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CCP, What is the point of this?

First post
Author
Thomas Lear
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#1 - 2015-05-08 23:40:44 UTC
So today I EFT warrioring and I noticed something when constructing an Archon and Chimera side by side. First, the Chimera's capacitor is smaller then the Archons. But most importantly secondly, I noticed that both the local and remote reps for the Chimera (shield reps) took a TON more cap to activate over the armor reps. In the local reps this isn't a huge deal due to cycle time and rep amount but for the remote reps, I found that both rep the SAME AMOUNT and have the SAME RANGE yet have DIFFERENT activation costs. So CCP, why is that?

EFT print screen: http://prntscr.com/733ybz Notice the capacitor amounts. Recharge amounts are roughly the same.

In-game comparrison of mods: http://prntscr.com/733zds
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#2 - 2015-05-08 23:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Eve Solecist
Is EFT wrong?

Ah yes.
But why is it an issue?
One is Armour, one is Shields.
They aren't meant to be equal? No?

Amarrian ships usually also have a larger capacitor.


(5/10)
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Thomas Lear
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2015-05-08 23:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Lear
according to the in-game info on the mods the activation costs are different, the numbers in EFT are off slightly.

The mods in game have been made with the same range, repair points etc. So why would they need different activation costs? So if they had a different range and or a different amount of repair each cycle i could see the activation cost difference.
PlantythePottedPlant
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2015-05-09 00:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: PlantythePottedPlant
If you look, every tier of remote repairs shows a higher activation cost for shields than for armor. For all of them it's an 11.1% increase from the armor repairer to the shield repairer, which is exactly where the capital module activation cost difference is.

Small: 11.% (27 > 30)
Medium: 11.1% (108 > 120)
Large: 11.1% (252 > 280)
Capital: 11.1% (1350 > 1500)

I'm guessing it's because the reps for shields have the advantage of hitting immediately, so they had to balance that somehow.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#5 - 2015-05-09 01:20:31 UTC
Capacitor is a harsh way to balance for shield ships.
Their tank is mid slots, the biggest boost to capacitor is from the following module groups capacitor relay, batteries and capacitor boosters are all mid slots.

Shield also is heavily weighted to being active tanked, so your tank can be neuted away.
I do prefer logi, seeing the repairs land straight away.
I also prefer the speed.

However, armour get, better signature tanks, better eHP (slave sets prime example), better resistance to neuts, more mid slot utilities, more capacitor.

Over all, I think the balance lies more in armour tanking's favour.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#6 - 2015-05-09 01:27:33 UTC
Thomas Lear wrote:
So today I EFT warrioring and I noticed something when constructing an Archon and Chimera side by side. First, the Chimera's capacitor is smaller then the Archons. But most importantly secondly, I noticed that both the local and remote reps for the Chimera (shield reps) took a TON more cap to activate over the armor reps. In the local reps this isn't a huge deal due to cycle time and rep amount but for the remote reps, I found that both rep the SAME AMOUNT and have the SAME RANGE yet have DIFFERENT activation costs. So CCP, why is that?

EFT print screen: http://prntscr.com/733ybz Notice the capacitor amounts. Recharge amounts are roughly the same.

In-game comparrison of mods: http://prntscr.com/733zds


Armor tanks are more cap-efficient than shield tanks. Always have been, always will be. Ever notice that the omni-resist modules for shields require cap, while the same for armor does not?

Next you'll be complaining about how armor tanks have a delay on rep, while shield does not.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-05-09 01:38:29 UTC
Cool thing about shield ships and capacitor is if you don't use local reps, using low slot cap mods is a very easy decision. One I might argue is very much worth the extra usage cost.
PlantythePottedPlant
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2015-05-09 01:39:49 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Capacitor is a harsh way to balance for shield ships.
Their tank is mid slots, the biggest boost to capacitor is from the following module groups capacitor relay, batteries and capacitor boosters are all mid slots.

Shield also is heavily weighted to being active tanked, so your tank can be neuted away.
I do prefer logi, seeing the repairs land straight away.
I also prefer the speed.

However, armour get, better signature tanks, better eHP (slave sets prime example), better resistance to neuts, more mid slot utilities, more capacitor.

Over all, I think the balance lies more in armour tanking's favour.


Capacitor Power Relay is a low slot module.

Also, armor tank is heavier and has lower dps, since most dps mods are in the lows.

You can't just look at one aspect and say "this one's better" without looking at every factor. Honestly, both have their pros and cons, so you choose which one suits your ship or what you're doing.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#9 - 2015-05-09 02:01:14 UTC
PlantythePottedPlant wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Capacitor is a harsh way to balance for shield ships.
Their tank is mid slots, the biggest boost to capacitor is from the following module groups capacitor relay, batteries and capacitor boosters are all mid slots.

Shield also is heavily weighted to being active tanked, so your tank can be neuted away.
I do prefer logi, seeing the repairs land straight away.
I also prefer the speed.

However, armour get, better signature tanks, better eHP (slave sets prime example), better resistance to neuts, more mid slot utilities, more capacitor.

Over all, I think the balance lies more in armour tanking's favour.


Capacitor Power Relay is a low slot module.

Also, armor tank is heavier and has lower dps, since most dps mods are in the lows.

You can't just look at one aspect and say "this one's better" without looking at every factor. Honestly, both have their pros and cons, so you choose which one suits your ship or what you're doing.
Which ever one is the mid slot one then. Capacitor relay, flux, charger w/e
I did list pros and cons.
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Next you'll be complaining about how armor tanks have a delay on rep, while shield does not.
I would gladly give armour tanks the repairs at the start of the cycle for shields to be more capacitor efficient.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#10 - 2015-05-09 02:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I would gladly give armour tanks the repairs at the start of the cycle for shields to be more capacitor efficient.


Give armor tanks midslots that increase damage and then maybe - MAYBE - you'd have a decent trade. There are lows that give you cap. They are, in fact, superior to the mids that do the same thing.

The truth is, if you want an efficient tank or a huge buffer, you go armor. If you want a burst tank or a regenerating buffer, you go shield. Removing the differences between the two doesn't add to the game. It takes away from it.

As for the base cap regen on ships, remember that the two armor tanking races use weapon systems that drain cap, and the two shield tanking races do not.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#11 - 2015-05-09 02:09:05 UTC
Shields regen, armour does not.

I think everything has been covered now.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#12 - 2015-05-09 02:25:16 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I would gladly give armour tanks the repairs at the start of the cycle for shields to be more capacitor efficient.
Give armor tanks midslots that increase damage and then maybe - MAYBE - you'd have a decent trade. ...
Have a look into shield fit Amarr and Gallente ships if you want really insane speeds and damage. Blink
The low capacitor modules penalise shield repairs or they reduce the total capacitor, which decreases how much the % gain will be.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#13 - 2015-05-09 02:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I would gladly give armour tanks the repairs at the start of the cycle for shields to be more capacitor efficient.
Give armor tanks midslots that increase damage and then maybe - MAYBE - you'd have a decent trade. ...
Have a look into shield fit Amarr and Gallente ships if you want really insane speeds and damage. Blink
The low capacitor modules penalise shield repairs or they reduce the total capacitor, which decreases how much the % gain will be.


Fun fact: 11% lower reps for 24% more cap is what people call efficiency.

And lightly tanked gank boats are not the ships you bring up when comparing tanks.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-05-09 03:25:57 UTC
Fun Fact: Capacitor Power Relays do not lower remote rep amounts, if I recall right. But I'm not a shield pilot...
Anuri Suaraj
The Cylar Foundation
#15 - 2015-05-09 12:15:33 UTC
Seeing how I'm the finest engineer in all of New Eden, please allow me to answer your interesting question of why the act of regenerating shields cost more energy than repairing armor/hull.

Let's start with remote armor repairers. They work on the principle of delivering nano-assemblers - tiny robots which can repair structure or armor - via a condensed energy beam (which is a basically a tractor beam working in reverse) to the target ship.

So, the only energy cost here is in the projection of a small energy transport beam which delivers nano-assemblers to its intended target. Once delivered to a target ship's external plating, the nano-assemblers continue to function via their own internal energy supply, which are actually nanotetrahydrolon fuel cells invented in YC-107 by Dagnard Resus of Carthum Conglomerate R&D division respectively.

Now, as for those remote shield boosters and transporters, they don't actually repair anything. They simply transport energy to the target ship, circumventing the said ship's capacitor, and depositing raw shield energy in form of ionized gravitons directly into the main deflector array.

So, you can certainly deduce where the added power cost comes from. Not only does the remote shield booster transfer vast amounts of energy through space but it also has to channel that energy properly and by all costs avoid accidental fallout into the target ships capacitor which would cause an instant overload of the said capacitor and cause one undoubtedly spectacular antimatter explosion.

You see, during any transfer of power there are losses incurred. The bigger the transfer is, the bigger the losses are.

I hope this answers your question.

Respectfully,

Anuri Suaraj
Chief Remote Power Transference Engineer
Amarr Imperial Academy
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#16 - 2015-05-09 18:50:42 UTC
This thread has been moved to Ships & Modules.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#17 - 2015-05-09 19:03:27 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Shields regen, armour does not.

I think everything has been covered now.


Bingo.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#18 - 2015-05-09 20:54:25 UTC
Thomas Lear wrote:
So CCP, why is that?


If you take a more closer look you'll notice how one local shield booster roughly compares to two armor repairers, so one medslot is doing as much as two lowslots. In fact, this stacks with deadspace invuln being significantly stronger than deadspace EANMs and you can build a way stronger local tank with shields compared to armor while keeping the cap recharge high.
This also leads to - as far as triage/siege/local tank is concerned - shields benig hands down the better choice for tanking.
A shieldtanked triage archon is more resilent than the armor variation, shieldtanked moros outtanks an armortanked one by a long shot, and even the Rev is doing better with shields.

Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-05-10 05:20:44 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Thomas Lear wrote:
So CCP, why is that?


If you take a more closer look you'll notice how one local shield booster roughly compares to two armor repairers, so one medslot is doing as much as two lowslots. In fact, this stacks with deadspace invuln being significantly stronger than deadspace EANMs and you can build a way stronger local tank with shields compared to armor while keeping the cap recharge high.
This also leads to - as far as triage/siege/local tank is concerned - shields benig hands down the better choice for tanking.
A shieldtanked triage archon is more resilent than the armor variation, shieldtanked moros outtanks an armortanked one by a long shot, and even the Rev is doing better with shields.




Pretty much this. And it also allows the dreds/carriers to use more cap or damage lows making it that much better. And it scales down pretty much the same way.

The flip side is that in group fights with remote reps you see armor being stronger (at least in brawling scenarios) because of the stronger buffer and more efficient reps. That combined with the fact that local buffer can use no cap means that people don't have to worry about getting insta blapped just because they get neuted out.