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cruisers and battleships. do they speed tank equivalent sized guns?
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Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#1 - 2015-05-12 14:34:36 UTC
Does AB or MWD help tank missiles or turrets of the equivalent sized weaponry? Heavy missiles vs cruisers, or large turrets vs battleships, for instance?

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#2 - 2015-05-12 16:57:24 UTC
I'm sure that someone could link a nano/snaked/rigged,I-stabbed Typhoon, that could outrun a torpedo or something.

But for the most part, battleships don't speed tank anything. About the best they can do is range tank, either as a sniper platform, or just pilot awareness. Stay 20 km from blasters, or 30 km away from torpedos.
You can possibly get *under the guns* of 800 autocannons or pulse fits, and have an affect on their tracking, but good gunnery pilots can fix that.
After burner won't do it. MWD blooms your signature and is kind of anti-productive.

Cruisers on the other hand...
Lots of cruisers can be fit for amazing speed.
T2 variants, and pirate variants can go FAST. Add tracking disrupters or just be a good pilot and you start to be able to predict the outcome of most fights.
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#3 - 2015-05-12 17:23:22 UTC
So is it fair to say that sig radius and afterburners or mwd scale worse the larger in ship class you go, for avoiding shots from enemy ships of the same class?

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#4 - 2015-05-12 18:30:42 UTC
Khorvek wrote:
So is it fair to say that sig radius and afterburners or mwd scale worse the larger in ship class you go, for avoiding shots from enemy ships of the same class?


I think it's fair to say that an MWD helps a BS more than an AB does. And sig radius isn't part of the decision.
I don't think either one will change the incoming damage *when in range* of the enemy ship.
For avoiding shots, in my opinion, the MWD is the best fit for GTFO and dictating range.

If you're trying to get some 'over all, covers all' generalization, I don't think there is one.
Most ships can be fit several ways for several purposes.
armor tank
shield tank
active tank
buffer tank
passive regen tank
sig tank
speed tank
DPS tank
RR/Logi tank
not primary tank
I think you fit with a purpose/plan in mind, and hope the hostile environment fits your intended use.
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#5 - 2015-05-12 21:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Khorvek
I can understand that, yet there's some form of balance in smaller ships regarding hit rate vs speed. An afterburner in a smaller ship increases chances to miss because of increased angular velocity. I was wondering if any increase velocity from a single battleship to another battleship has the same effects, or is the tracking on battleship guns and the explosion velocity on torps too high for any AB fitted to a target battleship to mitigate any damage?

In the smaller classes, or when a larger gun is tracking a smaller ship, sig radius definitely matters. If you have a 200 sig radius in a frig but can only move 100 m/s from webs, you're going to get hit badly by small guns, and even cruiser guns. All guns have a signature resolution, and the apoc has a 380 radius compared to the standard 400 resolution of battleship guns, while the abaddon has something like 470 radius. This suggests a penalty to tracking against an apoc, and a bonus to tracking against an abaddon, for battleship sized guns, but I'm wondering if it really matters? A stationary target gets hit 99% of the time by guns with any signature resolution, and since battleships don't exactly go fast already, and receive a small absolute velocity boost from ABs compared to something like frigs, I wonder if the tracking, sig radius vs resolution, and angular velocity still matter at that size of ship class.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#6 - 2015-05-13 04:19:32 UTC
Speed tanking (in terms of messing up angular, not range tanking or avoiding missile damage with raw speed) within the class is generally quite challenging, frigates and to a much lesser extent Cruisers are the only ones (not counting T3Ds) who can speed tank within their own class of weapons, even then you need to have a significant range control advantage over your opponent (if you're only slightly faster you can't really use tight orbit tactics to mitigate damage since you can't generate enough angular). Additionally, you have to consider long range vs short range guns, long range guns are obviously much easier to speed tank due to the inherently bad tracking. However it's only really in the frigate meta where long range guns are used within scram range and thus susceptible to being out tracked, at long point distances it's much harder to avoid damage from even long range guns since there is much more freedom for controlling transversal.

In your battleship scenario I'd say it is definitely possible for an AB battleship with a decent speed and low ish sig (Typhoon for example) to get under the guns of a long range gun ship like a 425mm Rokh. You could probably even get under non tracking bonused Mega Pulse Lasers in a fast AB Battleship assuming you aren't webbed. However these scenarios almost never happen so 'speed tanking' with Battleships against other Battleships isn't really a thing, it is possible, but Battleships are just very rarely used in a manner that would allow for it.

On the bright side, Battleships can speed tank Dread guns if you can get close enough and aren't webbed/painted to hell :)
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-05-13 06:39:40 UTC
Battleships don't speed tank anything other than maybe Dreadnought guns.

The sig bloom of an MWD won't make a lick of difference for a Battleship once you can open some range and get some transverse. Like anyone that's run L4's in a BS will tell you, warp in and start opening up the gap. Clear to range and the incoming damage will be negligible, at best. Only Guristas will be able to hit you from great distances. By then, you can shut down the MWD.