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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

First post First post
Author
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#501 - 2015-05-14 14:03:48 UTC
im just going to fawking laugh hard when fozzie and ccp rise.. (yeah you rise don't think we forgot about you) when they try to show pretty charts and pies avoiding the incredible amount of drop subs due to stations blowing up and folks losing their things.

you have not once provided any information on why one should even keep sov.. after these changes go in..

you're making it to where blobs upon blobs will blow up stations just for the hell of it..


cant wait to see that Pie Chart of cancelations.. lets see if your faction ships and fuzzy-sov keeps subs up.

good luck with that bruh...
Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
#502 - 2015-05-14 14:12:36 UTC
Maybe i'm wrong about this, but as I understand it, these structures will be anchorable anywhere in a system. So for a busy system there may be dozens if not hundreds of individual structures, and if present history is a guide, many of which will be abandoned. Its hard enough now figuring out where a player is in a system; with the new system how are you supposed to find people? Doesn't this new ccp proposal cause a major break down in the idea of eve being a web with choke points where folk can be located?
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#503 - 2015-05-14 14:29:35 UTC
Ocean Ormand wrote:
Maybe i'm wrong about this, but as I understand it, these structures will be anchorable anywhere in a system. So for a busy system there may be dozens if not hundreds of individual structures, and if present history is a guide, many of which will be abandoned. Its hard enough now figuring out where a player is in a system; with the new system how are you supposed to find people? Doesn't this new ccp proposal cause a major break down in the idea of eve being a web with choke points where folk can be located?


Abandoned ones will be easier to destroy, since we're switching from DPS requirement to a flat time requirement.

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
im just going to fawking laugh hard when fozzie and ccp rise.. (yeah you rise don't think we forgot about you) when they try to show pretty charts and pies avoiding the incredible amount of drop subs due to stations blowing up and folks losing their things.

you have not once provided any information on why one should even keep sov.. after these changes go in..

you're making it to where blobs upon blobs will blow up stations just for the hell of it..


cant wait to see that Pie Chart of cancelations.. lets see if your faction ships and fuzzy-sov keeps subs up.

good luck with that bruh...


"Captain, I've run out of jars for all the tears, what do I do now?!"

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#504 - 2015-05-14 14:44:40 UTC
I'm a little bi-curious.

When trying to reinforce a structure you use an entosis link

The structure reinforces and we switch to capture the flag in order to "take/Destroy" the structure.

The capture points are spread over the constellation.

In W-Space, how do you spread out the capture points?
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#505 - 2015-05-14 14:46:01 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


"Captain, I've run out of jars for all the tears, what do I do now?!"


"Drink them straight from the source, Scotty"
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#506 - 2015-05-14 14:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Romel Erata wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

2. I think we will show them on the onboard scanner to warp to.


I haven't read the blog in its entirely yet, but how are these structures going to be deployed anywhere, if the only available points are the warpable solar system objects like the sun, moons, planets and all intersecting lines between them, i.e. someone will ALWAYS pass your structure in warp as it lies on the warp path between two objects, unless you deploy something like 2000 km off a planet's warp in point.

In other words, you can't have positioning above the solar system's plane, unless you have old Deep safe spot bookmarks from many moons ago. Sad


You can get to all sorts of interesting positions with careful bookmark-warp-bookmarking.


Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but does this mean I can set essentially a stationary pipe-bomb with an XL Citadel and a bubble?


Dat is a good point. Smile

"Oh sorry, our new-POS-system-deathstar-station-thingy appears to be in the way of your travel direction."Pirate

The Future is UP!

CCP pls ༼ つ ◕_◕༽つ gib warp 2 own Scanner Probe
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#507 - 2015-05-14 14:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Philip Ogtaulmolfi
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I'm a little bi-curious.

When trying to reinforce a structure you use an entosis link

The structure reinforces and we switch to capture the flag in order to "take/Destroy" the structure.

The capture points are spread over the constellation.

In W-Space, how do you spread out the capture points?


Interesting question. Connected wormholes?

Then, the fleet taking the node in another wh could be cut off, by accident or on purpouse.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#508 - 2015-05-14 14:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
I feel like I'm missing a couple of puzzle pieces.

Do you need sov to anchor these?
If you lose sov what happens to them?
Do these have to be captured to take sov?

If they have nothing to do with Sov, does that mean that someone can anchor them all over your space to have a place to screw with you from?

It looks to me like you're designing your way in a circle back to Dominion sov, only worse. Still got multiple reinforcement to grind through, only now we have a tiny little attack window to do it, and, you've given the ability to have multiple windows, giving defenders ample tools to play attack-window-fu.

I think you started out with an idea that would have shaken things up, but then the bowing and scraping to the powers that be started, and it's been watered down to the point that it'll change nothing. Are you really that afraid of making the big players mad?

Your game is slowly dying because of stasis. You have entrenched power structures that control the game, and a growing perception that we've reached the game's end-state. You'd better look to that if you want to re-energize your player base. This isn't it.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#509 - 2015-05-14 14:57:25 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I'm a little bi-curious.

When trying to reinforce a structure you use an entosis link

The structure reinforces and we switch to capture the flag in order to "take/Destroy" the structure.

The capture points are spread over the constellation.

In W-Space, how do you spread out the capture points?


Interesting question. Connected wormholes?

Then, the fleet taking the node in another wh could be cut off, by accident or on porpouse.


You don't do silly Sov things.

You RF it.

You nuke it.
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#510 - 2015-05-14 15:03:36 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


You don't do silly Sov things.

You RF it.

You nuke it.


Perhaps is time for a survey among the wh dwellers to decide if structures should be limited to medium citadel only conquered/destroyed by hp grinding.
EnternalSoul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#511 - 2015-05-14 15:04:09 UTC
Deep Nine wrote:
Quote:
XL are going to be as hard to build as a player owned station. I think that fact alone will limit them.


Yes, it would Limit them specifically to huge alliances and powerful corporations, which money and resources are no object for.

They would be mass manufactured and inevitably it would be abused by organizations to augment and solidify their already staggering power, forever sealing null against any type of incursion from almost any type of outside force, not grand fathered in.



It sounds like to me that you want to grant the ability to a small corp to go take an hold SOV in null sec.
Yes it takes a large Alliance to take and Hold SOV in null sec and it takes a lot of recourse to build the current Player Owned Station (this is why there is not a station in every system in null sec).

Making these limited to one per region will not do anything but make them worthless. It will not solve the Big guy versus the little guy Issue that it seams you really have.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#512 - 2015-05-14 15:44:25 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Chirality Tisteloin wrote:
Good evening,

Question for clarification: docking in Citadels means the same as using the invulnerability link, right?

very interesting concepts! Thanx for sharing the blog.


No docking puts you inside and safe, but you still see the grid outside the station.

The invulnerability link (we need a new name for this, taking suggestions) provides security while you are undocked and mobile around the structure.

The invulnerability link, what to call it?

Out of Phase. Could create lore to indicate a phase generator that protects everything within its sphere of influence by taking it slightly
out of phase from the space around it, rendering the objects invulnerable to physical attack. Only a mental link via Entosis module can pose a threat.

Players abbreviate it as OOPS (Out of Phase Sphere).
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#513 - 2015-05-14 15:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
I rather like the concept of being able to hire Interbus to move large volumes of materials out of a threatened structure. Of course, ideally you would start this process when you learn your structure is likely to be under attack instead of already under attack or after it has fallen and "asset safety" kicks in.

In fact, it's well past time that the Interbus service was finally fleshed out in the EVE universe, and done in a way that makes it valuable to both the defender and the attacker... as well as those that just need a hand in a tight situation.

Defender: You can (for a fee) have Interbus move your bulky assets, while actual players would be the wise choice for moving the truly high value cargo. When I say "move" I mean actually put it in ships and move it, not have it magically appear in the new location. These vessels should be destructible, defend-able, select-able (you have the choice of fewer large vessels of many smaller and more evasive vessels), and either take a number of random routes or follow a route you specify.

Attacker: You should be able to hunt these Interbus vessels down and destroy them. This should be challenging but possible (depending on the options chosen by the person that hires them) as they could be either very evasive or very well defended (by either players or by AI controlled escorts). PVE meets PVP indeed, possibly even an alternative to Burner missions in a way.

Generic use: While it should not be the best method for a solo industrialist to procure materials or move merchandise, it should eventually be made to be possible. Yes, unless you are smart your profit margins should be razor thin, but imagine the level of activity (and the impression of a vibrantly busy universe) that would be generated. Player run freight corps should still be the better option in most cases... or if necessary consider the concept of allowing those players run freight corps to act as agents of Interbus if they wish and give them ways to optimize / improve how the mechanic works beyond what the AI would do.

Either way, options should be considered for hiring the use of this service before, during, and after a siege... as well as in the course of normal everyday operations.

Interbus has always been one of those potentially brilliant concepts in the game that has never been fleshed out. It might just be the answer needed to make "Asset Protection" work in a sensible way, that still includes an element of risk... and would require some skill on either side to see if your "Asset Protection" was effective or not.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#514 - 2015-05-14 16:01:11 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Deep Nine wrote:
Quote:
XL are going to be as hard to build as a player owned station. I think that fact alone will limit them.


Yes, it would Limit them specifically to huge alliances and powerful corperations, which money and resources are no object for.

They would be mass manufactured and inevitably it would be abused by organizations to augment and solidify their already staggering power, forever sealing null against any type of incursion from almost any type of outside force, not grand fathered in.


If using outposts, the current version of citadels, was going to be abused to reinforce hold over space people would've done it already. Your fear appears overblown


It is obvious why POS are used instead of outposts, if you are new, you should do more research.

There is little doubt the new suggested mechanic as is, is ripe for abuse, and would most definitely be taken advantage of far from just occasionally placing one. It is designed to replace the entire use of POS system in nullsec, protecting certain weakening alliances from distablization, and it would be used as such and would provide near indestructible entrenchment for the mega-alliances (solely) who are capable of building them. The idea they would, by their own self restraint, limit their use is so obsurd it requires no explanation. New ideas should benefit and be for the use of all players, not a select group.

No. This suggested feature, while it is good in concept needs to be heavily limited to prevent abuse, regulated in placement, and nerfed in its arch-godly power. Allowing them to be placed 1 per region would not only encourage conquest towards completed domination of said, but would also present it as a capital POS and a statement of authority, power, and wealth. within a given region by a given alliance.
Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#515 - 2015-05-14 16:05:50 UTC
EnternalSoul wrote:
Deep Nine wrote:
Quote:
XL are going to be as hard to build as a player owned station. I think that fact alone will limit them.


Yes, it would Limit them specifically to huge alliances and powerful corporations, which money and resources are no object for.

They would be mass manufactured and inevitably it would be abused by organizations to augment and solidify their already staggering power, forever sealing null against any type of incursion from almost any type of outside force, not grand fathered in.



It sounds like to me that you want to grant the ability to a small corp to go take an hold SOV in null sec.
Yes it takes a large Alliance to take and Hold SOV in null sec and it takes a lot of recourse to build the current Player Owned Station (this is why there is not a station in every system in null sec).

Making these limited to one per region will not do anything but make them worthless. It will not solve the Big guy versus the little guy Issue that it seams you really have.


I never suggested, or even implied, the first half of your post so it wont be responded to. Also, limiting them to one per region contradicts what you just said, herrr.

Making these limited to one per region will make them regulated, yet, even then the price can be adjusted as has been displayed many times in the past. Yes, it should be for all player use and not just for the exclusive use of current sov holders.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#516 - 2015-05-14 16:11:15 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:

I'm kinda impressed with how slyly this was done by our dear devs, keeping quiet on this stage of things so that the wormholer and small group players fully support fozziesov and sov-wands, completely ignorant of the fact they were about to get a good big bite of that lemon too.

Not sure how that's sly.

So far everything seems to be proceeding exactly as the dev blogs and dev posts have said they would.

They said ahead of time POSes are going out the window and structure grinding is being replaced with entosis.

If anyone is pissed off they didn't know about it, they should read the dev blogs and visit features and ideas discussion more often.
Fzhal
#517 - 2015-05-14 16:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fzhal
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Romel Erata wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but does this mean I can set essentially a stationary pipe-bomb with an XL Citadel and a bubble?
Dat is a good point. Smile
"Oh sorry, our new-POS-system-deathstar-station-thingy appears to be in the way of your travel direction."Pirate
The Future is UP!
CCP pls ༼ つ ◕_◕༽つ gib warp 2 own Scanner Probe

If structures have 250km range...
  • Yep, with 250km distance from from celestials/structures, Null will have gate drag bubbles into range of Citadel guns. "Yay, I can sit in my Citadel and blap passers-by with absolutely no risk!"
  • Meanwhile HS, Jita and all the trade hubs, professional war dec'ers will rush to put Citadels up near major gates and undocks...
  • Others will surround gates with their medium structures to show off their ePeen...

  • To me, the last one is the worst. TBH, what initially inspired me to subscribe to this game was when I first started roaming around. I could not help but be in awe of the beauty of the backgrounds, sparse vastness of space (solitude), and the grim determination that such a sense of solitude created. I knew I would be on my own, but felt like I had the chance to explore something no one else had (over a decade ago). I still remember that moment, vividly.
    [*] Please do not allow them to destroy the beautiful feeling of space's vastness by allowing people to anchor medium sized structures within view of gates, NPC stations, and belts... At least in High Sec...
    EnternalSoul
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #518 - 2015-05-14 16:24:01 UTC
    Deep Nine wrote:
    M1k3y Koontz wrote:
    Deep Nine wrote:
    Quote:
    XL are going to be as hard to build as a player owned station. I think that fact alone will limit them.


    Yes, it would Limit them specifically to huge alliances and powerful corperations, which money and resources are no object for.

    They would be mass manufactured and inevitably it would be abused by organizations to augment and solidify their already staggering power, forever sealing null against any type of incursion from almost any type of outside force, not grand fathered in.


    If using outposts, the current version of citadels, was going to be abused to reinforce hold over space people would've done it already. Your fear appears overblown


    It is obvious why POS are used instead of outposts, if you are new, you should do more research.

    There is little doubt the new suggested mechanic as is, is ripe for abuse, and would most definitely be taken advantage of far from just occasionally placing one. It is designed to replace the entire use of POS system in nullsec, protecting certain weakening alliances from distablization, and it would be used as such and would provide near indestructible entrenchment for the mega-alliances (solely) who are capable of building them. The idea they would, by their own self restraint, limit their use is so obsurd it requires no explanation. New ideas should benefit and be for the use of all players, not a select group.

    No. This suggested feature, while it is good in concept needs to be heavily limited to prevent abuse, regulated in placement, and nerfed in its arch-godly power. Allowing them to be placed 1 per region would not only encourage conquest towards completed domination of said, but would also present it as a capital POS and a statement of authority, power, and wealth. within a given region by a given alliance.


    XL does not replace current POSes it replaces current Player Owned Stations. The Large / Medium Replaces a POS.

    Basically I do not see a need to limit them at all. Have 300 XL in one system if you can afford to build them.
    Petrified
    Old and Petrified Syndication
    TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
    #519 - 2015-05-14 16:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
    Lena Lazair wrote:
    Petrified wrote:
    How can the Citadel be able to take care of itself in a fight and repel trolling attempts from a single player IF it requires someone to man the guns? The Dev blog implies that the guns are automated like a POS when not manned.


    The dev blog implies that if you own a citadel and are alive to use it, you can repel a solo troll 100% of the time. You don't need to be a good pilot, or have expensive ships, or be a PvP wizard... you just need to get into your citadel and push the "fire big guns make bad people go away" button.

    It in no way implies that we go back to the days of absentee landlordism where you can drop down a dozen structures that defend themselves. If you are there using the structure it will be trivial to repel anything that is not an actual attempt to take the structure. If you are not there using the structure than it will (intentionally) be vulnerable to a solo troll in a newb-ship.

    Again, occupancy-based concepts here. Provide powerful tools to people actually using an area through structures while simultaneously making it trivial to clear out crap left behind by people no longer present without requiring a giant structure HP grind.


    Which makes the Citadel essentially an immobile space ship. I would want to see more details on how the vulnerability windows will work for the structures, but essentially this detail does become problematic for the more solo oriented player.

    The other problem is the association of these structures to Lordism. Since these structures will essentially be freely deployable anywhere, there is no lordism involved in using them apart from a place to do things and keep things. The only time they will be lordism would be if they are tied to a limited resource: such as system control or moon mining.

    But the idea behind any form of automated defense is not that it is foolproof but that it is capable of defending against a fool. A single pilot is going to have a hard time taking down an existing POS, but the defenses can be soloed and eliminated and the POS itself destroyed. Likewise, all I and others are asking for from the Devs is that there is a minimal defense mechanism to prevent the random fool from sitting on the place running a link whereas a well prepared fool could.

    It is am important distinction. I am not asking that the defenses work at their optimal when no one is present, just that they work with enough effect to harass the random entosis wielding fool. As I mentioned previously: it makes sense the weapons would not perform as effectively when a capsuleer is not manning them but they should work - any programmer/designer (in game not the Devs) would be a fool to not include such basic functionality.

    Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

    Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #520 - 2015-05-14 16:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    Fzhal wrote:
    Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
    Dat is a good point. Smile
    "Oh sorry, our new-POS-system-deathstar-station-thingy appears to be in the way of your travel direction." Pirate
    The Future is UP!
    CCP pls ༼ つ ◕_◕༽つ gib warp 2 own Scanner Probe


    Meanwhile HS, Jita and all the trade hubs, professional war dec'ers will rush to put Citadels up near major gates and undocks...


    Non-issue with 1000 km from celestials deployment restriction. Smile

    Quote:
  • Null will have gate drag bubbles into range of Citadel guns. "Yay, I can sit in my Citadel and blap passers-by with absolutely no risk!"

  • Issue. Smile

    Quote:
  • Others will surround gates with their medium structures to show off their ePeen...

  • Afcourse. Cool

    Fzhal wrote:

    To me, the last one is the worst. TBH, what initially inspired me to subscribe to this game was when I first started roaming around. I could not help but be in awe of the beauty of the backgrounds, sparse vastness of space (solitude), and the grim determination that such a sense of solitude created. I knew I would be on my own, but felt like I had the chance to explore something no one else had (over a decade ago). I still remember that moment, vividly.
  • Please do not allow them to destroy the beautiful feeling of space's vastness by allowing people to anchor medium sized structures within view of gates, NPC stations, and belts... At least in High Sec...

  • Is heart of the Empire - the tradelanes.

    uw0tm8