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[Carnyx] The Jackdaw

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#581 - 2015-06-03 20:59:00 UTC
Enviah wrote:
All that I am seeing from a lot of the posts in here is 'Waaah, waaah, waaah... This ship does not conform to the exact specifications that I wanted so CCP you have ruined my game...'

So the ship has gimped PWG, learn to deal with it. So it only has one utility if fitting all weapons... Again, deal with it. More damage or two utilities. You still have the option to fit the same # of utilities, you just have to decide which you want more.

Then there's the lows. Sure... I would love to see a ship where I could load out as many BCS' as possible. But game balance doesn't work that way. There's a potential for 50% extra damage, 25% RoF and a 75% reduction in reload times, one of the biggest killer for missile boats imo. Suddenly when your 10 second reload becomes about 2.5s your damage application is looking a lot more consitent. It's reloading at the same speed as small hybrids from what I recall...

No ship should be able to do everything perfectly... It should have glaring weaknesses to go alongside its blatant strengths. If you disagree with this, I can guarantee to you that having it any other way would simply result in a broken game where everyone flies the same ships.


Goodpoast.

Svipul still cancerous and does not conform to the T3D concept, though.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#582 - 2015-06-04 00:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ARMED1
So the svipul and confessors get a nerf and then an OP jackdaw is released... Why? CCP terribad with releasing these new ships. Release then nerf. How long til the jackdaw gets its nerf? Right before the next D3 is released prolly.
LastGunslinger Tull
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
Two Vargurs one Hole
#583 - 2015-06-04 03:27:33 UTC
The nerf of removing the shield bonus all together is crap CCP and you know it is. Add the shield cap bonus back but reduce it, 3% per level is fair. 15% at 5 which is still a 10% reduction overall and that is more than fair.
The ships were SUPPOSED to have individuality but instead just another addition to someones personal hangar, no webs, long points, ewar buffs. Just a destroyer on dope unlike the versatility of a T3 cruiser. My suggestion, give the Hectate (in the future) point bonus, the Svipul web bonus, and the confessor (a small) bonus to nos or neut per level. To make things interesting and give the destroyers more ability to perform in combat and fast paced battles. Fact is, they had decent plans. But not anymore, the Caldari are renown for being tanky, the gallente for DPS, the amarr for being specialized in neuts and the minmitar speed and webs. Now what do we have, overpriced destroyers with no reason to fly them other than them being new. I was excited for the jackdaw, but it was just another disappointing release.
Please take my input at least into discussion and i know there are alot of other people out there that would argue the same point as me including my room mates.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#584 - 2015-06-04 08:07:57 UTC
I think the reload bonus is under-rated. Switching from rage to javelin against a kiter for example might save you a decent 1500-2100 damage difference depending on what you're fighting.

Something not mentioned yet is how a decent lightmissile fleet of these things with reps could work - projecting out to 62-70km and a reasonably small sig plus the speed to chase or pull. No they're not the fastest ships out there but I challenge anyone to tell me how the jackdaw is outright terrible considering some ships scale in fleets better than others (typically those ships with the best damage projection i.e. ishtars, railgus, raileagles etc). I have never in 6 years seen a fleet of stabbers.

One other thing to mention before I go about the comment of sustained damage from reload reduction: notice how ACs get like 120 shots per load? Their lower total dps lasts longer.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#585 - 2015-06-04 08:21:11 UTC
ARMED1 wrote:
So the svipul and confessors get a nerf and then an OP jackdaw is released... Why? CCP terribad with releasing these new ships. Release then nerf. How long til the jackdaw gets its nerf? Right before the next D3 is released prolly.



Overpowered?

Hahahahaha.

It's about as fast as a plated cruiser. Apart from bads who can't dscan in FW, if you die to this you're doing it wrong.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#586 - 2015-06-04 09:19:16 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Enviah wrote:
All that I am seeing from a lot of the posts in here is 'Waaah, waaah, waaah... This ship does not conform to the exact specifications that I wanted so CCP you have ruined my game...'

So the ship has gimped PWG, learn to deal with it. So it only has one utility if fitting all weapons... Again, deal with it. More damage or two utilities. You still have the option to fit the same # of utilities, you just have to decide which you want more.

Then there's the lows. Sure... I would love to see a ship where I could load out as many BCS' as possible. But game balance doesn't work that way. There's a potential for 50% extra damage, 25% RoF and a 75% reduction in reload times, one of the biggest killer for missile boats imo. Suddenly when your 10 second reload becomes about 2.5s your damage application is looking a lot more consitent. It's reloading at the same speed as small hybrids from what I recall...

No ship should be able to do everything perfectly... It should have glaring weaknesses to go alongside its blatant strengths. If you disagree with this, I can guarantee to you that having it any other way would simply result in a broken game where everyone flies the same ships.


Have you looked at the ship's stats at all beyond a cursory analysis? Have you flown it? You're right to claim that people are upset that the ship didn't conform to the exact specifications that they wanted. That is because these exact specifications were "a good tactical destroyer with Caldari flavouring (ie. missile using, favours defense over speed but not disproportionately so given the nature of tactical destroyers, solid shield tank with damage mitigation)". This is not what we have here. Instead it is essentially the return of the "Faildari" ethos I remember being prevalent in Caldari ships back in 2009-2010 (Drake excluded obviously).

The ship is basically nothing but weakness after weakness, and it has no "blatant strength" to speak of. The 2.5 second reload time does nothing but increase sustained DPS- but that doesn't mean very much because burst DPS is already not particularly high (that being said, it does help light missiles a lot more than rockets due to their difference in cycle time IMO). There is no big selling point that makes me think, "Dang I need to buy 30 Jackdaws, these things are good at (role) because of (stat combination)!" So it doesn't even conform to your statement of it being some sort of specialist at something (which already is against the grain of what tactical destroyers are supposed to do, as adaptable generalists, which the Jackdaw still isn't.)

With it's horrendous powergrid, "fitting choice" (as opposed to actual fitting options) is invoked and I can honestly say I'm completely at a loss as to how I'm supposed to fit out a Jackdaw if I'm going to be using light missiles. Maybe my little break from the game (Over this winter, since just after the Confessor came out) has taken some of my familiarity with fitting, but honestly the Jackdaw just doesn't seem like its hull stats actually work together to make it a dependable ship.

I wouldn't even dream of throwing the Jackdaw into PvP, unless I had millions of ISK I wanted to burn for some arbitrary reason. That's all it seems to be right now. The most efficient way to lose ISK.



I hate to say it but I partially agree with this.
I'm still struggling to find any LML fit that's practical on this hull. Sharpshooter mode isn't really necessary with the natural range of LMLs, however, Prop mode doesn't provide the required speed. Even with a Nano or ODI, at least with my skills, pushing this thing up to 2.5kms is sort of a problem. It's a glaring problem because Cruisers and Frigs, as well as the Flycatcher, are capable of more sustained speed than the Jackdaw. What am I supposed to run from, a Battleship?

Aside from that, simply fitting T2 LMLs on this thing sucks up too much PG. You end up blowing lows/rigs for fitting just to fit a MSE or two.

At least from my perspective, this thing can't kite. The only way you could pull it off is if you're running with links/snakes or have someone to tackle/peel for you. Might as well fly a Hookbill or Caracal for kiting. Which is pretty sad, a smaller and larger hull are both better at kiting than a T3 Dessie with bonuses for ranged missiles and propulsion.

This thing seems specifically designed for Rocket Brawling/Tackling. In fact, it's stupidly good at it. Potential 300+ DPS with Dual Web/Scram.
Rosidah Rahim
North Shore MC
#587 - 2015-06-04 11:25:49 UTC
Can't wait to see the Gallente version of it! Blink
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#588 - 2015-06-04 11:48:21 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:


This thing seems specifically designed for Rocket Brawling/Tackling. In fact, it's stupidly good at it. Potential 300+ DPS with Dual Web/Scram.


And you might very well be right. Do you also complain this much when your kiting rail rokh gets run down by megathrons or nighthawks?
Pam Demonium
Spy Satellite Network
#589 - 2015-06-04 12:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Pam Demonium
LastGunslinger Tull wrote:
The nerf of removing the shield bonus all together is crap CCP and you know it is. Add the shield cap bonus back but reduce it, 3% per level is fair. 15% at 5 which is still a 10% reduction overall and that is more than fair.
.


Concur, some safety glass on this cannon would be nice

I came back just to fly this bird
Lisa Sophie d'Elancourt
Empusa.
#590 - 2015-06-04 12:56:59 UTC
Firstly we compare jackdaw with confessor and svipul, both - even nerfed - very nice ships. So I expected another ship, which will be in the line. Is jackdaw in the line? To my mind not. Basic bonuses are ok, but what jackdaw offers next? Snail speed - nothing what could attract. Defense mode - ok, but nothing special. Sharpshooter mode - nothing special. Propulsion mode - really, nothing special. And we are talking about T3 ship - T3 means very advanced technology which makes ship unique and gives it features above T1 and T2. Just clicking buttons to switch modes - oh antennas are moving! - it's not enough.

I really don't understand why you discriminate missile ships. And I bet Hecate will be another very nice ship. So the result after implementing all T3 dessies will be - three nice ones and one "nothing special". I'd like to be understood well - I don't expect superhiperomnikiller platform. I know every ships has own weakness. But there should be something what can compensate it. But there is nothing in jackdaw what would persuade me to use it. Maybe from time to time, but surely not too often.

I've been waiting for this ship for months. And I liked its name. Finally it came out that CCP made a mistake, because "Disappointment" matches this hull much, much better than "Jackdaw".
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#591 - 2015-06-04 13:44:20 UTC
Lisa Sophie d'Elancourt wrote:

I've been waiting for this ship for months. And I liked its name. Finally it came out that CCP made a mistake, because "Disappointment" matches this hull much, much better than "Jackdaw".


Are you for cereal suggesting that you ignored testing this ship on SiSi despite it being there for 2 months?

Where do you people come from?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#592 - 2015-06-04 13:54:39 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:

I'm still struggling to find any LML fit that's practical on this hull. Sharpshooter mode isn't really necessary with the natural range of LMLs, however, Prop mode doesn't provide the required speed. Even with a Nano or ODI, at least with my skills, pushing this thing up to 2.5kms is sort of a problem.


For LMLs, there's a sniperfit for ~110km range (2BCS), a dualweb fit with 2 MSEs and 265dps with furies(2BCS), a dualprop one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), a 10mn one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), and I saw some people have success wth a kiting 2 MASB one.

Having 2 BCS makes a huge difference for breaking tanks solo imo, however sustained tank in kiting scenarios is great, too. While it doesn't go that fast, fitting a 25mil deadspace mwd and the resulting overheat durations are worth the investment. Regular mwds burn out in 3-4 cycles, but on a T3D, you can heat an a-type mwd for minutes, yielding something like 3.2km/s.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#593 - 2015-06-04 14:31:43 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:

I'm still struggling to find any LML fit that's practical on this hull. Sharpshooter mode isn't really necessary with the natural range of LMLs, however, Prop mode doesn't provide the required speed. Even with a Nano or ODI, at least with my skills, pushing this thing up to 2.5kms is sort of a problem.


For LMLs, there's a sniperfit for ~110km range (2BCS), a dualweb fit with 2 MSEs and 265dps with furies(2BCS), a dualprop one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), a 10mn one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), and I saw some people have success wth a kiting 2 MASB one.

Having 2 BCS makes a huge difference for breaking tanks solo imo, however sustained tank in kiting scenarios is great, too. While it doesn't go that fast, fitting a 25mil deadspace mwd and the resulting overheat durations are worth the investment. Regular mwds burn out in 3-4 cycles, but on a T3D, you can heat an a-type mwd for minutes, yielding something like 3.2km/s.

Do deadspace MWDs have more overheating time in general than normal MWDs?

If there is a difference in overheating times between deadspace and normal MWDs, EFT doesn't show it. But I would like to know because that is good investigative material no doubt.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#594 - 2015-06-04 14:36:01 UTC
Regarding Jackdaw, here is a light missile fit that I just based off of cookie cutter Orthrus type fits. It's kind of like a Caracal, only it's faster and has it's advantages and disadvantages.

JACKDAW
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
[empty high slot]

Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

I don't know how much the shield booster is but a normal Tech II will not fit so I just threw that on.

200 dps cold. But this thing is slow man, 2,377 m/s. Maybe it is not meant to be flown this way but there it is.

I couldn't come up with any notable rocket fits, except a 10mn fit

10MN JACKDAW
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Caldari Navy Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

This is stupidly expensive and seems mediocre overall. Waste of an attempt.

You can do 250 dps at 100km with a light missile fit though, which is cool.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#595 - 2015-06-04 14:50:47 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:

I'm still struggling to find any LML fit that's practical on this hull. Sharpshooter mode isn't really necessary with the natural range of LMLs, however, Prop mode doesn't provide the required speed. Even with a Nano or ODI, at least with my skills, pushing this thing up to 2.5kms is sort of a problem.


For LMLs, there's a sniperfit for ~110km range (2BCS), a dualweb fit with 2 MSEs and 265dps with furies(2BCS), a dualprop one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), a 10mn one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), and I saw some people have success wth a kiting 2 MASB one.

Having 2 BCS makes a huge difference for breaking tanks solo imo, however sustained tank in kiting scenarios is great, too. While it doesn't go that fast, fitting a 25mil deadspace mwd and the resulting overheat durations are worth the investment. Regular mwds burn out in 3-4 cycles, but on a T3D, you can heat an a-type mwd for minutes, yielding something like 3.2km/s.


For 100mil in domination BCS you can hit 294dps unheated.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#596 - 2015-06-04 16:12:04 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:

I'm still struggling to find any LML fit that's practical on this hull. Sharpshooter mode isn't really necessary with the natural range of LMLs, however, Prop mode doesn't provide the required speed. Even with a Nano or ODI, at least with my skills, pushing this thing up to 2.5kms is sort of a problem.


For LMLs, there's a sniperfit for ~110km range (2BCS), a dualweb fit with 2 MSEs and 265dps with furies(2BCS), a dualprop one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), a 10mn one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), and I saw some people have success wth a kiting 2 MASB one.

Having 2 BCS makes a huge difference for breaking tanks solo imo, however sustained tank in kiting scenarios is great, too. While it doesn't go that fast, fitting a 25mil deadspace mwd and the resulting overheat durations are worth the investment. Regular mwds burn out in 3-4 cycles, but on a T3D, you can heat an a-type mwd for minutes, yielding something like 3.2km/s.


I don't think you're really getting my point here.
The Jackdaw as a Rocket hull is pretty awesome. The mids and hull bonuses work great for it. It's just the PG that's a bit tight and the reload speed bonus is a bit wasted.

As a LML hull, I'm still trying to find a reason to even bring one. If I had a choice between a LML Jackdaw or a Caracal, I'd probably bring the Caracal. The Caracal has flexible fitting options (Keyword: Options), doesn't need to invest in fitting rigs/mods, can project damage out to similar range, can maintain equal, if not higher, speed than the Jackdaw, and it's significantly cheaper.

The only drawback of the Caracal is that people see "Caracal" and instantly think "I'm not fuckin' with that".
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#597 - 2015-06-05 01:05:07 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:

I'm still struggling to find any LML fit that's practical on this hull. Sharpshooter mode isn't really necessary with the natural range of LMLs, however, Prop mode doesn't provide the required speed. Even with a Nano or ODI, at least with my skills, pushing this thing up to 2.5kms is sort of a problem.


For LMLs, there's a sniperfit for ~110km range (2BCS), a dualweb fit with 2 MSEs and 265dps with furies(2BCS), a dualprop one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), a 10mn one with a shieldbooster(1BCS), and I saw some people have success wth a kiting 2 MASB one.

Having 2 BCS makes a huge difference for breaking tanks solo imo, however sustained tank in kiting scenarios is great, too. While it doesn't go that fast, fitting a 25mil deadspace mwd and the resulting overheat durations are worth the investment. Regular mwds burn out in 3-4 cycles, but on a T3D, you can heat an a-type mwd for minutes, yielding something like 3.2km/s.


I don't think you're really getting my point here.
The Jackdaw as a Rocket hull is pretty awesome. The mids and hull bonuses work great for it. It's just the PG that's a bit tight and the reload speed bonus is a bit wasted.

As a LML hull, I'm still trying to find a reason to even bring one. If I had a choice between a LML Jackdaw or a Caracal, I'd probably bring the Caracal. The Caracal has flexible fitting options (Keyword: Options), doesn't need to invest in fitting rigs/mods, can project damage out to similar range, can maintain equal, if not higher, speed than the Jackdaw, and it's significantly cheaper.

The only drawback of the Caracal is that people see "Caracal" and instantly think "I'm not fuckin' with that".


Id fight a caracal with a jackdaw seeing as I proved they can't kill me. And if they buffer fit they die even easier
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#598 - 2015-06-05 09:24:30 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Id fight a caracal with a jackdaw seeing as I proved they can't kill me. And if they buffer fit they die even easier


Wait.... what?
I'm not seeing where you proved any of that.
Just for shiggles, I fitted a LML Jackdaw and a Caracal. With Nanofiber II on both and Polycarbon Engine Housing I and the appropriate size MWD, the Jackdaw only achieves a slightly higher max speed in Propulsion mode.
Meanwhile, the Caracal is nearly matching speed with a better tank, higher DPS, and better application (Assuming a TP here) at equal range. The hilarious thing is how bloated the Jackdaw's Sig Radius is while flying with that MWD. I'd even bet a TP wouldn't be necessary.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#599 - 2015-06-05 09:39:09 UTC
It's almost like you don't understand that 5x sigR with 5x V is the same as shooting a ship without a MWD?

Or that you only recently joiined this conversation?
Arla Sarain
#600 - 2015-06-05 10:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
It's almost like you don't understand that 5x sigR with 5x V is the same as shooting a ship without a MWD?

Or that you only recently joiined this conversation?


Only really true for turrets, because in missiles the second coefficient term has an exponent. x5^n/x5 is not strictly proportional change to x5/x5

In any case... I don't see why a Jackdaw losing to a Caracal is a cause for alarm.

Haven't T3Ds made enough ship classes obsolete yet? Whether Jackdaw deserves the same praise or not. It's more alarming that people go on about how they can't kite in this.
Just keep on snowballing EVE into a Dot Versus Dot simulator, right? If I may be hyperbolic, how soon can we expect small ships to project damage from one edge of the grid to another? And have enough speed to cover the distance for the last, heroic, "well deserved" 80km tackle.


Roll