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WoW refugees and the future of EVE
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Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#201 - 2015-05-03 17:26:27 UTC
Dyner wrote:
And here I thought people would just play games they enjoyed. Ugh
That's the problem with the WoW refugee. Look at it like this. Millions of these people grew up playing this one game. To them, it was the only game. All the press says so. So do all their friends. So, they acquire a mentality that they are the only true gamers, and all games must be some sort of WoW or they suck.

Blizzard starts making some mistakes, alterations, accomodations, and basically hits a wall of economic reality against an unsatiable hunger from their playerbase that they themselves created. They stumble. They "became boring." (Note: The Panda). WoW players quit by the millions, and go wandering about looking for another game. Nature of Google and the Universe, they find us, and several other notable games. They arrive as God's gift to gaming and proceed to "suggest" how to make this game (all games) perfect, which amounts to some version or another of WoW. ("Ganking" is a term invented in WoW. It literally means "Jump on and one-shot a noob." You see how they've tried to massage the meaning here, and how CCP has attempted to define "ganking" in EVE.)

WoW refugees and the future of EVE? Hey, it's a digital historic phenomena. It is being overcome by events. Because they're here EVE has no future. No, "EVE" isn't "dying". You click that launcher, you'll get the logo. It's just that the innards will only be called EVE. The actual game EVE will be a thing of the past, and only people that were there then will remember it. Everyone who came along later will have no idea what it was...only what it is....EVE....to them.

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Jenshae Chiroptera
#202 - 2015-05-03 18:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Gank, alpha, leet (even one of the first creatures), uber and kite were all used in Anarchy before WoW existed.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Minmatar Citizen 534612187
Citizen Corp.
#203 - 2015-05-03 18:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeranos
Otso Bakarti wrote:
That's the problem with the WoW refugee. Look at it like this. Millions of these people grew up playing this one game. To them, it was the only game. All the press says so. So do all their friends. So, they acquire a mentality that they are the only true gamers, and all games must be some sort of WoW or they suck.

Blizzard starts making some mistakes, alterations, accomodations, and basically hits a wall of economic reality against an unsatiable hunger from their playerbase that they themselves created. They stumble. They "became boring." (Note: The Panda). WoW players quit by the millions, and go wandering about looking for another game. Nature of Google and the Universe, they find us, and several other notable games. They arrive as God's gift to gaming and proceed to "suggest" how to make this game (all games) perfect, which amounts to some version or another of WoW. ("Ganking" is a term invented in WoW. It literally means "Jump on and one-shot a noob." You see how they've tried to massage the meaning here, and how CCP has attempted to define "ganking" in EVE.)

WoW refugees and the future of EVE? Hey, it's a digital historic phenomena. It is being overcome by events. Because they're here EVE has no future. No, "EVE" isn't "dying". You click that launcher, you'll get the logo. It's just that the innards will only be called EVE. The actual game EVE will be a thing of the past, and only people that were there then will remember it. Everyone who came along later will have no idea what it was...only what it is....EVE....to them.

I've played EVE for like a month, and even I can tell that this is prophetic.
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2015-05-03 18:25:42 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Dyner wrote:
And here I thought people would just play games they enjoyed. Ugh
That's the problem with the WoW refugee. Look at it like this. Millions of these people grew up playing this one game. To them, it was the only game. All the press says so. So do all their friends. So, they acquire a mentality that they are the only true gamers, and all games must be some sort of WoW or they suck.

Blizzard starts making some mistakes, alterations, accomodations, and basically hits a wall of economic reality against an unsatiable hunger from their playerbase that they themselves created. They stumble. They "became boring." (Note: The Panda). WoW players quit by the millions, and go wandering about looking for another game. Nature of Google and the Universe, they find us, and several other notable games. They arrive as God's gift to gaming and proceed to "suggest" how to make this game (all games) perfect, which amounts to some version or another of WoW. ("Ganking" is a term invented in WoW. It literally means "Jump on and one-shot a noob." You see how they've tried to massage the meaning here, and how CCP has attempted to define "ganking" in EVE.)

WoW refugees and the future of EVE? Hey, it's a digital historic phenomena. It is being overcome by events. Because they're here EVE has no future. No, "EVE" isn't "dying". You click that launcher, you'll get the logo. It's just that the innards will only be called EVE. The actual game EVE will be a thing of the past, and only people that were there then will remember it. Everyone who came along later will have no idea what it was...only what it is....EVE....to them.

So it's kinda like this? With us up there on the bus?! Big smile
Mario Putzo
#205 - 2015-05-03 18:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Dyner wrote:
And here I thought people would just play games they enjoyed. Ugh
That's the problem with the WoW refugee. Look at it like this. Millions of these people grew up playing this one game. To them, it was the only game. All the press says so. So do all their friends. So, they acquire a mentality that they are the only true gamers, and all games must be some sort of WoW or they suck.


That is the problem with the EVE player. Look at it like this. Hundreds of thousands of these people grew up playing this one game, To them, it was the only game. All the press says so. So do all their friends. So they acquire a mentality that they are the only true gamers, and all games must be some sort of EVE or they suck.

Funny how that works eh.

I have played lots of MMOs in my day, some longer than others, FFXI, WoW, EQ, Rift, ESO, LOTR, SWOTR, Guild Wars 1/2, FFXIV and FFXIV ARR, and of course EVE.

I have played EVE since 06, and people have ALWAYS offered suggestions to make the game easier, some of them make it in, some of them get laughed, at. But the same can be said about every single one of the games I have played. Of that list on 4 games were really any different. FFXI, EQ, WOW, EVE. Pretty much everything else on that list is a clone of Blizzards WILDLY successful MMO model (or in FF14 case a hybrid of FF11 and WoW).

You can say WoW scrubs this or that pandering to make the game easier blah blah, fact is in the time I have played EVE, long before WoW hit its peak, and Blizzard ****** it up, these people have existed. Rampant complaining about ganking resulted in changes to barges and even a crime watch overhaul, these were met of course by tears from the ganking community who claimed ganking was going to be dead...well ganking imo has never been more alive, and people can actually avoid being ganked easier too. The game did improve as whole with those changes.

So no this isn't about WoW folks coming in and trying to change the game, people have always been doing that, and the same theme exists in every other game Ive played. Some folks want it to be easier, other folks say no its fine as it is.

The only difference between the games is the mechanics that drive them, the communities are the same, because people are the same.
Dyner
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2015-05-03 19:38:29 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Dyner wrote:
And here I thought people would just play games they enjoyed. Ugh
That's the problem with the WoW refugee. Look at it like this. Millions of these people grew up playing this one game. To them, it was the only game. All the press says so. So do all their friends. So, they acquire a mentality that they are the only true gamers, and all games must be some sort of WoW or they suck.

Blizzard starts making some mistakes, alterations, accomodations, and basically hits a wall of economic reality against an unsatiable hunger from their playerbase that they themselves created. They stumble. They "became boring." (Note: The Panda). WoW players quit by the millions, and go wandering about looking for another game. Nature of Google and the Universe, they find us, and several other notable games. They arrive as God's gift to gaming and proceed to "suggest" how to make this game (all games) perfect, which amounts to some version or another of WoW. ("Ganking" is a term invented in WoW. It literally means "Jump on and one-shot a noob." You see how they've tried to massage the meaning here, and how CCP has attempted to define "ganking" in EVE.)

WoW refugees and the future of EVE? Hey, it's a digital historic phenomena. It is being overcome by events. Because they're here EVE has no future. No, "EVE" isn't "dying". You click that launcher, you'll get the logo. It's just that the innards will only be called EVE. The actual game EVE will be a thing of the past, and only people that were there then will remember it. Everyone who came along later will have no idea what it was...only what it is....EVE....to them.



Despite what Blizzard has stated, Pandaria was made to boost revenue from their largest source of income, the Asian market. Typically, the Asian Market does not have subscriptions. They have "Prepaid Time". China had a ban on TBC all the way up through Cata. Wrath was under major rework, because one of China's....'views' is you can't have skeletons in a game (guess what Wrath was all about).

So along comes Pandaria, with its heavy "Asian atmosphere".

((http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Blizzard-WoW-China-MoP-Pandaria,17423.html))

As for dumbing down the skill trees, that was done to hasten development. Much easier to finish if you only have 9 new talents per class.

---

As for EVE. There's a difference between dumbing down and removing unnecessary work. Who here remembers spending almost the first month training the "Learning Skills" to reduce the overall time it takes to actually PLAY THE GAME.

((I still think CCP should add Skill Point drops in the game. Right now there's no reason for me to login and play.))

Or looking up Agent Guides on Google because there was no way to find them in game?

People shot down Walking In Station with out even thinking of what it could mean...

Gun fights in stations, Bar fights, Customizable internal Security Status for PoS via ISK-based purchases (Weapon Scanners, NPC Guards, Cameras, etc). A Firefly game done right....

But no, people jumped to conclusions and we're stuck with the same game that has had very little changes to the gameplay. --WTF, I still can't steer my ship with my KB&M or Joystick; I have to click all over the damn place to "steer". I can in Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen!


...there's a game out there that also listened to the 'hardcore' players and didn't want to streamline things for better adoption. It's called Darkfall: Unholy Wars (aka Darkfall 2; after the first one up and died due to a low playerbase).

So tell me, do you want to have to have the game drop you within jump distance of the gate. Instead of making bookmarks that do it. Or do you want to receive and email informing you the server is being shutdown because it's no longer financially viable to keep it running. Because the game remained "hardcore" and had a huge 'Barrier to Entry'?
Mario Putzo
#207 - 2015-05-03 20:32:57 UTC
I agree with most of this, but people resist change, most of all people in EVE because change can have huge rippling effects. Which is why CCP has to be cautious about what they develop. That being said its funny you brought up WiS, folks got pissed off when CCP didn't make changes to EVE gameplay, now other folks get pissed off that CCP is making changes to the gameplay and they still get pissed off.

People are dumb.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#208 - 2015-05-04 07:32:16 UTC
People didn't "shoot down WiS without thinking what it means", they shot down WiS after seeing that it meant 2.5 years of development that produced nothing more than being able to sit in a seedy motel room until your video card caught fire.

In comparison, look at how the game has updated in the last 30 months: 2.5 years ago, CCP released Retribution. That's what WiS cost EVE. We could have been where we are at now with respect to hundreds of UI improvements, code refactoring, feature rewrites, ship balancing, new features, et cetera back in Dec 2012.

I had as high hopes for the potential of avatar gameplay as anyone, but the plain fact is that that CCP had no idea what to do with the idea, the project was appallingly mismanaged and it did huge damage to both CCP and the confidence of the playerbase in the game and the developers.

The dev teams that produced Incarna have disbanded, most of the devs that worked on the engine have left CCP, the few that remain are deeply involved in other projects, and 2 successive EVE Executive Producers have stated in the plainest possible language that they have no plans whatsoever to restart the avatar project.

Restarting Inarna would esentially require restarting the project from scratch, and CCP are very clear on the opportunity cost for making the attempt, even if you aren't:

Quote:
We could have been where we are at now with respect to hundreds of UI improvements, code refactoring, feature rewrites, ship balancing, new features, et cetera back in Dec 2012.


CCP Seagull has repeatedly and recently made the plan for EVE over the next few years very clear, and it doesn't include any significant development of avatar gameplay.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ersteen Hofs
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2015-05-04 10:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersteen Hofs
What is it with EVE players always talking about WoW on these forums?

2.5 years ago I was fed up with WoW references on these forums and for the first time installed that game.

Poof, 2.5 years of exciting EVE skill training gone. And you know what? WoW is still 100s of times better than EVE (even though right now it's too boring to play). Thank you for pointing me to that jewel! Subs count is still many million btw, while EVE's is still under even one of those.

So keep telling yourselves you're elitist, some people don't care about that they just need an hour of relaxation instead of hour of killing nerve cells over lost virtual pixels and numbers, or an hour of sadistic pleasures over incurring such over other players.

So I've came back and prolonged with my many billions just to see what's changed and I still can't tell what am I supposed to do in this game besides earning 900 mil per account each month... Probably it's just not made for me, or for most other people. EVE is just too niche. But why is this niche still tries to compare EVE with WoW? It's like comparing a bulldozer and a mercedes... Pretty pointless.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#210 - 2015-05-04 10:26:42 UTC
Ersteen Hofs wrote:
What is it with EVE players always talking about WoW on these forums?

What percentage of eve players come here and talk about WOW?

Stereotypes are often very limited in application. Especially one based on that statement.
Dyner
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2015-05-04 13:31:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
-snip-


Ya, WiS should have been a 'pet project' done by a small team like Team Best Friends Forever.

And who knows, maybe we'll see it come back. I highly doubt they made a completely new code foundation for DUST, PC version of DUST (I don't recall it's name), and EVE: Valkyrie. So it wouldn't be a stretch to transfer those assets over.

Those three sub-games of the EVE Universe incorporate exactly what I'd like to see in EVE Online.

---

Ersteen Hofs wrote:

-snipe-



Right now the biggest issue I think EVE suffers from is it garners the same feeling as an FPS. You can jump in and play a few hours. Leave, and the come back when ever you feel like. And the items just feel like Unlocks because of the ridiculous time needed to train them (lol 18 days for a single skill that's required to unlock another skill that takes over 30 days to rank up).

...like for me, I don't actually have to login for another 35 days, when my skill queue will be empty. And if I want to earn some ISK, I'll just go buy a PLEX because my time is worth more (to me) than $20 (plus I usually get them during the sales Cool ).

Right now there is zero active character progression (ie XP gains). -- I really do hate side progression in Characters.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#212 - 2015-05-04 15:13:22 UTC
Dyner wrote:


Right now there is zero active character progression (ie XP gains).


And thank Bob for that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Solecist Project
#213 - 2015-05-04 15:17:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dyner wrote:


Right now there is zero active character progression (ie XP gains).


And thank Bob for that.

Would you like your afterburner go 100msec faster?
Have fun orbitting that rock afk for a few hours!

Sooo engaging! :O

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#214 - 2015-05-04 15:20:40 UTC
Dyner wrote:
Right now there is zero active character progression (ie XP gains)
That right there is half of the appeal.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#215 - 2015-05-04 15:28:24 UTC
What you posted:

Malcanis wrote:
People didn't "shoot down WiS without thinking what it means", they shot down WiS after seeing that it meant 2.5 years of development that produced nothing more than being able to sit in a seedy motel room until your video card caught fire.

In comparison, look at how the game has updated in the last 30 months: 2.5 years ago, CCP released Retribution. That's what WiS cost EVE. We could have been where we are at now with respect to hundreds of UI improvements, code refactoring, feature rewrites, ship balancing, new features, et cetera back in Dec 2012.

I had as high hopes for the potential of avatar gameplay as anyone, but the plain fact is that that CCP had no idea what to do with the idea, the project was appallingly mismanaged and it did huge damage to both CCP and the confidence of the playerbase in the game and the developers.

The dev teams that produced Incarna have disbanded, most of the devs that worked on the engine have left CCP, the few that remain are deeply involved in other projects, and 2 successive EVE Executive Producers have stated in the plainest possible language that they have no plans whatsoever to restart the avatar project.

Restarting Inarna would esentially require restarting the project from scratch, and CCP are very clear on the opportunity cost for making the attempt, even if you aren't:

Quote:
We could have been where we are at now with respect to hundreds of UI improvements, code refactoring, feature rewrites, ship balancing, new features, et cetera back in Dec 2012.


CCP Seagull has repeatedly and recently made the plan for EVE over the next few years very clear, and it doesn't include any significant development of avatar gameplay.


What they heard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

Twisted
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#216 - 2015-05-04 15:35:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
What you posted:

Malcanis wrote:
People didn't "shoot down WiS without thinking what it means", they shot down WiS after seeing that it meant 2.5 years of development that produced nothing more than being able to sit in a seedy motel room until your video card caught fire.

In comparison, look at how the game has updated in the last 30 months: 2.5 years ago, CCP released Retribution. That's what WiS cost EVE. We could have been where we are at now with respect to hundreds of UI improvements, code refactoring, feature rewrites, ship balancing, new features, et cetera back in Dec 2012.

I had as high hopes for the potential of avatar gameplay as anyone, but the plain fact is that that CCP had no idea what to do with the idea, the project was appallingly mismanaged and it did huge damage to both CCP and the confidence of the playerbase in the game and the developers.

The dev teams that produced Incarna have disbanded, most of the devs that worked on the engine have left CCP, the few that remain are deeply involved in other projects, and 2 successive EVE Executive Producers have stated in the plainest possible language that they have no plans whatsoever to restart the avatar project.

Restarting Inarna would esentially require restarting the project from scratch, and CCP are very clear on the opportunity cost for making the attempt, even if you aren't:

Quote:
We could have been where we are at now with respect to hundreds of UI improvements, code refactoring, feature rewrites, ship balancing, new features, et cetera back in Dec 2012.


CCP Seagull has repeatedly and recently made the plan for EVE over the next few years very clear, and it doesn't include any significant development of avatar gameplay.


What they heard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

Twisted



I know Cry

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#217 - 2015-05-04 15:36:57 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dyner wrote:
Right now there is zero active character progression (ie XP gains)
That right there is half of the appeal.


Half? 2/3rds I'd say.

That's a big huge point. I think there are quite a few of us who like EVE exactly because it doesn't work like a 'standard' mmo. I played wow for a few months and who whole "light show on level up" thing just didn't do anything for me at all. I was like "yay I can turn into a bear, big freakin whoop" lol.

EVE isn't about some canned experience, it's about your own choices and CCP has been brilliant in that regard by not adding 'distractions' like 'leveling'. Since EVE doesn't things the exact opposite way of most MMOs I don't know why so many MMO types cling to it (and cry for changing it). There are plenty of mmos (some space themed like STO and SWTOR) that do things the normal way, why play EVE if that's what they like?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#218 - 2015-05-04 15:37:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
What they heard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

Twisted
Entirely too generous tbh, it's more like this.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#219 - 2015-05-04 15:41:17 UTC
Dyner wrote:
. Leave, and the come back when ever you feel like.


Which is the entire point. MMOs use psychological 'tricks' to addict players, by making them act like rats in a maze. EVE treats us like adults that actually have other things to do.

Quote:

Right now there is zero active character progression (ie XP gains). -- I really do hate side progression in Characters.


And yet here you are subscribed to EVE Online when there are literally thousands of other games to choose from.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#220 - 2015-05-04 16:11:50 UTC
Dyner wrote:
As for dumbing down the skill trees, that was done to hasten development. Much easier to finish if you only have 9 new talents per class.

---

As for EVE. There's a difference between dumbing down and removing unnecessary work. Who here remembers spending almost the first month training the "Learning Skills" to reduce the overall time it takes to actually PLAY THE GAME.

((I still think CCP should add Skill Point drops in the game. Right now there's no reason for me to login and play.))

But you don't seem to get EVE.Blink There is no "finish".Roll You are importing a concept of skill progression that was never in this game and hopefully for those of us that love this game never will be. And because of that your "skill point drops" make no sense. You get a skill book and put it into the list of things that will train over time.

As for no point to log in, again you don't get EVE. Many people log in as noobs. Train propulsion jamming. And soon are jumping into a battle in a poorly fit frig, getting a point on some juicy target, getting blown up, but having the rest of their gang in return blowing up that juicy target.

Dyner wrote:
...there's a game out there that also listened to the 'hardcore' players and didn't want to streamline things for better adoption. It's called Darkfall: Unholy Wars (aka Darkfall 2; after the first one up and died due to a low playerbase).

So tell me, do you want to have to have the game drop you within jump distance of the gate. Instead of making bookmarks that do it. Or do you want to receive and email informing you the server is being shutdown because it's no longer financially viable to keep it running. Because the game remained "hardcore" and had a huge 'Barrier to Entry'?
I played Darkfall. I loved the visuals. I hated the repetitive skill grind. Bloodwalling stupidity etc. The eve skill system just makes so much more sense than other games. Because really, when you get right down to it, it's not what skills your character has. It's what you do with the skills your character has. That is EVE.

Dyner wrote:
Right now the biggest issue I think EVE suffers from is it garners the same feeling as an FPS. You can jump in and play a few hours. Leave, and the come back when ever you feel like. And the items just feel like Unlocks because of the ridiculous time needed to train them (lol 18 days for a single skill that's required to unlock another skill that takes over 30 days to rank up).

...like for me, I don't actually have to login for another 35 days, when my skill queue will be empty. And if I want to earn some ISK, I'll just go buy a PLEX because my time is worth more (to me) than $20 (plus I usually get them during the sales Cool ).

Right now there is zero active character progression (ie XP gains). -- I really do hate side progression in Characters.

unlocks? You are talking about training a ship skill to 5 I guess ? Are you really so impatient that you cant find fun things to do with a ship skill at 4 ? Your time is worth more? This is a game. The playing is what is or should be fun. Again, there is no finishing. No you don't grind to level 80 to have a max skilled character that then does stuff with a few other level 80 characters. That is not EVE. If you just don't find the actual playing of the game fun then so long.What?

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.