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Next iteration of overview/bracket icons on Singularity

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Author
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-05-06 22:14:54 UTC
The point about the relative importance of ships vs drones is true, but they shouldn't be too small. Maybe they need thinner profiles.

Okay played around with this a bit. I like the ship classes, I like the drone classes with the caveat above (tried them all), I like the player vs NPC vs hostile NPC distinction, all that's good.

Found one bug not listed as a known bug: circadian seekers are still red crosses instead of a ship icon.

Now the bad:

  • Pacman stargates. Apart from looking a bit silly and chunky, I feel like they should have a square profile as they're structures.
  • The new wreck brackets (only visible in space currently) don't distinguish at a glance whether they have anything in them as well as the old. It'd also be nice if bigger wrecks looked different.
  • Mobile depots and MTUs have a huge bracket! They look more like stations than little personal deployables, I want to dock in one when I see it.
  • Pods don't really look distinct enough from ships.
  • Beacons..... bleh, I don't know, I just don't like it. It's not a shape that I can really process at a glance. Also it's not distinguishing NPC from player, at least cynos should look different.
  • Corpses still don't have a bracket (yes I know it would clutter space but they could have one in the overview). A little stick figure would probably not be too out of place?


Overall I think this is progress and significantly better than the previous attempt at changing brackets.
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#22 - 2015-05-06 22:40:41 UTC
CCP Surge wrote:
Ah and I forgot to mention, it's a bit of a tease that I'm explaining about these icons without sharing any kind of image or preview of the new family for you to look at ;)

Bare with me, it is a little experiment that I would like to try out, to solicit feedback on them only in the live in-game environment. I think it is more raw and helpful that way, as opposed to looking at a design sheet out of context at least.

I will post the full icon sheet for you all to look the full family in one place later. Until then please hold onto your butts and wait for the new icons to go live on Sisi.


Umm, so we have until the next major patch to give you enough feedback incase its not good or functional...and we have to do it all the old fashioned way of buying everything from every possible catagory, then spacing it ourselves, just to give you the feedback.

There was plenty of very helpful feedback last time just based on the themes you guys were going with.

Initial quick peek feedback, the icons for POS labs vs manufacturing arrays, how does it make since that the labs are the 'power coil/smoke stack' looking one, and the manufacturing arrays are...the same thing? I mean, its better than the manufacturing arrays using the lab beaker...i guess.

Ships look like houses from Monopoly?

It still seems like you guys are trying to make things more complicated than they should be. Stargates blend in too easy with everything else as they are a bit too complicated.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-05-07 00:44:55 UTC
I just hoped on SISI and what a disaster...

At least fix star gates brackets so they are easily distinguishable.

Been around since the beginning.

Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#24 - 2015-05-07 00:57:15 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
I just hoped on SISI and what a disaster...

At least fix star gates brackets so they are easily distinguishable.

yes, they look like ugly pie charts now...how does a pie-chart signify inter-system travel?
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#25 - 2015-05-07 02:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangeresque Too
CCP Surge wrote:
Ah and I forgot to mention, it's a bit of a tease that I'm explaining about these icons without sharing any kind of image or preview of the new family for you to look at ;)

Bare with me, it is a little experiment that I would like to try out, to solicit feedback on them only in the live in-game environment. I think it is more raw and helpful that way, as opposed to looking at a design sheet out of context at least.

I will post the full icon sheet for you all to look the full family in one place later. Until then please hold onto your butts and wait for the new icons to go live on Sisi.
Here's the easy solution to that... post an image of the icons in context... not shown in their oversized spaced out design template, but in game where people will see them.

Like this http://i.imgur.com/9QH5Gzk.png, and its a heck of a lot easier for you to just place 1 of everything than it is for us to buy, load, jetison, rinse, repeat until we sufficiently fill the space. And like in this example, I got tired and gave up after only buy 2/3 of the drones, and I wasn't going to be bothered to find a system with a wider variety of celestials/beacons/etc, nor was I going to setup a POS in order to anchor 1 of everything to give a proper lookover/comparison.

Maybe it would help the whole process if the icons were designed from the ground up "in context", which you appear to be saying they were designed "out of context". I am very grateful you realized at least in some small way that not everything needed a unique individual icon, but still needs a lot of refinement.

So now for some in context feedback...

1) EVERY single frigate hull falls into the same icon, EXCEPT the mining frigate and the noobship? Why? Both are used for combat and are frigate sized hulls, and we can very quickly identify if it is a Venture or a Ibis by reading the Type column...

2) Not sure how the rest of the caps look, but Dreads are near indistinguishable from a Cruiser... slight difference there in actual size.

3) Cargo containers, a box with a line through it like it is something that is empty? I'm confused here.

4) Wrecks, which icon is it supposed to be, the old MTU or the old wreck?

5) Deployables looking like stations.

6) Shuttles are NOT UFO's... please fix, or just make them a frigate icon, that is their size... again, if we need detailed info we will get it from the ship name or the type columns, not the icon.

7) THANK GOODNESS FOR NOT 27 SEPARATE DRONE ICONS!!!! Except they are over-done and need more work. I don't see what is wrong with the TQ drone icons, they were very quick and easy to tell it was a drone. And again, if we needed to bother ourselves with any further information about what type of drone we would simply hover over it or look at the overview columns.

8) I really extremely like that all of the industrials have the same icon, since they are the same size and are generally non-combatants.

9) Stargates are just wrong looking, the current one on TQ would work just fine in this new system would it not? Maybe with slight modification (read not over-enlargement and terribad design changes). It doesn't need to be that much larger than everything else.

Maybe someone will go one step further than I cared to do with my precious few hours this evening and make a more complete mockup with a full POS, more celestials and a gambit of NPCs.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#26 - 2015-05-07 03:03:04 UTC
Much better than the previous effort. I like that you can distinguish drone types. The drone icons command roughly the same attention and have the same essential outline as player ships. Maybe if they were a little more subtle? Then again, I was just watching a Gila at work, and its drones might as well be player ships...

I'm finding that the Overview is defaulting to the old icons for a few things (notably, wrecks). Is this just a cacheing issue?

I have to agree with the consensus that the stargate icon is bad. It's too big, it looks like a celestial, and the combination of the white arc and the grey fill of the rest of the circle looks messy. Maybe four white-filled triangles pointing in, arranged to make a box? Maybe the old model, but with a square instead of a circle?

Everything else will take some getting used to--yes, I tried docking in the Gila pilot's mobile depot--but overall, things seem clear and iconic and easily distinguished.

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I voted in CSM X!

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#27 - 2015-05-07 08:06:16 UTC
After looking at the full list of icons, I think I prefer the original (first) draft from way back. This batch of icons reminds me of my Atari 2600...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#28 - 2015-05-07 09:05:10 UTC
9/10, much MUCH better than the first iteration! Thank you very much for being willing to revisit the design. I very much like that we can distinguish ship class based on shape rather than size. Of course, it will take a while to get used to the new designs but that's OK.

A few relatively minor items:

1. Seekers are still crosses.
2. I'd prefer pods to be more obviously pod-like. The old icon is instantly identifiable.
3. Deployables are a bit confusing, probably size-related.

I like the asteroid belts a lot!

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Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#29 - 2015-05-07 09:21:42 UTC
Naaah. The old icons looked cool and modern sci-fi-y. The new ones look 80's arcade.
CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2015-05-07 09:23:22 UTC
So to answer a few concerns I am seeing many people raise:

Seekers are still crosses
This is a known issues and I should have added it to the known issues list, I will do this now.

Deployables are a bit confusing
Yep, we are currently looking at new icons or other icons for the deployables, as the white square was not supposed to be getting used with them, or anything really, so if you see the white square after we update the deployables, this will be a bug report.

Overview showing old wreck icons
This is a known issue, I have it listed on the sisi feature thread but I will update this dedicated thread with the known issues, my bad.

POS module icons make no sense
This is another known issue, we are working at getting the correct icons on the correct modules.

Beacons.....
We are changing these, we are also not happy with how they look in client.

Asteroids look like small TV's
This is another known issue that is listed on the sisi feature thread, but should be listed on the dedicated thread as well, updating now.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#31 - 2015-05-07 09:31:12 UTC
Added the known issues and I will do my best to keep this list up to date.

Thank you for pointing out that it was missing from this dedicated thread.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#32 - 2015-05-07 11:14:04 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
So to answer a few concerns I am seeing many people raise:

Beacons.....
We are changing these, we are also not happy with how they look in client.

Asteroids look like small TV's
This is another known issue that is listed on the sisi feature thread, but should be listed on the dedicated thread as well, updating now.
So this almost reads to me as though they weren't designed with the client in mind and then put into the client to see how they looked at that scale... about about you design something with a vector starting at the scale of the client, and then expand it from there.

And I'm still a supporter of combining the ship classes into S, M, L, XL... it would help eliminate the subtle differences between groups of ships that use the same class of weapons/mods.

When I get home from work tonight I might do up some examples of current icons compared to new icons for some stuff and why they are wrong and should just use the old ones (stargates for example).
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#33 - 2015-05-07 11:41:11 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
CCP Surge wrote:
Ah and I forgot to mention, it's a bit of a tease that I'm explaining about these icons without sharing any kind of image or preview of the new family for you to look at ;)

Bare with me, it is a little experiment that I would like to try out, to solicit feedback on them only in the live in-game environment. I think it is more raw and helpful that way, as opposed to looking at a design sheet out of context at least.

I will post the full icon sheet for you all to look the full family in one place later. Until then please hold onto your butts and wait for the new icons to go live on Sisi.
Here's the easy solution to that... post an image of the icons in context... not shown in their oversized spaced out design template, but in game where people will see them.

Like this http://i.imgur.com/9QH5Gzk.png, and its a heck of a lot easier for you to just place 1 of everything than it is for us to buy, load, jetison, rinse, repeat until we sufficiently fill the space. And like in this example, I got tired and gave up after only buy 2/3 of the drones, and I wasn't going to be bothered to find a system with a wider variety of celestials/beacons/etc, nor was I going to setup a POS in order to anchor 1 of everything to give a proper lookover/comparison.


This, but I was too lazy to type it all out. I'm not going out finding all the things, and then trying to figure out if its a bug or a new icon. You show us what is intended, then we can judge it.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2015-05-07 11:45:58 UTC
Quote:

So this almost reads to me as though they weren't designed with the client in mind and then put into the client to see how they looked at that scale... about about you design something with a vector starting at the scale of the client, and then expand it from there.


Not at all, it is just that when we really looked at them in the client with all the context we discovered we had a better icon to use.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#35 - 2015-05-07 13:21:08 UTC
The new wreck icons are terrible at conveying the fact its empty/full. It looks as if there is something infront of it, not part of it. That little 'cargo can' that is set above/apart from the triangle simply doesn't function as well. Thats why we some of the current TQ stuff over some of these new changes that seem like they were designed in a vacuum....they have FUNCTIONALITY.

Also, i noticed you didn't address the fact that cruisers and dreads have nearly the same icon.

Drone icons are too important looking...the current TQ works...its a drone, thats all we really need to know...unless its a snake-owned Gecko...we still don't really need that many classes of drone icons. (the fact that CCP thought we needed 27 of them in the first place reveals the disconnect and designing in a vacuum) Attempting to show drone function with the icon is simply a bad idea.

Why have a whole separate 'class' for a mear two hulls..."mining frigate"....ventures and prospects should just fall under "frigate", as well as newbships.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-05-07 15:26:22 UTC
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
Drone icons are too important looking...the current TQ works...its a drone, thats all we really need to know...unless its a snake-owned Gecko...we still don't really need that many classes of drone icons. (the fact that CCP thought we needed 27 of them in the first place reveals the disconnect and designing in a vacuum) Attempting to show drone function with the icon is simply a bad idea.


Scout vs sentry vs logi vs ewar vs fighter is a very useful distinction. Fighter vs fighter bomber I'm not so sure about, and I don't think there's any need for mining and salvaging drones to have different icons from each other.
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
#37 - 2015-05-07 15:37:09 UTC
good work, keep it up!
dreynerex
Black Bongo Bashers from the Bush
#38 - 2015-05-07 18:43:10 UTC
Just had a look at this on Singularity and must say I am greatly disapointed.The curent system altho old as it may be provides a great amount of simplicity,also keep in mind the vast majority of your playerbase are used to this old system for years now some for over a decade.I think icon changes should be made in a sensible and simple way where they are absolutely necessary.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#39 - 2015-05-07 22:57:35 UTC
You should try to get away from the restriction of having a distinct outline with a darker (or no) background.

Current NPC red crosses lack the outline, and yet they aren't bad at all.

Plus, it would allow you to operate with much more diversity, and truly distinguish player ship types from NPC ship types.

Look at what I can do, on the top of my head, with lines that are not outlined. : https://i.gyazo.com/175ee65723638f836dcf89b60cf03ee4.png

That's quite a lot of diversified stuff, enough to cover all kinds of NPCs. No need to make triangles, and triangles, and triangles everywhere.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#40 - 2015-05-08 10:59:19 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Scout vs sentry vs logi vs ewar vs fighter is a very useful distinction. Fighter vs fighter bomber I'm not so sure about, and I don't think there's any need for mining and salvaging drones to have different icons from each other.


No it is not. In a fight when you have to make split second desicions and your focus is elsewhere, you really don't want to memorize 38947372920785472846762561634840 drone icons, you just want to know 'this is ze drone, kill it or ignore it'.

If you can take a look at what kind of drone it is, you use your drone overview tab.

Which reminds me, we need an overview option to 'untick' your own drones from the overview list but still show the drones moving around in space which all the rest of selectable icons so you don't start shooting them by accident.

I was told to keep my opinions on the icons to myself, so I am keeping with them.

But what I can tell you is that there will be some time of confusion and upset voices in the future.

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