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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Missile Range vs. Orbiting Targets?
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James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-05-09 05:31:20 UTC
Miissiles (and drones for that matter) in Eve are pretty dumb. They use pure pursuit guidance which makes them monumentally inefficient at chasing down targets. As a result, missiles need a lot of extra range in order to actually hit a fast, orbiting frigate. Does anyone know a simple-ish equation to determine missile flight time/range against an orbiting target given missile speed, target speed and target range?
Arla Sarain
#2 - 2015-05-09 17:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
If what you say about missile AI or whatever is true, and they just dumb-follow the target, then their velocity vectors are approximately parallel, so

simplest equation is relative velocity*flight time = range. Except they don't just follow, so this is not accurate.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#3 - 2015-05-10 02:08:57 UTC
gee if only there were a test server where you could figure **** out on your own. OH WAIT, THERE TOTALLY IS
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-05-10 06:21:43 UTC
You're correct, missiles do require additional range to catch a fast/fleeing target.

BUUUUUUUUTTTT...

Most missiles are not really the right choice for solo- or even small gang PvP. Rockets are for point-blank fights, so your concern is a non-issue. For kiting and things of the like, light missiles are where you want to be. In that instance, your engagement range is still pretty damn close (in order to keep the target pointed) making the range concern, once again, a non-issue.
wilgotna
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-05-10 06:22:47 UTC
missile velocity is more important than missile range for what you are talking about

ive found that light missiles cant hit anything moving faster than approximately 5kms

to hit those fast nerds you need some missile speed rigs or a ship bonused for that... like an orthrus or garmur
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-05-10 06:30:08 UTC
I'll also add:

You should be webbing targets you're engaging with missiles. The double-scram/disruptor setup is not what you want to do when flying missile boats in PvP. The web will make a huge difference in terms of damage application.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#7 - 2015-05-10 20:05:50 UTC
for missiles just work on 10%, its excessive but it works. So if you missile range is 55km, don't shoot anything more than 50KM away, if you have velocity open on your tab and they orbiting at more than 3,5 km/s, don't bother either.
rough guess rule of thumb, but I doubt anyone will be orbiting you at that speed anyway, and if they are, it will be easy enough to run away/sling shot.

... What next ??
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#8 - 2015-05-10 20:20:28 UTC
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
You're correct, missiles do require additional range to catch a fast/fleeing target.

BUUUUUUUUTTTT...

Most missiles are not really the right choice for solo- or even small gang PvP. Rockets are for point-blank fights, so your concern is a non-issue. For kiting and things of the like, light missiles are where you want to be. In that instance, your engagement range is still pretty damn close (in order to keep the target pointed) making the range concern, once again, a non-issue.


This statement about missiles is so wrong.

Light missles / guided missile systes are the best choice for solo or small gang work. Why? Becuase they are the most flexible of all weapon systems, and can ignore all EWAR. TD's are useless. ECM and Damps are useless once you switch to FOF.

Missiles have increased range when you are being chased by targets, however if you are chasing a target- their range is decresaed. This is becuase of your targets speed and movement. When they are buring away from you, they are creating greater distance during the flight time of the missile.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#9 - 2015-05-11 05:00:37 UTC
As I understand it if the target is at half the missiles max range then it needs to be doing at least half the missiles max velocity to escape it, so for example if missile velocity is 5000m/s and range is 40km then at 20km the target needs to do over 2500m/s to outrun the missiles, and at 30km it needs to be doing over 1250m/s, or at 10km it needs to be doing at least 3750m/s for the duration of the missiles flight time.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-05-11 05:08:48 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
You're correct, missiles do require additional range to catch a fast/fleeing target.

BUUUUUUUUTTTT...

Most missiles are not really the right choice for solo- or even small gang PvP. Rockets are for point-blank fights, so your concern is a non-issue. For kiting and things of the like, light missiles are where you want to be. In that instance, your engagement range is still pretty damn close (in order to keep the target pointed) making the range concern, once again, a non-issue.


This statement about missiles is so wrong.

Light missles / guided missile systes are the best choice for solo or small gang work. Why? Becuase they are the most flexible of all weapon systems, and can ignore all EWAR. TD's are useless. ECM and Damps are useless once you switch to FOF.

Missiles have increased range when you are being chased by targets, however if you are chasing a target- their range is decresaed. This is becuase of your targets speed and movement. When they are buring away from you, they are creating greater distance during the flight time of the missile.


I'm not sure how this post actually disagrees with me. In fact, I'm not even sure there's a point made.
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-05-11 06:08:54 UTC
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
You're correct, missiles do require additional range to catch a fast/fleeing target.

BUUUUUUUUTTTT...

Most missiles are not really the right choice for solo- or even small gang PvP. Rockets are for point-blank fights, so your concern is a non-issue. For kiting and things of the like, light missiles are where you want to be. In that instance, your engagement range is still pretty damn close (in order to keep the target pointed) making the range concern, once again, a non-issue.


This statement about missiles is so wrong.

Light missles / guided missile systes are the best choice for solo or small gang work. Why? Becuase they are the most flexible of all weapon systems, and can ignore all EWAR. TD's are useless. ECM and Damps are useless once you switch to FOF.

Missiles have increased range when you are being chased by targets, however if you are chasing a target- their range is decresaed. This is becuase of your targets speed and movement. When they are buring away from you, they are creating greater distance during the flight time of the missile.


I'm not sure how this post actually disagrees with me. In fact, I'm not even sure there's a point made.



That someone thinks that FOF are actually worth something?
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-05-11 06:16:46 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
You're correct, missiles do require additional range to catch a fast/fleeing target.

BUUUUUUUUTTTT...

Most missiles are not really the right choice for solo- or even small gang PvP. Rockets are for point-blank fights, so your concern is a non-issue. For kiting and things of the like, light missiles are where you want to be. In that instance, your engagement range is still pretty damn close (in order to keep the target pointed) making the range concern, once again, a non-issue.


This statement about missiles is so wrong.

Light missles / guided missile systes are the best choice for solo or small gang work. Why? Becuase they are the most flexible of all weapon systems, and can ignore all EWAR. TD's are useless. ECM and Damps are useless once you switch to FOF.

Missiles have increased range when you are being chased by targets, however if you are chasing a target- their range is decresaed. This is becuase of your targets speed and movement. When they are buring away from you, they are creating greater distance during the flight time of the missile.


I'm not sure how this post actually disagrees with me. In fact, I'm not even sure there's a point made.



That someone thinks that FOF are actually worth something?


I suppose they CAN be. I just don't know the last time I even had one in my hold. I generally don't solo PvP, so perhaps my perspective may be skewed.
Dreaded Vengance
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#13 - 2015-05-11 09:31:23 UTC
wilgotna wrote:
missile velocity is more important than missile range for what you are talking about

ive found that light missiles cant hit anything moving faster than approximately 5kms

to hit those fast nerds you need some missile speed rigs or a ship bonused for that... like an orthrus or garmur


QFT

Missile velocity, explosion velocity, explosion radius. Range is a by-product of velocity if you're fitting to actually hit stuff.

With T2 rigs in, the Garmurs missile velocity is kinda obscene - RLML fit Cerberus can't get anywhere near it although it has a 10% bonus per level.