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Get Rid of Tiers (Tiericide Thread)
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Alara IonStorm
#41 - 2011-12-19 17:33:20 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hoping Against Hope the Tier system is removed.

???

Hoping Against Hope -To want something even when the odds against getting it are not high.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#42 - 2011-12-19 18:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
GeneralKool wrote:
I can agree with the OP here.

For instance, there is No point to buying a Cyclone these days, every newbie just skips over it and seasoned players wont think twice about it when the hurricane is better in every aspect. There needs to be a reason to want to buy these T1 ships which seem to just get overlooked.

Eve online has a tremendous amount of ships, but its starting to feel like some of them don't count Sad

Remove insurance.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#43 - 2011-12-19 18:15:21 UTC
GeneralKool wrote:
I can agree with the OP here.

For instance, there is No point to buying a Cyclone these days, every newbie just skips over it and seasoned players wont think twice about it when the hurricane is better in every aspect. There needs to be a reason to want to buy these T1 ships which seem to just get overlooked.

Eve online has a tremendous amount of ships, but its starting to feel like some of them don't count Sad


You are sure about that? Cyclone got some nice pve setups and is cheaper, good choice imo to start level 3 missions and get into a maelstrom later for l4s.

Though I never actually considered using a cane for missions because I was short on money, bought a cyclone and never had issues in l3s till my battleship skills and gunnery skills were high enough. And I think this is still true for new players. The ability to create a decent tank, while dishing out enough damage at range with 5 arties and have the ability to use light missiles against all those frigs in l3 missions is still a sweet combination.

Would I now prefer a cane over a cylone for l3s? Most likely, but I would prefer a battleship/tornado with ab/mwd over that cane in most cases too.

Remove insurance.
Nidokai
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2011-12-22 10:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nidokai
I completely agree and it baffles me why anyone would actually want to keep the tier balance the way it is right now. As it stands, practically half of the tech 1 ships are entirely worthless. Why keep it that way? You (CCP) have a myriad of ships you could revise to be more balanced, and in some cases, just plain usable.

There are some great examples where the tiering systems is less of a hassle and is more of a role difference, and it serves as a showing of the way every class of ships could actually be with minor retooling. The Brutix and the Myrmidon are both usable because they have very different uses. That's a far better approach than making 1 BC nearly useless and the other BC objectively superior in nearly every way.

There are too many ships that are meant to play certain roles, but due to the arbitrary tiering system, their potential is completely wasted. The Omen is meant to be, if it's bonuses are any indication, a fast-firing gunship that prioritizes gank over tank. But it's powergrid limitations make that difficult. The Maller has a great tank.. but literally nothing else going for it. In combat, it sucks, and has no drones. Most of the tech1 EWAR ships just aren't powerful enough to do their jobs, either.

Hell, look at the Augoror. That poor thing has no use, despite it's design as a logistics ship, purely because of the tiering system.

I think this is a great idea, for whatever little my opinion matters. It's a win-win for both sides involved. We players get newfound appreciation for a significant portion of the ships involved, and CCP, instead of spending time designing and speccing out completely new ships, can stick with preexisting assets. Let's hope they take note!

(I freely admit, however, that a future where the Augoror is useful actually sends a shiver up my spine.)
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#45 - 2011-12-22 20:02:51 UTC
Bumping, and also pointing out that more usable t1 ships = more WAR. Hint hint, nudge nudge, CCP Unifex.

Also worth pointing out that there have been zero negative responses in this thread. Well, there's the occasional "But this or that ship has a couple of uses if you fit it right..." which really just proves the point, because only 1 or 2 such ships are ever named out of a pool of 20 ish.

Overhaul Dscan!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#46 - 2011-12-22 20:25:29 UTC
+1. As a mainly frigate/cruiser pilot, the day this happens is the best day ever.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2011-12-25 04:12:29 UTC
Orion X04 wrote:
As a long time Ferox pilot, the Naga has all but removed any use for it so I'm fully in support for a tier 1 buff to bring them back in line.

I've linked to my thread in the hope to raise support and awareness

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=45630&find=unread


Because obviously a fitted Ferox runs about half the price of a fitted Naga, tanks better, has drones, and can fit a neut/ganglink.

The tier system got scewed with the introduction of rigs. Example, back before rigs, you could fit out a t1 rupture or thorax for about 5-6 mil. Now its 12-14 mil with rigs. Same goes for rifters. My T2 fit rifter fits go as high as 5-6 mil now, which is crazy for a T1 frigate.
You used to be able to get effective thorax fits with meta3 mods if you wanted to go cheap, but ISK flows in EVE now like crazy, and the people nowdays absolutely hate losing ships.
The major issue of the tier system is not the strength of the ships, its cost. Rigs and module costs have destroyed the price scaling of ships, and theres no way to easily fix this. Personally I would love to see more ships being used because of cost reasons, but it just isn't happening.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#48 - 2011-12-25 17:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Max Von Sydow wrote:

Cyclone:
+1 mid or +1 low.

Either need more tank or gank, can't deice which but either one should work.


For PVE they also need a bit more cap recharge, since you slap a cap booster on it for PVP, this wouldn't impact.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#49 - 2011-12-25 18:07:14 UTC
Cross posting an excellent post from general:

Alara IonStorm wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
tiericide wont fix the ferox or the prophecy.

It will go along way. People think of Tiericide in simple terms, giving it the same base HP or Slot Number or fittings as the higher tier.

That is the lazy way and why as I said earlier if done they should get it right. At its heart Tiericide is looking at a ship and instead of arbitrarily buffing stats you look at what the ship is and what it means to fly it and ask why, why is it seeing less action then her piers. It means looking at the Higher Tiers that are less used and asking the same.

For Example: perhaps the prophecy could use a Dmg Bonus, perhaps it should have more base tank then the Harbinger or the Harbinger needs less. Perhaps the Harbinger could use an optimal range bonus and some speed for an example to make it a good ranged DPS Boat. Then you test them and see how you like there roles. Are they good with there old roles? Do they need new ones? Do there old roles work but the bonuses, speed, fitting, slots, drones are not up to the task.

You look at each ship, there stats and the ships they will be competing against and try not to make them equal but give them there own tactical niches and weaknesses. When you have that sorted you watch them and see what people are doing for future rebalance. If all works out then the goal of Tiericide is simple, the ships that are used continue as such and the ones who are not get a breath of new life. This ideally includes the T2's which often have the same role but better, many of them can not preform them to snuff so you look at the positive changes to there base models and work at improving them as well or in the case of successfeul Advance Ships pass the love down such as the Zealot to the Omen or Vegabond to the Stabber.

In all it means more fearsome competition between ships. An EVE where there is as much to fear from a Bellicose or Celestis on Field as a Blackbird but for entirely different reasons and for entirely different opponents.

Overhaul Dscan!
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#50 - 2011-12-29 05:18:22 UTC
Aglais wrote:
I support tiericide.

To me, EVE is almost too rigid in some aspects (mostly ships) to be a sandbox. It's good for ships to specialize, but in alot of cases (like the Caldari HACs), they are OVERspecialized, and fit in niche roles that hardly ever come up, whereas there are other ships like Muninn and Vagabond that can be adapted to significantly more situations. Or Ishtar, even.

Un-gimping the cruisers currently being weakened for the sake of tiers would also mean that Caldari pilots wouldn't necessarily have to train hybrids to access their top-tier ships, which has caused LOADS of bawling recently. I don't understand why it should be easy to fit a Moa that can wreck someone's stuff with over 500 DPS after heat, while still having tank and a MWD, but if a Caracal wants to surpass 200 DPS it has to completely scrap tank, and TRY to speed tank while being far too slow to do it, and lacking the low slots for nanos or anything, and thus get stuck at 100km or die.

I also don't get why the Caracal has a fifth med slot that the Moa doesn't have. Inverse tiers?


I 100% agree. Teiricide or the gaps between teirs being shortened needs to happen. Also give the moa that 5th mid slot, it has a shield tank bonus, after all.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#51 - 2011-12-29 16:34:48 UTC
Generally I agree with the idea, particularly for some of the lower tier frigates and cruisers. I don't however believe there needs to be a massive overhaul, but rather some focused tweaks for certain ships. I'm seeing some ships such as the vexor and cyclone mentioned that currently have some extremely powerful out-of-the-box fits that are skill/isk intensive and would become FOTM in a heartbeat with a major improvement.

The T1 logi and ewar ships definitely need to be reviewed, particularly for their slot layout and bonuses.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#52 - 2011-12-29 23:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Agreed. The goal -as I see it- is to make the currently unused hulls more valuable by buffing them up enough that they can fill specific roles. EWAR cruisuers, logi cruisers, sub-par combat cruisers (Omen, etc), and nearly all the t1 frigates could use this treatment. The low tier ships that are already in good shape (Arby, Vexor, etc) would need only some fine tuning to make sure they match the new overall level for their ship class.

I guess a more precise definition of tiericide is "balance by role, not by tiers of cost or power." Which was pretty much what the OP says (Erim Solfara came up with the best design parameters, imo), but there's a specific targeted statement of it for everyone.

Overhaul Dscan!
Clementina
University of Caille
#53 - 2011-12-30 19:24:10 UTC
I support this thread. The tiers do absolutely nothing for the game and it is better for every Frigate, Cruiser, and Battlecruiser to be balanced so that they are equally potent and not intentionally gimped. No player respects the tier system insomuch that after Frigate Flying everyone waits until they have level 3 in Ship flying before flying a ship, and anyone who can buy and fit a ship class can buy the most expensive member of that ship class anyway.
Down with tiers and up with ship variety.
Sebastion Heorod
Hellion Support Services
#54 - 2011-12-31 10:30:45 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
You know, the Burst, Navitas, Bantam and Tormentor still need T2 versions. I wonder what not-game-breaking but wholly useful or at least interesting role they could play. Maybe, tractor beams that can be used on other ships?


you mean like a web?
Sebastion Heorod
Hellion Support Services
#55 - 2011-12-31 10:38:22 UTC
I'm pretty much opposed to this idea, and don't think that ccp will institute it. the reason that their are tiers is to give noobs the ability to fly a class of ship after having devoted a day or two to training for it. Within a week you could be in a ferox, cyclone, whatever if thats what you want. But, if you want a drake, hurricane it takes a little longer.
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2011-12-31 11:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Destructor1792
Sebastion Heorod wrote:
I'm pretty much opposed to this idea, and don't think that ccp will institute it. the reason that their are tiers is to give noobs the ability to fly a class of ship after having devoted a day or two to training for it. Within a week you could be in a ferox, cyclone, whatever if thats what you want. But, if you want a drake, hurricane it takes a little longer.


This^^

The tier system is hooked up to the skill level of that particular ship. It's also a "Heads Up" that higher tiers will likely require more skills trained to get the most out of them (though there are a few exceptions - typhoon anyone Blink ) i.e.

Cruiser Tier 1 = Level 1 of a Cruiser Ship skill trained up to be able to fly it.
Cruiser Tier 2 = Level 2 of a Cruiser Ship skill trained up to be able to fly it.

It gives the newer player a bit of experience in the class of ship before they decide whether they may want to continue on that chosen path.

Yes, it means alot of ships are never really used but hey, that's what you get in any game.

Removing the Tier system is just dumbing down the game.. Thanks but NO Thanks.

What I actually suspect is this has been brought up due to the new Tier 3 BC's & the amount of (i'll be kind here) noobs that kept thinking they were T3's & not Tier 3's Roll

So 1/10 on this idea.

Peace out Twisted

**edited bit**
Was gonna edit this post to make it a bit clearer.. til the forum Gremlin came & gobbled it up! Though I did remember this snippet:

Now whilst you may think that a Tier 3 should be better than a Tier 1, this is actually wrong. What you'll "usually" find is that each Tier of ship can do something the others can't or builds on something that one of the others might do.
Here's a snippet of a convo I had a while back explaining to a new player the basics of the Tier system


new player> Hey, never flown a cruiser before but looking to fly a Rupture. What skills I need?
player> You need to get the minmatar cruiser skill trained along with a few other skills until you jump into it.
new player> okay, looked at the skills to be able to sit in one. Why Have I got to trainer the cruiser skill up to level 3 and not just Level 1 to jump in one?
player> It requires a few more skills than just Cruiser to get the most out of it. Gunnery skills, tanking, etc.
new player> Oh.. so what would you recommend?
player> Get the skill trained to lvl 1 & jump into a scythe to get some experience in flying cruisers. Use the certificates to get an idea of what other skills you need to fly the Rupture & train those up whilst getting experience using your 1st one.
new player> but why does the scythe only need lvl 1 and not a higher level ?
player> It's known as a Tier system. Lower Tier ships are generally much easier to fly & require less skills to be able to fit them out so doesn't take new players long until they're whizzing about in space in one.
new player> oh..
player>If you check out different cruisers, they require a different level of the skill trained to be able to use them. So if you look at the Rupture, it needs level 3 trained so the ship is known as a Tier 3.
new player> So it's a T3 ship?
player>No. Don't get them mixed up. There's 4 types of ship grades you'll come across. Tiers, Tech 1 (T1), Tech 2 (T2) and Tech 3(T3)
new player> ahh, so like the Stabber is a Tier 2 and not a T2
player> Yep, you've got it.
New Player> So what's the difference between T1, T2, & T3 ?
player> err.... lets just concentrate on getting you into your 1st cruiser. We'll talk about that lot later ;-)

and so on.

Not fired a shot in anger since 2011.... Trigger finger is starting to get somewhat itchy.......
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2011-12-31 12:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Destructor1792 wrote:

This^^

The tier system is hooked up to the skill level of that particular ship. It's also a "Heads Up" that higher tiers will likely require more skills trained to get the most out of them (though there are a few exceptions - typhoon anyone Blink ) i.e.

Cruiser Tier 1 = Level 1 of a Cruiser Ship skill trained up to be able to fly it.
Cruiser Tier 2 = Level 2 of a Cruiser Ship skill trained up to be able to fly it.

It gives the newer player a bit of experience in the class of ship before they decide whether they may want to continue on that chosen path.

Yes, it means alot of ships are never really used but hey, that's what you get in any game.

Removing the Tier system is just dumbing down the game.. Thanks but NO Thanks.


This has to be the most confused and petty rebuttal to Tiericide that I've seen. This is almost a parody. Are you serious? Lol
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#58 - 2011-12-31 13:38:41 UTC
Destructor is a troll.

Anyway tiers should be removed, they're just artificial.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#59 - 2011-12-31 18:40:13 UTC
Destructor1792 wrote:

player> Get the skill trained to lvl 1 & jump into a scythe to get some experience in flying cruisers. Use the certificates to get an idea of what other skills you need to fly the Rupture & train those up whilst getting experience using your 1st one.
new player> but why does the scythe only need lvl 1 and not a higher level ?
player> It's known as a Tier system. Lower Tier ships are generally much easier to fly & require less skills to be able to fit them out so doesn't take new players long until they're whizzing about in space in one.


Do you and I play the same game? Really, nobody ever, ever says this. They say the opposite- head straight for the ti3 ship, it has more fitting space and is thus way easier to fit with low skills. Also, cruiser 3 = about 1.5 days of training now. You have successfully identified the idea behind the tier system- however, you have failed to recognize the utter and complete failure of that idea. Which is why it needs to go.

Overhaul Dscan!
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#60 - 2011-12-31 22:24:14 UTC
Sebastion Heorod wrote:
I'm pretty much opposed to this idea, and don't think that ccp will institute it. the reason that their are tiers is to give noobs the ability to fly a class of ship after having devoted a day or two to training for it. Within a week you could be in a ferox, cyclone, whatever if thats what you want. But, if you want a drake, hurricane it takes a little longer.


dude....Straight should i even comment on how 'lack of argument' your statement of; longer training times for bigger ships is??? the tieracide is not going to make all ships equal. please read the thread before attempting to argue!!! (you can just say "not supported" before you try to fail at an argument...)

and to Destructroll
i have to tell you how short sighted your comment is. first as Ines Tegator mentioned, people dont do this. i have flown most of the ships, but more as a "might as well see what it can do" and "this looks cool". not because i was testing the skill set out to see if i wanted to train down a different race. when you look at the stats and fittings, you pretty much decide before hand what you want to fly ("hey, more guns and more tank and better stats? i think i'll fly that one"). if you dont like looking at the stats, then you wont last more than your trail version any way and we dont care what you think. because the beginners you are talking about havent actually paid for the game yet.
And the other part of my argument is, your just wrong... getting rid of tiers will not make much of an impact, if any, on how people try out different things. im sure there will still be price differences and obvious stat differences. people arent asking to make all ships the same (if you actually read the thread), but to push each ship's uniqueness.

rise up for the mass Tieracide!!!!Bear