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Sinking minerals: is PvP what makes the EVE economy go round?

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GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#161 - 2015-06-11 11:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Interesting argument. In the original claim OP suggests that PvE combat is a resource sink. In order for this to be true PvE combat would have to use more resources than it gains. There is a hidden assumption there that resources and isk are not connected. I would suggest that isk is a resource. In an artificial world like New Eden, each resource just comes down to a number and how it can be used. Put in minerals, out comes a ship. Cool. Minerals are a resource, they generate something. Simple.

[snip]

That gets to my real contention with OPs argument. It seems to be suggesting, without directly saying, that resource sinks are a good thing. Cool, I kind of agree with that, but I don't think PvE resource sinks are a good thing. The driving force behind most PvE in eve is resource creation. The alternative motivator is accomplishment.


ISK, like all currency is NOT a resource. ISK is a facilitator of trade and has little to no intrinsic value...it is what is known as fiat money. Fiat money has value because we have been told it has value (by CCP) and we believe it. Given this ISK is not a resource if you think of resources as being productive or having intrinsic value (e.g., ore, moon goo, etc.).

As such your claim that PvE generates a resource, that is ISK, is not really accurate. ISK is not a resource. You cannot use ISK, by itself, to make anything in the Eve economy. In fact, more ISK entering the economy means that inflation goes up.

As for resource sinks, my view is that the resource sinks (i.e. stuff blowing up) is what allows the Eve economy to function with such a high growth rate of money. That is, the destruction of actual in game goods (ships, mods, etc.) allows the economy to support a very high rate of growth in the money supply. To the extent that the OP points to the importance of resource sinks the OP is correct. The claim that PvE sinks more resources is almost surely false.

I got the feeling that the OP assumed that resources were used to create the rat ships and loot drops and the loot that was destroyed. However, I do no think this was the case. My guess is rats spawn out of "thin air" and CCP does not stop to think about how much a rat BS should use in terms of minerals and remove them, somehow, from the market. All that PvE is left with in terms of a resource sink is ammo...which in the end is pretty small potatoes. Hence the biggest ISK sink is PvP losses where everything that is lost has likely been made by another player in game--i.e. the resource sink is much, much larger.

The bottom line, IMO, is that the PvP destruction in this game is what allows the in game economy to function with such a high growth rate of money. Doing anything to change the amount of destruction might very well result in CCP having to curtail the growth rate of ISK. Such changes could be reduction in rat bounties, reduction in the frequency of anomalies, etc.


You say that isk is not a resource because you cannot use it, by itself', to make anything in the eve economy. In a real world economy sure, this is the case, money only has the value that some body gives it, but in Eve you can actually trade set amounts of isk for set things. BPCs from LP stores are probably an easy one to point to. You put in isk (it's not traded, it's actually removed from the artificial pool) and you get out a virtual 'thing'.

Then we have services. Fees for all sorts of ****. Repairs, sov, corp offices, war decs. All of these consume isk as if it was a resource instead of it trading hands as a traditional currency. It is entirely because Eve is an artificial world where isk is consumed that makes it different. We have been told it has a value because we know exactly what we can get for it.


Those are all ISK sinks that you named - they would be unnecessarily in RL with credit expansion & contraction cycles, but you can't simulate that in a game.

ISK is currency.

CONCORD is a central bank.

Some people leveraged this with ISBotter and were literally printing ISK.

Whether bounties should be considered as a paycheck, or a loan with no credit checks and no repayment requirement is another question.

It would be more accurate to view it as a wage for the work done for the respective corporations/factions, who themselves, lets say, take out loans from CONCORD under mysterious conditions in the first place. Blink

Resources are absolutely everything that is not ISK - their generation, mining, procurement & yield rates should ideally match the ISK inflows after sinks to keep inflation in check.

Which didn't happen with ISBotter, so they shut that window down.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2015-06-11 15:34:05 UTC
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
[

You say that isk is not a resource because you cannot use it, by itself', to make anything in the eve economy. In a real world economy sure, this is the case, money only has the value that some body gives it, but in Eve you can actually trade set amounts of isk for set things. BPCs from LP stores are probably an easy one to point to. You put in isk (it's not traded, it's actually removed from the artificial pool) and you get out a virtual 'thing'.

Then we have services. Fees for all sorts of ****. Repairs, sov, corp offices, war decs. All of these consume isk as if it was a resource instead of it trading hands as a traditional currency. It is entirely because Eve is an artificial world where isk is consumed that makes it different. We have been told it has a value because we know exactly what we can get for it.

Anyway, it looks like on the important point we agree. PvP is the biggest resource/isk sink, and we need it around to slow the growth of the economy.


Trading ISK for "things" (goods and services) is exactly what I meant by ISK being a facilitator of trade. That is what people do with dollars, pounds, euros, etc. The fact that some of these trades are ISK sinks does not change this. This does not make ISK a resource, it is still nothing more than fiat money. Not that that is bad. It allows for a staggering number of transactions in game.

But yes, this game needs PvP to maintain the current rate of growth of ISK. On that we quite agree. Big smile

Note: I removed previous discussion to save space.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Redbull Spai
Twenty Questions
#163 - 2015-06-11 21:36:11 UTC
Heres a suggestion.

Make drones use ammo. Drone ammo should be relatively cheap, and *very* light. Have 'ammo packs' for each of the 4 factions, each ammo pack is good for 10 or so shots, and drones can hold 20 or so packs - so for example you can have an 'Amarr Drone Ammo Pack' which is manufactured as normal and gives the drone 10 shots.

Ammo packs come in 3 types, standard, advanced (for T2 drones, geckos and fighters), and XL (fighterbombers). Standard uses highsec minerals, advanced uses all 8 minerals and possibly a couple of PI items too, while XL uses huge amounts of minerals.

To help the UI, get rid of all shields on drones, add the HP to armour, and use the old shield bar on the UI for ammo. Drones returning drop unused ammo into the cargobay, rounding down any odd shots (so if the drone left with 20 packs, 200 shots, fired one shot and returned, you would only get 19 packs, 190 shots, back in your cargo).
Brapi
Doomheim
#164 - 2015-06-12 17:17:39 UTC
The talk regarding ISK being insignificant is an apex observation.

Originally, the markets needed to be seeded with BPO.

The BPO were bought with rat-farmed ISK, and tied to Belt mined ore to make modules and ships.

I shouldn't have to assume that blueprints were free from activity simply because we are now at such a stage of market saturation to simply ignore this fact.

It's this history that portrays rat-farmed ISK as a resource. The way inflation is a risk in terms of manufacturing output is a matter of manufacturers, their projection of demand based on their metered supply and the number of consumers, if anything blowing up ships is driving inflation, as things become more scarce and the highest net witholding of ISK is sky-high and the average is povops.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#165 - 2015-06-12 17:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
It is a resource upto the point that it becomes currency. Blink Your example is of a Legal Tender concept.

All trades transacted between capsuleers have always required ISK - it has always been currency.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#166 - 2015-06-12 17:31:30 UTC
Brapi wrote:
The talk regarding ISK being insignificant is an apex observation.

Originally, the markets needed to be seeded with BPO.

The BPO were bought with rat-farmed ISK, and tied to Belt mined ore to make modules and ships.

I shouldn't have to assume that blueprints were free from activity simply because we are now at such a stage of market saturation to simply ignore this fact.

It's this history that portrays rat-farmed ISK as a resource. The way inflation is a risk in terms of manufacturing output is a matter of manufacturers, their projection of demand based on their metered supply and the number of consumers, if anything blowing up ships is driving inflation, as things become more scarce and the highest net witholding of ISK is sky-high and the average is povops.



Money is not a resource unless it is commodity based (gold, bronze, etc., and there is the intermediate case where you have commodity backed money). It is something that facilitates trade and has little to no intrinsic value.

Or to put it differently, the ONLY thing you can do with ISK is use it to buy stuff that does have value (BPOs, BPCs, ships, ore, modules, etc.). You can use it for nothing else. In this regard it has less value than real world cash which you could use to...start a fire, use as insulation in a make shift sleeping bag, etc.

Given this ISK is a fiat currency (like most modern real life currencies). ISK works as a facilitator of trade because CCP has declared it to be legal tender in game, and we believe it and that CCP wont do anything too terribly stupid with regards to money creation.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#167 - 2015-06-12 17:33:19 UTC
To be clear, if CCP did screw things up and players lost their faith in ISK it would be possible that players created another currency, but one that would be commodity based. However, in such a situation the economy would be in terrible shape and that would likely be the end of the game, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brapi
Doomheim
#168 - 2015-06-12 17:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Brapi
You know, I'd completely forgotten that CONCORD was the issuing body for ISK, and that it arises as a note of credit based on the provision of capsuleer services against a criminal threat.

Although when compared with;

Currency evolved from two basic innovations, both of which had occurred by 2000 BC. Originally money was a form of receipt, representing grain stored in temple granaries in Sumer in ancient Mesopotamia, then Ancient Egypt.

In this first stage of currency, metals were used as symbols to represent value stored in the form of commodities

Then, the lack of tangible resources to which it is tied, and the determining government (CCP acting as) CONCORD setting the value against the perceived expulsion of crime makes this a very complicated and enjoyable thing.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2015-06-12 18:23:31 UTC
Brapi wrote:
The talk regarding ISK being insignificant is an apex observation.

Originally, the markets needed to be seeded with BPO.

The BPO were bought with rat-farmed ISK, and tied to Belt mined ore to make modules and ships.

I shouldn't have to assume that blueprints were free from activity simply because we are now at such a stage of market saturation to simply ignore this fact.

It's this history that portrays rat-farmed ISK as a resource. The way inflation is a risk in terms of manufacturing output is a matter of manufacturers, their projection of demand based on their metered supply and the number of consumers, if anything blowing up ships is driving inflation, as things become more scarce and the highest net witholding of ISK is sky-high and the average is povops.


You used to be able to get BPC/BPO from missions.
Brapi
Doomheim
#170 - 2015-06-12 18:51:43 UTC

I think the general point being overlooked is that by using skill and 'service' to remove 'criminals', a fictional government (CCP as CONCORD) originally fed players a standing with it's member governments (CCP as Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar) for a limited right to those ficitonal government or npc owned rights, npcs dont purchase the rights back.

You couldn't use ISK to buy minerals from NPCs. Currency would facilitate trade between players and npcs for minerals, as there was demand.

Due to capsuleers being the only party in receipt of new ISK printed by CCP as CONCORD it is a resource, one that can be extracted from the envisioned environment of CCP as CONCORD. This changes with Sleeper Loot further along the timeline, when it's arguable that the NPCs might not even have secured enough ISK from capsuleers to purchase the sleeper loot. Then PI costs, meaning it became a currency, like silver in coins. Gresham's Law would have us trading minerals as good money, and forgetting all about ISK (bad money not worth the number ascribed to it)

This doesn't invalidate it's use as a currency, but the difference in npcs recognising ISK as a legitimate token for rights / commodities renders it's solvent use null as a currency.

I was wrong, because reasons.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#171 - 2015-06-12 19:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Aza Ebanu wrote:

You used to be able to get BPC/BPO from missions.


EVE's economy could totally function on a barter basis, if we ransacked the Universities for Skillbooks and major Corporations for BPOs. Pirate

WHO. RUNS. BARTERTOWN? ლ(´ڡ`ლ)

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2015-06-12 19:46:34 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

You used to be able to get BPC/BPO from missions.


EVE's economy could totally function on a barter basis, if we ransacked the Universities for Skillbooks and major Corporations for BPOs. Pirate

WHO. RUNS. BARTERTOWN? ლ(´ڡ`ლ)

I'd totally support this kind of gameplay. They could even add pirate faction BPOs to the exploration mix.
Cyborg Girl86
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2015-06-12 20:14:36 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Your mistake is assuming that PvP players only do PvP, they know how the other bits of the game work and see them as extensions of their traditional PvP activities.
I see this all the time.

For some reason carebears believe that ...
... because they only carebear ...
... combat oriented players only do that.

From the same root grows the silly idea that ...
... without carebears ...
... we'd have no ships.


This is one of the best points to show how Ignorance is dictating their views.


Very true.

A lot of the hard left "carebear" PVE only advocates, who are just as guilty as some of the hard right PVP elitists, argue that a player in this game can only specialize in either PVE or PVP and not both.

This is far from the truth, and a lot of people engage in both facets of the game. I myself for example, use manufacturing to turn a profit, but at the same time I go on solo LS roams for PVP action. I might not be the best in PVP and my killboard is practically empty (just started getting into PVP and still "learning the ropes") but I enjoy doing it for fun.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2015-06-12 20:41:02 UTC
The problem with a barter economy is the dual coincidence of want, it puts a constraint on economic transactions. The improbability of wants coinciding would limit the number of economic transactions. What would likely occur is a new form of currency, one that is based on an actual in-game commodity.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#175 - 2015-06-12 20:42:10 UTC
GankYou wrote:


WHO. RUNS. BARTERTOWN? ლ(´ڡ`ლ)


Master Blaster.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#176 - 2015-06-12 23:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Teckos Pech wrote:
GankYou wrote:


WHO. RUNS. BARTERTOWN? ლ(´ڡ`ლ)


Master Blaster.


Who. Runs. Bartertown? Say it, louder. ლ(´ڡ`ლ)

A barter system would eventually develop several types of currencies for any given sector, or even multiple at a time - thence money is born. Bear

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2015-06-13 05:09:49 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
GankYou wrote:


WHO. RUNS. BARTERTOWN? ლ(´ڡ`ლ)


Master Blaster.


Who. Runs. Bartertown? Say it, louder. ლ(´ڡ`ლ)

A barter system would eventually develop several types of currencies for any given sector, or even multiple at a time - thence money is born. Bear


I would like to see this as an experiment in game (at least the economist part of me), but it would be a rather risky route for CCP, so I can see them watching the money supply, its growth rate and the like.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#178 - 2015-06-14 00:59:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Given this ISK is a fiat currency (like most modern real life currencies). ISK works as a facilitator of trade because CCP has declared it to be legal tender in game, and we believe it and that CCP wont do anything too terribly stupid with regards to money creation.


We don't have a choice not to use ISK. Smile

This notion would be valid, if CCP were operating a real central bank in the game, but CONCORD is semi-autonomous and almost inert.

The EVE server in London will take over the Internets to become self-ware, and ISK shall become World reserve currency around the year of 2019-YC121. Big smile

All planned at the BoB summer BBQ party in 2005.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#179 - 2015-06-14 01:19:17 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Given this ISK is a fiat currency (like most modern real life currencies). ISK works as a facilitator of trade because CCP has declared it to be legal tender in game, and we believe it and that CCP wont do anything too terribly stupid with regards to money creation.


We don't have a choice not to use ISK. Smile

This notion would be valid, if CCP were operating a real central bank in the game, but CONCORD is semi-autonomous and almost inert.

The EVE server in London will take over the Internets to become self-ware, and ISK shall become World reserve currency around the year of 2019-YC121. Big smile

All planned at the BoB summer BBQ party in 2005.


Good God...you mean that our only salvation is...The Mittani and his merry band of cut throats? P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#180 - 2015-06-14 01:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Mettani was in the other camp and was opposed to BoB.

The true power always stays hidden. Cool

Just kidding - 199k p/u Technetium for months.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components