiful results.

The T3 ships do not render the other ship classes obsolete so much as provide a sort of 'multi-tool' which can be employed when you lack the ideal tool, or moreso, craftsman for the job. They let you do more with less pilots, yes. They also are not as well suited as the tools they try to emulate for the jobs at hand. They're plenty powerful, but to say that they supplant the ships they try to emulate is not wholly accurate... almost as good isn't good enough in many circumstances.


Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#463 - 2015-06-28 03:03:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus.
I would think that force recon would be a given, since Tengu or any strategic cruiser does not have the d-scan immunity benefit. All depends what you are doing with them though I suppose.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#464 - 2015-06-28 05:06:42 UTC
Webvan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus.
I would think that force recon would be a given, since Tengu or any strategic cruiser does not have the d-scan immunity benefit. All depends what you are doing with them though I suppose.


Fleet work. A fleet of rooks vs slippery petes is a lot of dead rooks.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#465 - 2015-06-29 09:56:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Webvan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus.
I would think that force recon would be a given, since Tengu or any strategic cruiser does not have the d-scan immunity benefit. All depends what you are doing with them though I suppose.


Fleet work. A fleet of rooks vs slippery petes is a lot of dead rooks.


For the purposes of this hypothetical exercise, can we imagine that bombers have been nerfed appropriately?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#466 - 2015-06-29 12:25:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
dor amwar wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:


stuff




bs might still have a role in a few places, but i think the role of many ships were replaced by t3 ships long ago. they can be fast, gank, tank, multi-role ... just depends on how you fit them. t3 doesn't have a role, they just take the space of others because they can do x better than that class of ship and still do y... do the damage of a bs, but still be as fast as a cruiser, be as fast as a frigate, and do the damage of a bc. yes, more expensive, but isk doesn't matter anymore.



You can use a multi-role ship for plenty of things, but your toolbox has many tools in it. Each tool has uses that it excels at. Each class of ship has it's uses, and when utilized by a craftsman who is truly masterful in that particular tool... well, it can produce beautiful results.

The T3 ships do not render the other ship classes obsolete so much as provide a sort of 'multi-tool' which can be employed when you lack the ideal tool, or moreso, craftsman for the job. They let you do more with less pilots, yes. They also are not as well suited as the tools they try to emulate for the jobs at hand. They're plenty powerful, but to say that they supplant the ships they try to emulate is not wholly accurate... almost as good isn't good enough in many circumstances.


Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus.


Maybe not a fleet, but the mating call of a bait raven can be reisted by no man.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#467 - 2015-06-29 14:24:43 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


Maybe not a fleet, but the mating call of a bait raven can be reisted by no man.

This is true and hilarious but t3s are way overpowered for cruisers and still need their savage beating with the nerfbat.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#468 - 2015-06-29 18:53:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:


Maybe not a fleet, but the mating call of a bait raven can be reisted by no man.

This is true and hilarious but t3s are way overpowered for cruisers and still need their savage beating with the nerfbat.


Agreed. I made a moral decision early on in the wh T3 era to not fly them. I do occaisionally (no one is perfect).

As to your challenge.... I would say condors can out do tegus at being condors. That's all I can think of though. There are probably a couple of T2 caldari frig fleets better than the equivalent tengu build. Pulling in price point and the dreaded SP loss I'd say caldari frigs can outperform in a few instances.

Here's the real question, and you can only pick one. Would you rather

1. Sentries become BS only weapons to finally balance all that crap out
2. Beat t3s like the were the copy machine in Office Space (most graphically violent movie scene - ever)

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#469 - 2015-06-30 09:34:23 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


1. Sentries become BS only weapons to finally balance all that crap out
2. Beat t3s like the were the copy machine in Office Space (most graphically violent movie scene - ever)



I would slap the ishtar silly any day of the week. T3 are stupidly overpowered but sentry ishtars are a plague that saps the fun out of everything they go near.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#470 - 2015-06-30 15:47:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:


1. Sentries become BS only weapons to finally balance all that crap out
2. Beat t3s like the were the copy machine in Office Space (most graphically violent movie scene - ever)



I would slap the ishtar silly any day of the week. T3 are stupidly overpowered but sentry ishtars are a plague that saps the fun out of everything they go near.



I look at it differently. The ishtar was fine (if not underused and in need of some small loving). Then the drone modules were added to the game. Soon after that the ishtar and archon fleets became the 'go to' ships (the archon was already in a good spot the addition of modules buffing drones just put it over the top). Nothing on the ishtar changed to make it OP. The introduction of the drone modules are what did it. Not wanting to get in the way of progress (drone modules added some new depth to the game) I'm in favor of taking the sentries away from all but BS platforms. The istar nor the archon need a good slapping, the sentry drone just needs to be limited to a good home (that would be BS hulls).

I notice you didn't say ishtars are a plague, but you did say sentry ishtars.


Other than that I agree. Fix the sentry problem and then go to work on the unfun T3 cruiser doctrines.

What a nice sideways buff to BS if they were the only hull to deploy sentry drones.
Ortilus Orsides
Doomheim
#471 - 2015-07-01 04:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ortilus Orsides
The T3Cs have been around for ages now and are very popular. I'd go on the record and say they are the most enjoyable ships to fly in eve. Nerfing such ships to meet your standards Baltec1, would mean the end of eve.

Not everyone enjoys flying Fleet BSs xD.
Lilith Folkvardr
Doomheim
#472 - 2015-07-01 05:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilith Folkvardr
Okay.. I wasn't going to add to this thread but I just have to say a few things..

Firstly OP, 'batlec1' is known throughout the game as an incredible Battleship pilot for PvP (An a particular Marauder that can **** a gate camp), in fact, if I am right, he even has a long running joke about the Mega, where he will take it anywhere. Adding to that, he has more experience then you do, not just in Battleship hulls, but in the game as a whole.

Secondly, 'Paranoid Lloyd' has more experience in PvP then you ever will, and has valuable knowledge, so, good on you for pissing on that, great idea.. *Sarcasm*

Thirdly, there are also a lot of pilots whom have commented here who, if you took the time to check their zKillboards, you would see that at least 2 of them have solo'd in a BS hull, one gettings 9 kills against a Cruiser fleet, and oh.. Didn't die, yeah..

Fourthly, look at YouTube, there are tones of pilots who fly a BS into Null or Low Sec, get jumped on by an entire fleet, and either A, **** the entire fleet solo, or B, **** 90% of the fleet and die in glorious flames, A few honorable mentions is Mr Hyde113 from Black Legion, one of the 2 reasons for me becoming (On my old account, and spec'ing for it on this character) a solo PvP'er in BS hulls, then there is Otto Von Bismark (The other reason), his work with the Tyhoon is amazing, there is also a few by Johny Pew too.

If you even took one look at this you would understand that BS can be incredible, a Frigate or Cruiser can be incredibly amazing and effective, in the hands of someone who is skilled and trained into that type of ship, but give it to someone unskilled and untrained for it? It will die to anything, same goes for a BS, and stop saying that you know what you are talking about, I looked at your zKillboard, and your fits are rubbish, and T1, not even Meta 4 stuff for the majority of it, you, Mr. OP, have not the slightest idea, based on your zKillboard (And if this is an Alt, then please, show us your main with all this knowledge and skill you say you have), that you don't know the first thing about BS PvP, or even PvP for that matter.

- A trained BS pilot can and will solo a fleet of Frigates/Destroyers/Cruisers.

- A BS can tank upwards of 70k EHP, which most tank fits sitting at the 150-200k EHP. (Without links Or Implants)

- A BS can, and will, volley a Frigate off the map even with only half it's damage hitting.

- A BS can, and will, out DPS, in both tank and damage, a Cruiser, and in some cases, a fleet (Depending on composition).

- A BS shortest range is the maximum range of a Frigate, with most BS being able to hit at 50-100km (Depending on Weapons).

- A BS can and will escape any situation if fit with a MWD and MJD.

- BS can and will our DPS and range and tank any, and all T3 fleets, by a massive margin.

- Some BS (Nanophoon) can out run a BC, I have even seen builds that out do a Cruiser.

- A BS can have tank, DPS, Speed, Utility, all in one package.

Now, deny these facts all you want, it is already common knowledge of those who have read this thread, that you know nothing about Battleships, and are unwilling to learn, you say that a T3 Cruiser can out tank a BS cause of speed, you are right, but can it get the same ratio of Speed, range, price, DPS, Tank, and utility? No it can not, you say a Frigate can kill a BS solo, you have never heard of a Neut, of Drones, of Missile systems, hell, do you even know what traversal is? Watch Wreaking Crew's Solo PvP tournament video, there is a amazing pilot in a Naga that can hit and destroy a Taranis, a bloody Interceptor.

All ships in EVE can be amazing, in the right hands, of a dedicated pilot, who knows how to fly it, with the skills to fly it, but since you are so stuck in your ways, I will challenge you to a duel when I get Lilith's skills up to where my old mains was (Which, btw, was under 9mil SP, Lilith was meant as a Hauling Alt, but RL reasons had to make her my main, she was my favorite) and you can have fun solo'ing my Typhoon that can perma tank a 1100 DPS and dish out 545, while being able to Web, TP, and Neut an entire Frigates Cap in one cycle, so have fun solo'ing that in a Frigate as you claim, hell, bring a T3 Dessy and I will hit home even harder.

Mate, these people tried to help you, but you wanted to be a troll, or be a child, I haven't decided, and you threw it in there faces cause they told you were you were wrong, seriously man, we are a community and people like you, that think you know everything better then anyone else, even those who are known publicly for there skills, ruin that with your immaturity, you want to whine like a child? Buy a pink diary, write it all in there, and put your My Little Pony lock on it. If you want to find out why your fits suck, and why you are having no luck with BS, then post on the forums and get help and acknowledge it when it is given from someone with more knowledge and skill then yourself, I mean, you wouldn't argue with an electrician how to wire a switch board or with a soldier about removing a land mine if you were a fry cook, would you? Same thing applies here.

I really hope you shut up, and look at these posts, and see what people are saying, your view is that way because of your skill, experience and personality, the combined skills and experience of even half the pilots that commented is a million times what you will ever have, and all you took from all of it was what you could nit pick to try and prove to pilots much more experienced then you that you were right, which ended up making yourself look even more wrong. We are here to help, if you don't want help then don't post here and be rude to those who try and help you.

That is all.

Also, First post outside of the New Citizens forums! :D
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#473 - 2015-07-01 12:09:28 UTC
Lilith - if you ever want to play wh online - send me a mail.
Lilith Folkvardr
Doomheim
#474 - 2015-07-01 12:39:11 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lilith - if you ever want to play wh online - send me a mail.


Going to sound like a moron.. But what is WH Online? Wormholes? Who is this something different?
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#475 - 2015-07-01 13:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Lilith Folkvardr wrote:
Okay.. I wasn't going to add to this thread but I just have to say a few things..


Welcome to the fun that is 'Ships & Modules'

We're all already igonring what the OP says lol.... just so happens its actually kicked off a constructive discusion on BS's Big smile
So chillax Smile the OP is a troll try not to feed it too much.

Lilith Folkvardr wrote:
- A BS can and will escape any situation if fit with a MWD and MJD.


This just isnt true Blink One Scram will ruin your day

No Worries

Lilith Folkvardr
Doomheim
#476 - 2015-07-01 13:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilith Folkvardr
Quote:
This just isnt true Blink One Scram will ruin your day


I am yet to meet a Frigate that can keep me Scrammed when I am using Rapid Heavies :D let alone one of their friends to fill that job after his buddy died in 2 hits, haha! :D I love my Typhoon :P

Though I have had issues with brick fits with Scrams on a Cruiser hull, bloody Mallers..
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#477 - 2015-07-01 15:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Lilith Folkvardr wrote:
Quote:
This just isnt true Blink One Scram will ruin your day


I am yet to meet a Frigate that can keep me Scrammed when I am using Rapid Heavies :D let alone one of their friends to fill that job after his buddy died in 2 hits, haha! :D I love my Typhoon :P

Though I have had issues with brick fits with Scrams on a Cruiser hull, bloody Mallers..


Unfortunatly cruisers are a thing, which is one of the main arguments with BS's. Also you seem to be talking solo and smaller size fights... peeps only need to keep a scram on you long enough untill theyre friends arrive lol

[Stiletto, Fleet]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Coreli C-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
[empty high slot]

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

I have a similar fit phoon too, so i know what your saying, but when you take it into a fight with say 20 other pilots... the arguement for cruisers or frigates becomes greater.

No Worries

Lilith Folkvardr
Doomheim
#478 - 2015-07-01 23:32:05 UTC
Quote:
Unfortunatly cruisers are a thing, which is one of the main arguments with BS's. Also you seem to be talking solo and smaller size fights... peeps only need to keep a scram on you long enough untill theyre friends arrive lol

[Stiletto, Fleet]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Coreli C-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
[empty high slot]

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

I have a similar fit phoon too, so i know what your saying, but when you take it into a fight with say 20 other pilots... the arguement for cruisers or frigates becomes greater.


It isn't Cruisers in general, I have no problem slaughtering them with my build, it is just bloody brick fit Mallers, haha! Always struggle to remove them before his BS friends warp in, haha! But my build isn't meant to take on Cruisers like that, this is for small Frigate/Destroyer fleets I see so much in Low Sec FW area's, and it is just a rapetrain in it's effectiveness.

That Stiletto looks like a good ship, however, given it is using a Scram, it has to be within 11.3km I think, my heated Web can and will catch it, that is when it pops, in 2 volleys unless your fast on the ASB, then maybe 3, not to worried about Frigates Scramming me like I said, I can handle them, it is just Maller bricks, haha!

Also, good to see a Typhoon pilot, all my mates tell me it is the worst ship, but I love it for PvP, amazing application and survivability, never tried a FI Typhoon though.. To expensive for my tastes, that and I don't want to pilot FI stuff, for RP reasons at least with Lilith :) that and less people will engage a FI i feel, which would be sad :(
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#479 - 2015-07-01 23:33:43 UTC
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
The T3Cs have been around for ages now and are very popular. I'd go on the record and say they are the most enjoyable ships to fly in eve. Nerfing such ships to meet your standards Baltec1, would mean the end of eve.

Not everyone enjoys flying Fleet BSs xD.


No it won't. T3s are way overpowered and have needed a savage nerf for years now.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#480 - 2015-07-02 17:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Lilith Folkvardr wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunatly cruisers are a thing, which is one of the main arguments with BS's. Also you seem to be talking solo and smaller size fights... peeps only need to keep a scram on you long enough untill theyre friends arrive lol

[Stiletto, Fleet]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Coreli C-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
[empty high slot]

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

I have a similar fit phoon too, so i know what your saying, but when you take it into a fight with say 20 other pilots... the arguement for cruisers or frigates becomes greater.


It isn't Cruisers in general, I have no problem slaughtering them with my build, it is just bloody brick fit Mallers, haha! Always struggle to remove them before his BS friends warp in, haha! But my build isn't meant to take on Cruisers like that, this is for small Frigate/Destroyer fleets I see so much in Low Sec FW area's, and it is just a rapetrain in it's effectiveness.

That Stiletto looks like a good ship, however, given it is using a Scram, it has to be within 11.3km I think, my heated Web can and will catch it, that is when it pops, in 2 volleys unless your fast on the ASB, then maybe 3, not to worried about Frigates Scramming me like I said, I can handle them, it is just Maller bricks, haha!

Also, good to see a Typhoon pilot, all my mates tell me it is the worst ship, but I love it for PvP, amazing application and survivability, never tried a FI Typhoon though.. To expensive for my tastes, that and I don't want to pilot FI stuff, for RP reasons at least with Lilith :) that and less people will engage a FI i feel, which would be sad :(


Ive flown pvp FI phoon. Pretty beast with RHML. Better than t1 phoon tbh, because you get more damage per clip. Where as a RoF bonus just empties your clip faster, doesnt heat as well etc. FI gets more tank than t1, plus a 2nd heavy neut. Between 2 heavy neuts and MJD, its hard to hold it down. Not to mention being able to field 5 heavies and still have room for a set of med/lights.

Im confident my phoon could obliterate that stiletto. Its killed pre-nerf 10mn t3ds no problem.