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Next iteration of overview/bracket icons on Singularity

First post
Author
Baljos Arnjak
Dark Praetorian Order
#61 - 2015-05-10 16:59:22 UTC
I put up some feedback on Sugar Kyles blog that I'll copy/paste here:

Baljos Arnjak wrote:
I like the first new set better, personally. These ones don't look right. I think mainly the shapes that they use have a lot of rounded corners when they shouldn't because it just makes them look messy. Plus the icons themselves don't make a lot of sense, gates shouldn't look like little radar displays. Drones shouldn't look like space invaders, just make them all x's maybe of varying sizes or have different shapes at the intersection. The line under the BC icon doesn't really help in identification, imo. Mobile depot's shouldn't have square icons, they may have similar capabilities to stations, but shouldn't use the same icon if you ask me.

The only problems I had with the first of the new sets was telling the difference between NPC and player ships (which they solved by having one hollow) and drones looked like space invaders and had too many different icons for the different types of drones.

Just a little feedback


I'll go on to say, that you may be over-thinking this and trying to redo everything when only a few things need to be fixed. Things like being able to tell apart subclasses. I like the style of the first new set, but still fail to see why so much work is being put into something that already works pretty well.

Red crosses are fine for NPC's, the criticism of that has always been that the red cross is all we can see of the ship while zoomed out, and since we spend so much of our fighting time zoomed out it feels like we're fighting red crosses instead of ships. You'll need to do a lot more than change icons if you want to fix this.
Almost Hum4n
Almost Human.
#62 - 2015-05-11 17:58:34 UTC
These are bad, old icons done a much better job of conveying what was what, please kill this off like the old (new replacement) module icons tragedy some years back, was ammo icons in that mess as well.? Can't remember.
Raven7032
The Black Company G.C.
Ferrata Victrix
#63 - 2015-05-11 19:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven7032
These icons are really ugly. Please, return back old style icons. And drone icons are making so much mess Twisted
Ensign Kenway
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-05-11 21:01:52 UTC
Jack bubu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-05-12 17:13:09 UTC
Hey ccp while you are at it, how about you give Supercarriers a different icon from normal Carriers..

Dont miss this oportunity
msu320
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-05-13 06:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: msu320
Icons look decent but they should have some [more] transparency on the solid shaded inner regions of the icons.

They also don't match the main UI icons that show up on the left.
thowlimer
Roprocor Ltd
#67 - 2015-05-13 08:12:53 UTC
Better than the first round for sure, i can actually differentiate among most of these in the overview
the problem that i still have is if you get a blobl(15- or more ships/drones) in space and are zoomed
out(so that you can actually get a tactical view) they tend to blur into a some kind of porridge, that
is that its very hard to see any individual icons, you just see a smear where stuff at the edges move.

To reproduce what i am describing gather 15-20 ships in a spot, turn on your tactical overlay
and zoom out(yes i know your art department cries when we do this but a lot of us still do it)
until you have the 100-150 km cicrce visible top/bottom of screen. Now try to see how much useful
information you get from the icons.

Basically they are good in the overview not so much in space and since i believe one of the goals
was to make us _less_ dependant on the overview they still need a fair bit of work.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#68 - 2015-05-13 09:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Alright so, here is my feedback on the new icons:

Most of them are rather dissapointing. I'm sorry to say it, since I know the time and effort that already got into this. Straight
They don't look like an aestetic improvement, they suffer from pixellisation and do not look "clean". I especially think about the stargate icon as a prime example of that.


  • More diversity should be exploited. Making only triangles or squares isn't enough. Use line combinaisons!
  • The absence of any kind of devblog or dev material to give players a list of all icons, forcing us to play "find every ship/drone/npc/structure type to see how it looks" in space, severely hampers feedback.
  • There is a lack of information about what is missing and what is not. For instance, mobile depots are still squares. We were told that squares were most likely caused by the icon not being finished yet. Still, here they are, still squares.
  • Drones are TOO VISIBLE. Drone icons are both more distinct, too pretty, and too big (= same size) compared to ships. Limit all the size of drone icons to 50% of the available icon size. It needs to be visually obvious that drones aren't as important as players or regular ships.
  • Players should have the little square corners still displayed around their icon. It would greatly help differenciate them from NPCs. I know there is the whole "empty or full" icon story about Player or NPC origin, but adding a little more wouldn't hurt.


To illustrate my first point about making more than only triangles or squares, here is a mspaint mockup of what you could do.

Its not great - I can do a photoshoped clean version when I get home if you want -, but seriously take the time to look at it and I'm sure you could find some very interesting suggestions.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

motie one
Secret Passage
#69 - 2015-05-13 09:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
Let's take this reply a step at a time.

Firstly some of the Icons are clearer than your first attempt, these icons make maximum use of the icon space available.

Some of the icons, specifically destroyer and below, are frankly unuseable, these make minimum use of the space available.

The conclusion from this is NOT to use size of icon to differentiate class of ship. Drones etc can certainly be different.

The esthetics, hopefully you do not actually intend to use these icons and they are placeholders not to distract from getting reaction to the use of differentiations? Because they really are quite ugly and unpleasant. But I am pretty sure you already know that.

In short, thank god you did not make the last version live, but this version is definately not near ready for release.
Hopefully you can learn from the feedback to make the third time a charm.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#70 - 2015-05-13 11:35:40 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Alright so, here is my feedback on the new icons:

Most of them are rather dissapointing. I'm sorry to say it, since I know the time and effort that already got into this. Straight
They don't look like an aestetic improvement, they suffer from pixellisation and do not look "clean". I especially think about the stargate icon as a prime example of that.


  • More diversity should be exploited. Making only triangles or squares isn't enough. Use line combinaisons!
  • The absence of any kind of devblog or dev material to give players a list of all icons, forcing us to play "find every ship/drone/npc/structure type to see how it looks" in space, severely hampers feedback.
  • There is a lack of information about what is missing and what is not. For instance, mobile depots are still squares. We were told that squares were most likely caused by the icon not being finished yet. Still, here they are, still squares.
  • Drones are TOO VISIBLE. Drone icons are both more distinct, too pretty, and too big (= same size) compared to ships. Limit all the size of drone icons to 50% of the available icon size. It needs to be visually obvious that drones aren't as important as players or regular ships.
  • Players should have the little square corners still displayed around their icon. It would greatly help differenciate them from NPCs. I know there is the whole "empty or full" icon story about Player or NPC origin, but adding a little more wouldn't hurt.


To illustrate my first point about making more than only triangles or squares, here is a mspaint mockup of what you could do.

Its not great - I can do a photoshoped clean version when I get home if you want -, but seriously take the time to look at it and I'm sure you could find some very interesting suggestions.


quoted for support.

the indu part with barge and orca may get another pass, but overall very usable.

on the icon set currently on sisi; I like that you tried something new! thats how you come up with good ideas. however, it feels not right. I guess I am missing a kind of overall frame/theme making every item appear to belong to a series of icons. the quoted mock-up achieves this by using the same elements in different combinations (more or less).
secondly, the non-filled icons on sisi have way to thin lines. makes them look out of place.
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#71 - 2015-05-13 14:06:01 UTC
It has been one week for this new brackets / icons iteration.
CCP Surge, is it possible now release the full list of new propose icons, so we can take a look without the hassle of buying one of everything in the game?
Also, a big thank you for your effort. Keep with your good work.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#72 - 2015-05-13 14:23:03 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

quoted for support.

the indu part with barge and orca may get another pass, but overall very usable.


Yeah well, the goal isn't to make anything usable, simply to show that there are alternatives, and in the best case scenario, even contribute by suggesting shapes of these alternatives Big smile

Also, I 100% agree with your post. Trying something new is good! But currently the icons are kind of... meh.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Kraizer793
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2015-05-13 19:04:15 UTC
I hopped on earlier, and have some input.

I'm going to ignore some of the aliasing and pixelation issues. I'm going to make the assumption that this is simply a product of these being in development. I'd hope that the ones that go live would be a bit more polished.

The fill design for NPC objects seems good. However, I think the fill is too "thick." The ships are fine overall. They do turn into a bit of a soup at far zoom levels, but the current brackets have a tendency to do that anyway, albeit to a slightly lesser degree. To be fair, though, there's not a lot you can do about this, as any icon you ever use will look like soup when zoomed out very far with 100+ items on screen at any given time.

While flying through space, I was already able to very quickly identify ships once I found the trend. I did not intuitively make the connection between NPC items and player items being filled/non-filled until I read this thread.

Drones need to either be less opaque to allow easier visibility of ships within large groups of drones when viewed in-space, or a change-up in style. Right now, the drones clash with ships in a way that takes away from the visual recogntion when at farther zoom levels or when lots of drones are in play. More prominent ship icons with fainter or more discrete icons for drones (At least in space. Overview this isn't an issue) would be a welcome change.

That's my feedback for the whole set. I do want to point out a few specific icon issues, however.

1. I have repeatedly warped to a TCU instead of a station instinctively. I've also tried to, reflexively, warp to mobile depots thinking they were stations in a "I need to GTFO" moment. Given that TCUs are typically on a POS surounded with bubbles, this could be a VERY big problem initially. Perhaps make player structures a different shape from those of stations, to keep station icons very unique in order to prevent this.

2. Supercariers need their own icon to differentiate them from carriers.

3. Battleship icon is very distinctive, but doesn't feel as if it fits with the rest. It looks like it should be for a smaller, more agile craft, and not for a big beefy warship. Perhaps flip the large pentagon-shape that cruisers use for the battleship icon and vice versa. This would be a much more organic transition from the small triangle of the frigate, to the taller, more pointed triangle of a cruiser, to a big,beefy triangle for a battleship. Not sure how the Battlecruiser icon would look with this adjustment, however.

Anyway, until the next iteration, that's my 0.02. Overall, I like where it's going, but still needs work.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#74 - 2015-05-14 01:02:24 UTC
These icons are horribly distracting and really don't add anything. Drones in particular are really hard to distinguish between ships as they used to be very minimalist.

If you are hellbent on forcing these changes through, please add an option to use the old bracket icons. PLEASE.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Darth PUPPETMASTER
GREENSPACE
#75 - 2015-05-14 02:22:00 UTC
Another thing while we're on the subject of UI icons: is it really impossible to make them visible in space behind blurred windows? This issue has not been adressed since the introduction of windows blur ...
Torrent Talon
Metaphysical Quantum Anomaly Research Laboratory
#76 - 2015-05-14 02:49:56 UTC
I'm all for things that add clarity to the game, but this clutters the hell out of making sense of grid for me.

dreynar swyglou
Riemannian Manifold Torus
#77 - 2015-05-14 04:51:50 UTC
Went on the test server to check out the new 'features' and I must say I'm disapointed.As someone who was used with the curent icons for about 8 years now I feel a less intrusive set of changes would be better.

For example keep the old icons curently ingame for frigate cruiser and battleship and add new icons for stuff like destroyer battlecruiser and capital ships,for drones distinctive icons for only combat,e-war,logistic,fighter and fighter bomber(and no not the space invader type icons).

As for structures and celestials the important things like stations,gates,sun,planets,belts could remain the same or be only slightly modified(again making an easy transition for players) and things like POS modules or beacons could be revamped entirely.

And to top it off if you insist on these changes make them optional to keep everyone happy,
Nilaie
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2015-05-14 07:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nilaie
Altrue wrote:
Alright so, here is my feedback on the new icons:

Most of them are rather dissapointing. I'm sorry to say it, since I know the time and effort that already got into this. Straight
They don't look like an aestetic improvement, they suffer from pixellisation and do not look "clean". I especially think about the stargate icon as a prime example of that.


  • More diversity should be exploited. Making only triangles or squares isn't enough. Use line combinaisons!
  • The absence of any kind of devblog or dev material to give players a list of all icons, forcing us to play "find every ship/drone/npc/structure type to see how it looks" in space, severely hampers feedback.
  • There is a lack of information about what is missing and what is not. For instance, mobile depots are still squares. We were told that squares were most likely caused by the icon not being finished yet. Still, here they are, still squares.
  • Drones are TOO VISIBLE. Drone icons are both more distinct, too pretty, and too big (= same size) compared to ships. Limit all the size of drone icons to 50% of the available icon size. It needs to be visually obvious that drones aren't as important as players or regular ships.
  • Players should have the little square corners still displayed around their icon. It would greatly help differenciate them from NPCs. I know there is the whole "empty or full" icon story about Player or NPC origin, but adding a little more wouldn't hurt.


To illustrate my first point about making more than only triangles or squares, here is a mspaint mockup of what you could do.

Its not great - I can do a photoshoped clean version when I get home if you want -, but seriously take the time to look at it and I'm sure you could find some very interesting suggestions.


Good stuff. With the proposed icons I can look @ them and easily get the information I am looking for quickly. There is no guess work in what I'm looking at. Currently I have to look @ the icon and read the ship type before I have all the information.,


EDIT: Im not completely against the new icons, they will take a little getting used to, I just think that there should be some work put in to help me discern the information quicker.
CCP Surge
C C P
C C P Alliance
#79 - 2015-05-14 16:13:29 UTC
Hey guys, checking back in here and reading your feedbacks.

I've been doing a bit of polish on these in the meantime, as well adding many new ones, especially for POS and deployables that we simply never had before.

Some of the other updates you might notice on Sisi:
- No more pacman stargates :)
- Cleaned up some of the jagged pixels around the diagonals. Even though we tried a more utilitarian approach to these with crisp clear lines some of these were simply too distracting.
- Pass on the drone brackets to make them smaller overall; the reduced pixel weight makes them easier to filter out in a throng of ships

There are some aesthetic criticisms floating about. I won't shy away from that. The take on this particular set of icons was much more Military and Utilitarian themed; thus trying to stick with a lot of simple lines and shapes that would be easy to identify at a glance. However the old icons were even simpler in many ways, and I'm open to discussing what you guys found aesthetically pleasing about them.

On a few other points brought up here:

- Blobbing of brackets at really high zoom levels: I agree in-space brackets can still get messy with a lot of ships on grid. We already have some tech in place to help manage this like the mouse-over tooltip, but more can be done. I'll also tease that there are some projects underway surrounding a brand new tactical overlay; one that will give you better control over which in-space brackets show up in your HUD, and at which zoom levels :)

- A blurrier distinction between NPC and player ship icons: The NPCs have a light fill and I agree that the old crosses were dead simple to distinguish from players, although they had less info to convey. I'm just curious which parts of gameplay do you guys find the lack of being able to tell players and NPCs apart from one another quick most noticeable? I'm just looking for more reasons to make the distinction more clear.
xartin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2015-05-14 16:40:12 UTC
I've been on the test server recently doing some pve content and just like to add that i find the new Ui icons especially for ships very difficult to distinguish the differences between different ship classes.

If i was doing pvp with this new icon set I would surely be at a great tactical disadvantage over the current icon set that has been standard to eve for as long as i have been playing. I likely would not even engage in pvp with the "new icon set due to the very subtitle differences between icons for various ship classes.

Additionally I was both in a fleet and not in a fleet and immediately could not locate a fleet member's battleship on grid because the ship's bracket icon was entirely covering the ship model from a distance.

I appreciate that you guys are trying to find active content things to fill in features for your "rapid release cycle" but if changes such as this are what you guys are planning it's not been a positive change.

The beta eve map is another prime example. It's fancy but completely absent any practical benefit over a currently available feature.

In my work as an IT systems engineer over the last 20 years one phrase has always been the golden rule to success and winning and avoiding your best laid plans going to hell in a handbasket.

"I enabled it because it looks cool."

You guys did this with the eve map and the entire eve community has already disabled it and reverted back to the map we've had for the last 7 years or more.

Please whatever you do dont add these new ship icon sets to tranquility. They are really absent a lot of needed clear definition between ship classes.

Also life lesson tip:

If your mom didn't tell you when you were a kid that wearing a bowtie was definitely not going to score you any cool points you may be the person or persons that made these new icon sets.