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[Petition] Release of The Scope employees

Author
Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#61 - 2015-05-09 12:35:51 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
There is a clear lack of foresight here.

This matter belongs to a court. Both those laws do not contradict each other but one can supersede the former when the security breach is proven enough for it to apply. It is called a safeguard and prevents excessive use of the first, generic law.

Those journalists chose to risk exposing information compromising security and opsec when they were clearly told not to do so. Releasing that kind of information to the public is a clear lack of professionalism as well as an indication of journalistic eagerness and appetite for audience without thinking further of the implication of such a press release.

While that the seed has been planted already now, asking for the release of those journalists is understandable but will not serve as a lesson for future, similar breaches.

If for example that older message asking for Jovian body parts had been kept in the hands of CONCORD, and then a similar leak happened, would you have all of you made such outrage for it to be released because you had the right to know too ?

Capsuleer foolishness at its highest that want to be fed every information, not matter the implications.


The point is, now there's a threat that clearly affects all our safety. Remember, CONCORD are the ones with killswitches in our brains, if they become compromised we're all dead.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#62 - 2015-05-09 14:04:57 UTC
Signed.
Mark726
Project Compass Holdings
#63 - 2015-05-09 16:15:36 UTC
I fully support this petition. Signed.
Sahriah BloodStone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2015-05-09 16:29:44 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
There is a clear lack of foresight here.

This matter belongs to a court. Both those laws do not contradict each other but one can supersede the former when the security breach is proven enough for it to apply. It is called a safeguard and prevents excessive use of the first, generic law.

Those journalists chose to risk exposing information compromising security and opsec when they were clearly told not to do so. Releasing that kind of information to the public is a clear lack of professionalism as well as an indication of journalistic eagerness and appetite for audience without thinking further of the implication of such a press release.

While that the seed has been planted already now, asking for the release of those journalists is understandable but will not serve as a lesson for future, similar breaches.

If for example that older message asking for Jovian body parts had been kept in the hands of CONCORD, and then a similar leak happened, would you have all of you made such outrage for it to be released because you had the right to know too ?

Capsuleer foolishness at its highest that want to be fed every information, not matter the implications.


Nonsense. The DED strongly suggested not releasing the information until they could analyze it, but at the time had no legal authority to restrict such a thing happening. If they did they would have done so before the release of the information.

There is nothing opsec about a armada of drifter battleships on our doorstep. The DED and CONCORD have had MONTHS to deal with this threat either through communication or show of force, if they had done so, and could show that they are able to protect us, then i would agree with your statements, however considering they have shown a distinct lack of ability to do anything at all when even Yulai was attacked, it was certainly time to release this information to people who can make a difference.

If you want to banter about professionalism and laws when we are about to be invaded, then respectfully it is clear you have lost perspective.

Sahriah Bloodstone

No.Mercy // Triumvirate

"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "

Kirk Ernaga
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-05-09 17:56:45 UTC
Signed. Though I can understand the importance of not showing your weaknesses, the ded is withholding information from the only people that are willing aND capable of fighting the drifters effectively. Furthermore I would propose a future petition to release information on the status of the jove directorate. Concord, you have willing allies here, but for the sake of God stop keeping g us in the dark!
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2015-05-09 19:17:23 UTC
Sahriah BloodStone wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
There is a clear lack of foresight here.

This matter belongs to a court. Both those laws do not contradict each other but one can supersede the former when the security breach is proven enough for it to apply. It is called a safeguard and prevents excessive use of the first, generic law.

Those journalists chose to risk exposing information compromising security and opsec when they were clearly told not to do so. Releasing that kind of information to the public is a clear lack of professionalism as well as an indication of journalistic eagerness and appetite for audience without thinking further of the implication of such a press release.

While that the seed has been planted already now, asking for the release of those journalists is understandable but will not serve as a lesson for future, similar breaches.

If for example that older message asking for Jovian body parts had been kept in the hands of CONCORD, and then a similar leak happened, would you have all of you made such outrage for it to be released because you had the right to know too ?

Capsuleer foolishness at its highest that want to be fed every information, not matter the implications.


Nonsense. The DED strongly suggested not releasing the information until they could analyze it, but at the time had no legal authority to restrict such a thing happening. If they did they would have done so before the release of the information.

There is nothing opsec about a armada of drifter battleships on our doorstep. The DED and CONCORD have had MONTHS to deal with this threat either through communication or show of force, if they had done so, and could show that they are able to protect us, then i would agree with your statements, however considering they have shown a distinct lack of ability to do anything at all when even Yulai was attacked, it was certainly time to release this information to people who can make a difference.

If you want to banter about professionalism and laws when we are about to be invaded, then respectfully it is clear you have lost perspective.


They could have incarcerated them before... indeed. The reaction would have been the same. The outrage would have been even worse, perhaps, for not knowing the reasons. Perhaps, also, they had the hope to be lenient and did not want to act like;.. tyrants.

Also, it is interesting to note that the very word used here, "suggested", can mean pretty much anything. Especially associated with strongly, and that could have well been an actual threat of judicial consequences. If I may say so, you are very quick to judge without the proper information and barely knowing the tip of the iceberg. And that is what this whole thread seems to be about. Haste and lack of information. Entitled capsuleers grasping at straws and making up half of the story, then convincing themselves that it is actually what happened.

Maybe you are right, though. Maybe there is a CONCORD conspiracy or that they are just incompetent.... Well then, forgive me for believing in Occam's Razor principles here. I am not too much into tinfoil theories...

Why would they have to show that they are able to protect us, by the way ? CONCORD's mandate when it comes to capsuleers, is to regulate capsuleer business. They keep capsuleers on a leash and that is basically their only reason to interfere in our affairs. And I honestly believe that capsuleers really are the last to be... protected against physical threats in space...

If I may speculate for a bit, I would not be surprised to see them releasing a statement where capsuleers are called to defend against that new threat if said threat proves to be not only hostile to capsuleers (that also invade their space), but also to baseliners, like the Sansha Nation proved to be in the past when they returned.

If anything, freelance capsuleers are (valuable) tools to CONCORD, nothing more.

Last but not least... Nothing tells me that they have been doing nothing for the last months... This report actually proves that they have been listening to broadcast communications from inside Anoikis, or maybe even more, to just get their hands on that information. Have you been able to receive it yourself ? What was your own intelligence, before theirs leaked ? I believe here that they were actually a lot more capable in... doing something valuable, instead of blasting gung-ho every drifter ship coming in their vicinity...

Do not get me wrong though... The drifter autopsy and other valuable bits gathered by capsuleers are also worthy of praise.

I respectfully question your own lack of perspective here..
Blue spy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2015-05-09 20:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Blue spy
Not signed. The DED might be privy to information too confidential to let into the hands of a bunch of hyped up murder-boning demigods, and in that respect a moratorium on these kinds of scaremongering attempts by the scope seem completely justified.

We could be getting in the way of some high-level negotiations here, or disrupting the work of an agency which for almost all of its recorded history has bent over backwards to secure peace in New Eden.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#68 - 2015-05-09 20:43:52 UTC
Sahriah BloodStone wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:


Power? How this power was protecting you from Drifters, when you are attacking them? How many capsuleers don't accept DED and CONCORD advices? Was it really a good for those capsuleers not to respect them? I have a serious doubts.


Firstly i would like to state that i have never engaged a drifter. I did once chase a circadian sleeper away when it tried to scan me however after it did not reply to hails asking it to cease and desist.

If someone comes into your home and starts going through your draws, your electronic files, scanning your security systems and not replying to any of your attempts to communicate with them, you would feel threatened and violated. The drifters have been doing this en masse in all areas of space, and from the reports i have read, have actively attacked many people.

The power i speak of is the power to act and the right to be privy to critical information related to our survival. Had the DED been more forthcoming with information it may have prevented people from overreacting and starting their own investigations. We have been forced to seek the knowledge for ourselves, and you should be glad there are people out there who did, or we may not even be aware of this fleet on our doorstep.


Sins of capsuleers are many.

Drifters act only when provoked. If you make dishonor to a guest, if you try to steal from him, if you attack him, he have right to defend himself. I will not even say anything about all those times when capsuleers invaded Sleeper structures for a profit. This had to end someday.

If moth comes too near to a light, its wings will burn. Don't allow them act like a moths - warn them, hide fire, that was the intention of officials. If you don't know anything beside "don't come near them", its better for you. But even that advice was completely ignored. Childish behavior: you have to get burned to know the pain. This "freedom" will come with even greater cost in future, I am afraid, as there is more to uncover.
Temba Ronin
#69 - 2015-05-09 21:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Temba Ronin
DED & Concord should not operate "Above the law", I sense a growing threat and would like all the time and information available to prepare.

I suspect the attempts to maintain public calm have over ridden common sense within the upper echelons of the DED and Concord.

As capsuleers we all can see a fight is coming. The time has come to organize a "law enforcement auxiliary" that functions as effectively as the Militias do. We capsuleers have to be free and informed to fight the growing threat on the horizon.

Yes I sign the petition to free the journalists!

Join me in demanding that DED and Concord organize a "Law Enforcement Auxiliary" made up of volunteer capsuleers that will take the fight to the Jove, Drifters, and whoever else wherever they pop up in New Eden in whatever class ship is required.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#70 - 2015-05-09 21:31:44 UTC
They will probably do something similar soon enough, albeit less officially I guess...
Kirk Ernaga
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2015-05-10 06:13:18 UTC
Blue spy wrote:
Not signed. The DED might be privy to information too confidential to let into the hands of a bunch of hyped up murder-boning demigods, and in that respect a moratorium on these kinds of scaremongering attempts by the scope seem completely justified.

We could be getting in the way of some high-level negotiations here, or disrupting the work of an agency which for almost all of its recorded history has bent over backwards to secure peace in New Eden.




If that was the case why didn't they declare the information classified and keep the broadcast out of the scopes hand to begin with?
Kirk Ernaga
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2015-05-10 06:14:05 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
DED & Concord should not operate "Above the law", I sense a growing threat and would like all the time and information available to prepare.

I suspect the attempts to maintain public calm have over ridden common sense within the upper echelons of the DED and Concord.

As capsuleers we all can see a fight is coming. The time has come to organize a "law enforcement auxiliary" that functions as effectively as the Militias do. We capsuleers have to be free and informed to fight the growing threat on the horizon.

Yes I sign the petition to free the journalists!

Join me in demanding that DED and Concord organize a "Law Enforcement Auxiliary" made up of volunteer capsuleers that will take the fight to the Jove, Drifters, and whoever else wherever they pop up in New Eden in whatever class ship is required.

I second this motion
Sahriah BloodStone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2015-05-10 07:15:08 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


They could have incarcerated them before... indeed. The reaction would have been the same. The outrage would have been even worse, perhaps, for not knowing the reasons. Perhaps, also, they had the hope to be lenient and did not want to act like;.. tyrants.

Also, it is interesting to note that the very word used here, "suggested", can mean pretty much anything. Especially associated with strongly, and that could have well been an actual threat of judicial consequences. If I may say so, you are very quick to judge without the proper information and barely knowing the tip of the iceberg. And that is what this whole thread seems to be about. Haste and lack of information. Entitled capsuleers grasping at straws and making up half of the story, then convincing themselves that it is actually what happened.

Maybe you are right, though. Maybe there is a CONCORD conspiracy or that they are just incompetent.... Well then, forgive me for believing in Occam's Razor principles here. I am not too much into tinfoil theories...

Why would they have to show that they are able to protect us, by the way ? CONCORD's mandate when it comes to capsuleers, is to regulate capsuleer business. They keep capsuleers on a leash and that is basically their only reason to interfere in our affairs. And I honestly believe that capsuleers really are the last to be... protected against physical threats in space...

If I may speculate for a bit, I would not be surprised to see them releasing a statement where capsuleers are called to defend against that new threat if said threat proves to be not only hostile to capsuleers (that also invade their space), but also to baseliners, like the Sansha Nation proved to be in the past when they returned.

If anything, freelance capsuleers are (valuable) tools to CONCORD, nothing more.

Last but not least... Nothing tells me that they have been doing nothing for the last months... This report actually proves that they have been listening to broadcast communications from inside Anoikis, or maybe even more, to just get their hands on that information. Have you been able to receive it yourself ? What was your own intelligence, before theirs leaked ? I believe here that they were actually a lot more capable in... doing something valuable, instead of blasting gung-ho every drifter ship coming in their vicinity...

Do not get me wrong though... The drifter autopsy and other valuable bits gathered by capsuleers are also worthy of praise.

I respectfully question your own lack of perspective here..


I think there is a common misunderstanding here when we discuss the Drifters. I was not and never have advocated for blowing them out of the sky for no reason. I was content, albeit it concerned when they first appeared, when they first began scanning out defenses, ships and structures, and even when they defended themselves vs capsuleer aggression.

My main concern is that there was no visible response from CONCORD or the DED when the Drifters went to Yulai. Maybe there is something behind the scenes that we are not seeing, sure, i can see that being a viable possibility, however a direct attack on the core our of defenses, one that has potential similarities to the Minmatar Elder fleet that shut down the system in the past, goes without much response or defense. That seems very wrong. I would think that if there was communication between the DED and the Drifters, even without general public knowledge that those events would not have transpired. I can then only reasonably assume that this is not the case and thus find the current state of events very concerning.

It was right of The Scope to bring this to our attention. We all have the right to defend ourselves.

Sahriah Bloodstone

No.Mercy // Triumvirate

"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "

Arve Vesren
DED
CONCORD Assembly
#74 - 2015-05-11 14:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arve Vesren
I suppose a little clarification of fact wouldn’t hurt.

Two employees of The Scope have indeed been detained for questioning under Section 6 of the Interstellar Corporate Espionage Act YC36, along with a third individual who was until today an employee of Eifyr & Co. This bill was passed in YC36 to protect businesses and organizations from the theft or unauthorized dissemination of information relating to corporate operations.

Given that Hilen Tukoss is registered with the SCC as an employee of Eifyr & Co, and was struck off from the corporate citizenship roster of both Ishukone and Zainou Biotech with the House of Records, this makes his projects business property of Eifyr & Co, whom have filed complaint with the SCC and DED under the ICE Act YC36 from the jurisdiction of Meinigefur district court.

At this time, the three individuals listed above are freely working with the Directive Enforcement Department and Eifyr & Co. during their detainment to ascertain the age of the footage, and the location from which it was broadcast.

The DED was only made aware of the existence of this footage when it was unlawfully sold to The Scope on May 8th, and our offices were contacted by Eifyr & Co regarding theft of digital property. Since becoming aware of the footage, the DED has begun to analyze the recording, its carrier signal and its transmission origin to attempt to date and locate the nature of the events. At this time we have no further information to disseminate on the subject.

Of course, at this stage people are welcome to continue to offer their opinions on the detainment of three individuals who have broken the law in both the Federation and Republic, as well as Interstellar law, however any points raised remain irrelevant.

The three individuals will remain in the custody of the DED until such time as our questioning and investigation is complete, and they are released or criminal charges are formally filed.

The primary objective of the Directive Enforcement Department at this stage is the analysis of the footage and the structure shown within to ascertain whether an upgrade in threat classification is required for the Drifters, and dissemination of that information to various law enforcement and military agencies across the cluster. The secondary objective is the safe recovery of Hilen Tukoss.

The DED has nothing further to add regarding the situation. We do however advise that any attempts to slow or interfere with ongoing investigation will be met with full response on behalf of the Directive Enforcement Department, and cooperating forces from the Federal Intelligence Office and Republic Security Services.

Any further questions can be directed to the DED Office of Press.

Regards,

- AV
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#75 - 2015-05-11 14:33:25 UTC
I support this petition. This attack on our basic democratic freedoms can not stand!

Which legislation gives the DED authority to detain people without charge. I understand the Eifyr&Co employee has been chrged with corporate espionage, but I have not heard any official statement saying what the Scope journalists are charged with.

Above and beyond this issue, it is clear that Eifyr&Co have long been aware of the drifter threat and failed to pass on the warning to the DED that Dr. Tukoss has called for, otherwise they would not have to "investigate the date of the recording".

It can not be the purpose of the DED to protect corporations who fail to disclose information about high-level interstellar threats and on the other side detain those who have the courage to bring that to our attention.
Euttere Geten
Doomheim
#76 - 2015-05-11 16:12:48 UTC
With respect to Assemblywoman Vesren, the law may be clear, but the justification for this reactionary enforcement is questionable. Given the data in the leaked footage broadcast by the Scope, and assuming it's veracity based on the actions of Eifyr, it seems pretty clear that the purchase and dissemination of the clip were not motivated by an attempt to gain an unfair market advantage or damage another company's interests. The Eifyr employee and Scope journalists clearly agreed that the footage depicted an existential threat to the well-being of the cluster, and acted appropriately.

Even if these acts were illegal by the letter of the law, the acts were just. Furthermore, it seems to me as a lay citizen of the Republic that the DED are hostile in employing Section 6 of the ICEA in this case, though perhaps Eifyr share some of the blame for this as well.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#77 - 2015-05-11 17:21:40 UTC
Signed.

Who knows how long Eifyr has been sitting on this. I'm glad one of our brothers or sisters saw clear that this threat is not something that should be kept secret. The cluster must prepare. Forewarned is forearmed.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2015-05-11 17:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinjin Mokk
Arve Vesren wrote:

Of course, at this stage people are welcome to continue to offer their opinions on the detainment of three individuals who have broken the law in both the Federation and Republic, as well as Interstellar law, however any points raised remain irrelevant.

The three individuals will remain in the custody of the DED until such time as our questioning and investigation is complete, and they are released or criminal charges are formally filed.

The primary objective of the Directive Enforcement Department at this stage is the analysis of the footage and the structure shown within to ascertain whether an upgrade in threat classification is required for the Drifters, and dissemination of that information to various law enforcement and military agencies across the cluster. The secondary objective is the safe recovery of Hilen Tukoss.




In my opinion?

I find this to be a fascinating stance.

According to what we generally know about the DED, your mandate covers protecting CONCORD interests, providing security for CONCORD-sponsored functions and the tracking and prosecution of certain high-profile criminals (great job on getting Sansha Kuvakei and Bloody Omir, by the way). Generally, CAPSULEER criminals. I don't see anything where your mandate allows for the taking of private citizens, to be held indefinitely without charge. Other than that, you provide bounty hunter services.

You say in one sentence that they "are freely working with the Directive Enforcement Department and Eifyr & Co. during their detainment..." I may not be a Gallente, but I think your definition of "free" and the rest of the galaxy's definition are somewhat in opposition. Having them "detained" means to any reasoning being, that they are working under duress. I thought slavery was illegal in your part of space?

Based on your mention of the Corporate Espionage Act YC36 in conjunction with the members of the Scope and/or with Hilen Tukoss, the issue is a breach of corporate IP law. The specifics of the data are irrelevant. It could be the footage we saw or a copied shuttle blueprint. Ergo by law, these are not criminals - at least not until they have been charged, tried and convicted. And even then, cases of IP theft are usually settled for a monetary reimbursement to the offended party. Take them to court, if you feel you must, Are you confirming that this was originally your data and that you withheld it from the public? If so, you would need an arbitrary authority to hold and try them because your corporate heads in CONCORD can't do it due to the inherent conflict of interests.

In short, you have zero right and zero authority to remand or hold these individuals. They must be released. They are not criminals. You have not and cannot prove that they are. If any laws were broken, they are corporate misdemeanors, not capitol offenses. They are not Capsuleers (or are they?).

Incidentally, I recently paid a large sum of ISK to your corporation to increase my standing with your corporation and CONCORD. I will make my financial records available to certain individuals, so if you get it in your pretty little head to call me an outlaw, I can prove that I've paid you the appropriate amount of grease to buy legal redemption. If a similar amount is needed to secure the parole of your current prisoners, my associates and I will happily act as brokers.

To Mr. Tukoss, the members of Scope and any others who seek sanctuary form the corruption of the DED and CONCORD, there is a place for you.

Angels...are never far.

S. Mokk

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Sahriah BloodStone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2015-05-11 18:28:16 UTC
Arve Vesren wrote:
I suppose a little clarification of fact wouldn’t hurt............. Any further questions can be directed to the DED Office of Press.

Regards,

- AV


Ms, Vesren

First, let me personally thank you for taking time to respond to us. We appreciate the efforts made in this regard. I would request a name or point of contact for the DED Office of Press if possible. I am having trouble locating that information.

On the Drifters
I would like to specifically draw your attention to this article on the information regarding the Drifter autopsy reports where you personally stated “given the vast numbers Drifter vessels that appear to be in service, it is best for the dissemination of information relating to their capability to be swift and all inclusive, so that organizations can prepare defense protocols and procedures, if required”

This statement seems to contradict the stance the DED has recently taken in regards to The Scope video. It seems to me that if a large armada has now been seen amassing, that an IMMEDIATE upgrade to the threat classification is called for in order to ensure the safety of those under your care. Obviously if the threat is not substantiated after the investigation completes a de-escalation would be in called for, but I see no reason to delay what could be crucial preparation time, especially after you yourself made statements regarding the possible threat of just a few Drifter vessels in comparison.

We ask for information on how long the DED and CONCORD have known about the Drifters, or any perceived threats in Anokis not specifically categorised as Drifters. For example, the community has expressed concerns about this article

On The Scope employees
We request information on what exactly ‘Section 6 of the Interstellar Corporate Espionage Act YC36’ entails. While we can speculate to what it contains, I would prefer to operate on facts.

According you, Ms Vesren, Eifyr & Co only informed the DED of the existence of this video on May 8th and only AFTER it was illegally sold to The Scope. You currently have no idea how long this video has existed or when it was sent, so there is a strong possibility this critical information may have been lying dormant while a large and likely hostile fleet is amassing within range of the Empires.

I would ask then, in addition to The Scope employees arrests, why have the DED not arrested those in possession of such important information? Would it not considered treason to withhold information potentially vital to the safety of New Eden and its citizens? It seems awfully suspicious that the only people in trouble here are the ones doing exactly as you yourself advised the DED to do with the Drifter Autopsy results, especially considering that a human life, Hilen Tukoss, is on the line. Eifyr & Co’s neglect in doing everything possible to rescue this man, who has risked his life to give us forewarning could be considered gross neglect of employee wellbeing. They should be held accountable.

I will not even attempt to get into how incredibly unsettling it is that the DED and CONCORD did not even make an attempt to defend Yulai during its recent attack, as my response is already quite long. Be assured Ms. Vesren, the capsuleers are watching.

Sahriah Bloodstone

No.Mercy // Triumvirate

"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#80 - 2015-05-11 20:15:45 UTC
Arve Vesren wrote:

The DED was only made aware of the existence of this footage when it was unlawfully sold to The Scope on May 8th, and our offices were contacted by Eifyr & Co regarding theft of digital property.



Fascinating.

Eifyr receives a transmission indicating one of their agents has been possibly killed in an unknown system, by an unknown assailant, and... doesn't notify CONCORD?

You know, interestingly enough, Eifyr & Co was a participant or supporter of the Sisters' ship construction effort. Their logo is on the warp drive ring of the Stratios, even.

Huh.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?