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Can Missile users get some options?

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Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#41 - 2011-12-05 20:20:23 UTC
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
Well then CCP either needs to state CLEARLY that missiles are NOT a primary weapon, or just delete missiles because their useless and noone likes them. /sarcasm.


All people say is TRAIN MISSILES AND GET A DRAKE
So I spent six months training to fly a drake properly with all the engineering/electronics/cpu/powergrid upgrades only to find out that missiles aren't my race's primary weapon.
Maybe if the ferox didn't suck **** I'd of chosen differently.
I'm angry because Caldari needs to be rails or missiles and that any moron should be able to figure out whether Caldari is rails or missiles.

From my perspective guns are ez-mode.
Kite and shoot amirite?
No thats not right but I'm not going to dismiss the weapon system just because some people use easy tactics.
Missiles are fine as is, what I want are some options with which to use missiles ie maybe a fast ship with less tank.
There's also no need for insults.
So how about instead of whining because you think missiles are easy and boring you propose a change to make them fun or interesting or hard or whatever.



what in the hell are you babbling about?
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-12-05 20:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
make missiles more pvp viable

greatly increase velocity

Greatly reduce flight time

Remove explosion velocity and related skills for an accuracy skill.

Balance dps/rate of fire/etc. as needed.

Missile become more pvp viable.

then, if wanted, make caldari a pure missile race.

Since missiles will be a more viable option for all combat besides pve, then it will make sense that Caldari can become a pure missile boat race.

So now you'll have your hybrid race. Your lasers race, your missiles race, and your projectile race.
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-12-05 20:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
Xtover wrote:

what in the hell are you babbling about?

Do you even have a Caldari character?
Missiles don't have as many requirements to use, but anyone with half a brain trains all the other missile skills because its just the smart thing to do.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#44 - 2011-12-05 20:57:31 UTC
Some missile ships.

Tristan
Crow
Lachesis
Sacrilege
Typhoon
Legion
Flycatcher
Stabber Fleet Issue
Blackbird
Purifier

etc
Velicitia
XS Tech
#45 - 2011-12-05 21:00:33 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

the difference between turrets and missiles is that turrets have a line of progression. The skills you're training to better yourself in that frig are going to help your cruiser, the skills you're training in that cruiser will help to better your bc, the skills in the bc help to better your bs's, etc. etc...



right, because small hybrid turret will help with mediums...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-12-05 21:01:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
Terranid Meester wrote:
Some missile ships.

  • Tristan
    • Crow
  • Lachesis
  • Sacrilege
  • Typhoon
    • Legion
    Flycatcher
  • Stabber Fleet Issue
    • Blackbird
  • Purifier

    • etc

    These aren't Caldari though. I just want CCP to pick Rails or Missiles for Caldari.
    Xtover
    Cold Moon Destruction.
    #47 - 2011-12-05 22:22:19 UTC
    Jayrendo Karr wrote:
    Xtover wrote:

    what in the hell are you babbling about?

    Do you even have a Caldari character?
    Missiles don't have as many requirements to use, but anyone with half a brain trains all the other missile skills because its just the smart thing to do.

    Why, because my character is Amarr? Why would you question that? Yes, this character uses missiles quite often, for sacrilege, vengeance, and even a Drake. Oh and the malediction. I also trained drones because I love the curse.

    Oh, my other char is caldari rolled and specced in missiles first...all the way up to citadel cruises AND torps, but also can fly hybrids.


    So yeah, I speak from experience.
    Xtover
    Cold Moon Destruction.
    #48 - 2011-12-05 22:23:34 UTC
    Jayrendo Karr wrote:
    Terranid Meester wrote:
    Some missile ships.

  • Tristan
    • Crow
  • Lachesis
  • Sacrilege
  • Typhoon
    • Legion
    Flycatcher
  • Stabber Fleet Issue
    • Blackbird
  • Purifier

    • etc

    These aren't Caldari though. I just want CCP to pick Rails or Missiles for Caldari.

    Why does it have to be only one? That's dull.


    This whole thread is a whine because of the Naga, isn't it.
    Jayrendo Karr
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #49 - 2011-12-05 22:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
    Xtover wrote:



    This whole thread is a whine because of the Naga, isn't it.

    WELL I HAVE TO WHINE ABOUT SOMETHING
    TBH i don't care anymore, you made irrefutable points (I don't think missiles are any easier than rails still but thats another point.)
    Now, I just wonder if people will still use the rokh as much.
    They do need to revamp cyclone and ferox though.
    And destroyers.
    Misanthra
    Alternative Enterprises
    #50 - 2011-12-05 23:13:06 UTC
    Jayrendo Karr wrote:
    These aren't Caldari though. I just want CCP to pick Rails or Missiles for Caldari.



    hybrids are for pvp. Missiles are lacking at pvp. Excpet for rocket ships like hawk/hookbill and drake spam most of the missile inventory sucks ass. at BS level this becomes real clear. Cruise is a poor fleet weapson. Velocity, radiius, flight time.....all adds up to a poor weapons system. torps same thing. torpphoon makes it work because it actually has speed. Torp raven is like blasterthron. Great alpha weapons system....any ship short of caps and freighters will pull away from you and your range though. torps work for sb's....range bonus to fire and gtfo done right.

    Great pve weapons but that is because fit allows it. PVP fit will not be triple rigor/flared (you'll have resists rigs for EMP and amarr thermal/em lazers, maybe cdfe), between tank, sebo, etc, double tp fits ain't flying. Lows will be a dcu, probably a pdu....losing bcu's. All adds up to a boat that hits like ass and not the dps boat you are used to.


    Hence the hybrids and the rokh and now naga. Instant hit. Makes FC's happy, caldari boats that contribute to alpha strikes not every 30 seconds later. If you'd learn these things you'd like it. You fire, you hit as fast as that damage pop up comes up on screen. Its cool stuff.

    If you are strict pve...this not even an issue. Tengu,CNR,golem. Wtf more do you need. all 3 arguably top 5 pve boats depending on criteria chosen. Not getting naga for pve...one web/scram frig and its watch your ship die so a very good thing.

    PVP...accept the guns and move. Or get get real good at making money to spam tengu's in pvp till you are cap capable. then you can be happy running the phoenix. the least liked dread in the game. Least liked for its......wait for it.............


    missiles.
    Aglais
    Ice-Storm
    #51 - 2011-12-06 00:15:57 UTC
    Well, you do have an option. The option to continue down a road that will pigeonhole you into one role because missiles lack any kind of advantages over guns, or having to train gunnery skills and go for hybrids.

    I'd choose gunnery skills, if I were you, and I'm speaking from experience. You MIGHT be able to get by with a Drake, really, because honestly they're not bad ships.


    There seems to be alot more whining about missiles and Caldari not performing well in PvP lately.
    Onictus
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #52 - 2011-12-06 00:47:42 UTC
    Mike Whiite wrote:

    ....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu.


    Just wondering which Tengu do you fly with only Cuiser V.[/quote]

    There are no NON racial cruiser skills my friend....Caldari Cruiser V is plainly on the list below.


    Mike Whiite wrote:

    Because I need this list of minimum skills:


    Caldari Strategic Cruiser I
    Caldari Cruiser V
    Spaceship Command III
    Caldari Frigate IV
    Caldari Defensive Systems I
    Shield Operation V
    Engineering I
    Mechanic III
    Caldari Electronic Systems I
    Electronics V
    Caldari Engineering Systems I
    Engineering V
    Caldari Offensive Systems I
    Missile Launcher Operation V
    Gunnery III
    Caldari Propulsion Systems I
    Navigation V

    While you're on it you might be able to explain where you get about 500,000,000.00 ISK in three weeks to finance it.

    I don't want to be deff to your arguments but lets keep them realistic.

    Secondly I don't get this comparing Missiles with Drones, drones are used over many ships, together with a second weapon system, missile launchers are the primairy weapon on their ships (I know there are carriers though that is not realy a a thing you want to compaire this with) .



    This is getting repetitious.
    Misanthra
    Alternative Enterprises
    #53 - 2011-12-06 01:31:38 UTC
    Aglais wrote:
    There seems to be alot more whining about missiles and Caldari not performing well in PvP lately.




    just not bs quality weapons. drake is workable now since fleets work around them now (bulk of my drake days were in the age of harbs and canes so opinion is colored for them as a drake got whatever sloppy seconds lasers and projectiles left behind).


    Rocket buff fixed frigs nice. Can be very able fighters now.


    Just BS level is lacking. Hybrids takes up the slack. Which actually makes sense. Fleet bs should be hard to get. 3 races have a rough path to it. 4th one can do it too. Not like they suffer alone. A good minny pilots learns missiles too.

    Oddly enough....they don't whine nearly as much as some caldari players do about these guns. Which is quite funny....they train missiles to fill in high slots with secondaries....hybrids are primary weapons on severla ships. Rockets on af, ham on cane, split weapons on Nag. Torpphoon and hound thier only commonly used missile only boats (some oddball t2 cruisers as well...but not commonly run ships).
    Goose99
    #54 - 2011-12-06 01:47:01 UTC
    Drakes work in blobs, and despite hml, not because of it. If it has turrets slots, those drakes would've been fit differently.Lol

    The fast that you fit neuts instead of hmls in a cane's spare highs say something about how "good" they are.Roll
    Mike Whiite
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #55 - 2011-12-06 07:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
    Quote:
    Onictus wrote:
    Mike Whiite wrote:

    ....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu.


    Just wondering which Tengu do you fly with only Cuiser V.


    There are no NON racial cruiser skills my friend....Caldari Cruiser V is plainly on the list below.




    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=468266#post468266

    That first line is a quote from you :D

    Don't mind you want to correct yourself, though keep the credits where they are due.
    Mike Whiite
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #56 - 2011-12-06 08:07:07 UTC
    Gypsio III wrote:
    Mike Whiite wrote:
    Spookyjay wrote:
    So the argument here is What?

    Caldari have a problem with types of ships?
    Caldari have to few missile boats?
    Caldari what?



    The argument is for CCP to take a good look at missiles and missile ships, because newer Caldari players tend to get stuck after a while and find out they need to start an entire new skill tree to learn the other weapon platforms, where as the other weapon platforms are in the same skill tree.


    You appear to be complaining that Caldari is the most SP-intensive race. Well, one race has to be. In any case, why are you advising that CCP look at missiles and not rails? Refocusing Caldari more on to rails would reduce the non-transferable SP problem that you're complaining about; focusing on missiles would make it worse.


    When they look at missiles the outcome could be they need to refocus on hybrids, I won't claim I know enough of game mechanics to know how each change infuences the other mechanics.

    I would not be against a refocus on rails, if that is the outcome, I think that be hard when the ships people start in tends towards missiles only one t1 frigate has a hybrid bonus (Merlin) and dat has only two turret hardpoints and only the Moa has a hybrid bonus in the cruiser class, though it's by far the most expensive cruiser, most people will be flying a Caracal by then.

    And although it might apear to some of you I'm grief sicking with the fact Caldari are more sp intensive or that the Naga is a hybrid ship or something else. My main focus is to give newer players a short term focus before the larger parts that make EVE the intresting game it is come to them, bacause I do think there is a gap there where EVE looses a lot of players.
    Gypsio III
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #57 - 2011-12-06 13:02:17 UTC
    Mike Whiite wrote:
    When they look at missiles the outcome could be they need to refocus on hybrids, I won't claim I know enough of game mechanics to know how each change infuences the other mechanics.

    I would not be against a refocus on rails, if that is the outcome, I think that be hard when the ships people start in tends towards missiles only one t1 frigate has a hybrid bonus (Merlin) and dat has only two turret hardpoints and only the Moa has a hybrid bonus in the cruiser class, though it's by far the most expensive cruiser, most people will be flying a Caracal by then.

    And although it might apear to some of you I'm grief sicking with the fact Caldari are more sp intensive or that the Naga is a hybrid ship or something else. My main focus is to give newer players a short term focus before the larger parts that make EVE the intresting game it is come to them, bacause I do think there is a gap there where EVE looses a lot of players.


    Still not sure what you're complaining about I'm afraid. Caldari has a line of missile boats, and another of railboats (yeah yeah blasters too). You say that only one T1 frigate and cruiser has a hybrid bonus (Merlin, Moa), but only one T1 frigate and cruiser has a useful missile bonus - Caracal and Kestrel. The dual lines then continues into the BC and BS level with Ferox/Nagaand Rokh being the rail counterparts to Drake and Raven.

    You say that you want new players to be able to have a short-term focus, but they can do this, by focusing on one of the dual weapon lines. Or even the ECM line, if you count that as a third line of weapons. Once they have got to a good level in one weapon line, they can switch to the other, and thence on to other races. Yes, it makes the race SP-intensive, but it does not mean that effective ships do not exist at low SP levels. In fact, this is pretty much what I did - I started off focused on missiles and Caldari, then trained up Amarr to fly Khanid missile boats, then Minmatar for a bit for the Typhoon, before sorting out hybrids and the other guns.

    The alternative would be for Caldari to be purely missiles or purely hybrids, but that gives us nothing because we already have the ships that we need in each weapon line, while removing diversity from Caldari. Alternatively, we could make all Caldari ships split ships with missiles and hybrids... but that's just masochistic. P

    People have complained about the Caldari railboats on the grounds that hybrids are rubbish. They have a point. But this is an argument to fix hybrids, not to remove diversity from the race and the game by reworking those railboats into clones of missile boats that we already have, at the considerable risk of making one of the new or old ship obsolete and pointless, in a Prophecy/Harbinger style.
    m3talc0re X
    The Motley Crew of Disorder
    The Gorram Shiney Alliance
    #58 - 2011-12-07 02:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: m3talc0re X
    HELLBOUNDMAN's post is probably the least biased response I've seen in this thread... I agree with what you said, and it's all been discussed before. One of the problems though is that CCP said when they make missiles go too fast, they start doing wierd things in the game. **** don't work right basically. They need to fix that problem, then make missile work better.

    What's being ignored here is plain and simple. Turret ships have much more variety than missile boats. You don't have that many options for missiles. This same holds true if you want to use hybrids (rails mainly) on Caldari ships. They suck. The guns themselves suck and the ships that use them only complicate that matter.

    Missiles are a primary weapon system. Comparing them to drones is noobish. Caldari do have some nice missile ships, but those ships need more. That or it would be really nice to give Caldari more options for railguns. As railguns ARE Caldari. Blasters are Gallente. Every Caldari ship that has a range bonus needs it changed to rof or damage. Range bonus on weapon systems that are already long range is completely ********.

    I also fly all four races and use their weapons. Missiles suck, even in PvE. Guns vastly outperform them. Don't give me that changable damage type bullshit everyone likes to say either. That's speaking from a lack of experience. Nothing is weak to just one single damage type. Guristas are weak to kinetic. Amarr can't apply kinetic damage. But what's this, Guristas are also fairly weak to thermal. Amarr can apply lots of thermal damage. This holds true to almost every npc type and weapon system. The only one off the top of my head that this doesn't work with is Amarr vs Angels. Being weak to mostly Explosive and Kinetic, lasers can't do either.

    And just to give all of you with biased opinions something to think about, stop seeing everything from your own point of view.

    There is a lot of RP involved with most players decisions on ships/weapons. You want to fly something because it's not op, but because that's what you like. It holds true to your preferred race. So lets say, for the sake of argument, you are limited to one race and their weapons. Would you really want to be stuck with Caldari and missiles with horrible railgun boats? Now what would you like to help alleviate that problem. Sure their easy/quick to train for compared to missiles. But you're also giving up quite a bit.

    Missile biased opinions: if you haven't used guns and trained heavily for them, then you have no room to complain. For comparisons sake:
    Missiles -
    Some support skills > Cruise Launcher 5 > Cruise Launcher Spec > 4 = done (no need for other launchers)

    Guns -
    Some support skills > Small Hybrid Turret 5 > Small Railgun Spec 4 > Medium Hybrid Turret 5 > Medium Railgun Spec 4 > Large Hybrid Turret 5 > Large Railgun Spec 4 = done
    Repeat all spec skills to 4 for Blasters.

    Missiles need more damage, they need to be faster, and they need more Caldari ships based for missiles. Missiles also need tiered skill trees equal to turrets. You want T2 cruise missiles? Train the smaller ones up first to reach them. The problem with this is how missiles are separated from their groups like turrets are. So:

    ... Tell you what. If you're reading this now, I'm working on an image to elaborate this easier... I'll get it on here shortly.

    Edit: Here's the tiered trees in image form...
    http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2697/weaponskilltrees.gif
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #59 - 2011-12-07 03:45:25 UTC
    m3talc0re X wrote:
    HELLBOUNDMAN's post is probably the least biased response I've seen in this thread... I agree with what you said, and it's all been discussed before. One of the problems though is that CCP said when they make missiles go too fast, they start doing wierd things in the game. **** don't work right basically. They need to fix that problem, then make missile work better.


    I try....

    But after running with corp mates just a minute ago with my missiles, and them in turrets, I came across a huge problem.
    The 5 players I was with had turrets, but one in a dominix.
    Now, my missiles were much more effective against the targets, and I had more dps than the dominix pilot.
    Yet, the targets were being destroyed before my volleys could even hit in most cases.
    The further away the targets were, the less effective I became.

    Sure, the close range targets were all mine in most cases, but seriously.
    Missiles have 3 things going for them, they can pick the strongest damage types against their targets, they always hit, and they can hit anything within their range for the same dps reguardless of how far or close it is.

    I just feel that they should really figure out how to boost missiles to have a lot faster velocity and shorter flight time.
    Personally, I think they should scrap missiles as is and completely revamp them without having to figure out how to modify them. Might just be easier to start over. However, it would be nice if they didn't remove them from game until they had them redesigned and ready to go.(cause they're all I can and want to use)

    Quote:
    Missiles need more damage, they need to be faster, and they need more Caldari ships based for missiles. Missiles also need tiered skill trees equal to turrets. You want T2 cruise missiles? Train the smaller ones up first to reach them. The problem with this is how missiles are separated from their groups like turrets are.


    I personally don't care if they tier missiles. It would actually be more helpful to missile pilots because then they'll already have the skills if they need or want to jump into a smaller ship for something. Doesn't take much time to train missiles to lvl 4

    But how would it work?
    Would they be seperated in trees by guided and unguided missiles, or what?
    So rockets, assaults, hams, torps
    Standards, heavies, cruise

    Or would you go rockets, standards/assaults, heavies/hams, cruise, torps--(or maybe cruise/torps)
    m3talc0re X
    The Motley Crew of Disorder
    The Gorram Shiney Alliance
    #60 - 2011-12-07 04:06:04 UTC
    The image I added should help clarify what I'm meaning. But Assaults (not hams) are an oddball system. They're like, small blasters meant for cruisers. This also points out the fact that turrets get various sizes per gun size while missiles only get one size fits all. So, technically, assault launchers are firing guided missiles, so they'd be a larger standard launcher, as they are now.