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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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Author
2Sonas1Cup
#41 - 2015-04-27 11:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: 2Sonas1Cup
Dracvlad wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.

Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.

Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.

Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.

Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.

Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?


Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.


I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!


you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved.


So what there are still ways to attack them...


Please enlighten us with your ways.

Or more like, fail ways.


When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics.
But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well.

Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something.
But thats not really the point of the thread anyway, and even if it was its something that doesnt happen and people dont bother with.

You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities.
Is that really the eve you want to play?
Solecist Project
#42 - 2015-04-27 11:22:19 UTC
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.

Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.

Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.

Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.

Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.

Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?


Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.


I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!


you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved.


So what there are still ways to attack them...


Please enlighten us with your ways.

Or more like, fail ways.


When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics.
But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well.

Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something.

You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities.
Is that really the eve you want to play?

CFP even removed GCC chaining,
which was perfectly fine before but the scum of the cluster whined until they removed it.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#43 - 2015-04-27 11:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.

Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.

Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.

Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.

Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.

Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?


Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.


I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!


you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved.


So what there are still ways to attack them...


Please enlighten us with your ways.

Or more like, fail ways.


When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics.
But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well.

Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something.

You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities.
Is that really the eve you want to play?


Look what you just said there, it requires effort, planning, teamwork and risk. The Goons do kill Incursion runners at times, just organise your group of gankers and get too it. There is a lot of stuff in Eve that I cannot do because I am unable to gather / organise enough people, I don't whine about it, I just get on and have fun, perhaps that is what you should do rather than whine about other peoples game play because you are unable to organise yourself to make a dent in them.

I don't care if null players have hisec incursion running alts, big deal, if you have ever been in a 0.0 alliance you will soon realise that having different income streams is really important, good luck to them, means they are more able to fight in 0.0.

You have an objective, go kill an incursion runner in a very shiny ship its doable.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#44 - 2015-04-27 11:36:16 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
You are still dodging my questions from the first page, griefer.
I do not acknowledge your standing to interrogate anyone. And, I see you're happily and single-handedly championing this cause. I'll say this. If ego is the first cause, you win. Unfortunately, your bluster doesn't serve.

Regardless of what this person says, there is still no there there. This is beginning to smack of conspiracy, however. Shocked

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#45 - 2015-04-27 11:39:31 UTC
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.

Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.

Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.

Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.

Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.

Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?


Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.


While I recognize the imbalance Incursions contribute to, I don't think it's realistic for ccp to get rid of them. Hell, incursions are a cool concept, just badly implemented. I've been taking a semi-break from null due to real life obligations and running incursions with TVP for 2 weeks.

Say that their is little incentive to do anything else is actually wrong, I sold my incursion fit (kept the Mach though) because incursions are so eye bleedingly boring and monotonous I simply can't run another site, even when you contribute by having a roll (I have played sniper anchor and MTAC guy), it's the SAME THING over and over and over again. null anoms are the same, but atleast I can experiment with different ships, come and go when I want and the guys trying to kill you make for interesting times. You get almost none of that in high sec incursions, the only fun to be had is contests and those are rare.

The isk is great, at time we've been on pace to make more than 160 mil per hour (and TVP is great with it's automated waitlist meaning that if you have alts like me, you can do something else in the time it takes you to get invited, they even have an out of game browser alarm that blares at you when you get invited, best thing I've ever seen)

I'm on the record saying that high sec incursions are wrong and bad and they are. I find it irksome that the SAME Machariel that can be used by me to help push a 100+ mil per hour pace farming in an incursion fleet (where only the FC is doing any actual thinking/playing) can make AT BEST 750-75 mil per hour farming anomalies in a null sec system that someone had to fight over, conquer and than pay to upgrade including moving a huge ass IHUB.

And all of that is still true, I simply don't think people should be making that much combat pve isk in high sec, it cheapens ALL pve outside of high sec with the exception of high end wormholes (which are sill balanced because once those WH anoms are gone, they are gone, incursion sites keep respawning till the incursion is gone)

But what is also true is that if you re-nerf incursions (they got nerfed in the past), people just won't do them and it's wasted content/dev time. It's a hell of a wall CCP painted themselves into, damned if you do, damnded if you don't. Personally I'd leave incursions alone with the possible exception of lowering the isk pay out and upping the LP pay out.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-04-27 11:44:24 UTC
There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Big smile

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Memphis Baas
#47 - 2015-04-27 11:49:32 UTC
It's almost impossible to balance risk vs. reward...

... when the reward is coded into loot tables and %chance of drops, and thus somewhat fixed
... and the risk is entirely dependent on a whole bunch of PVP'ers piling into one system and deciding to gank evereyone there

My suggestion for combining these two very different systems would be to make ONLY the ships that have the loot vulnerable to attack by PVP with no CONCORD interference, and with everyone else invulnerable even to suicide ganks. That way the risk of PVP is coded in the loot table, so to speak.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#48 - 2015-04-27 11:50:20 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?

Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too,
if they WANT to.

This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do.

No, there is a very real argument that a risk-free ISK fountain like Incurions is bad for the game. Only CCP has all the numbers, but if players are choosing to make their ISK in complete safety in highsec instead of in more dangerous spaces, you are asphyxiating PvP opportunities and conflict elsewhere in the game.

Again I don't have access to the numbers, but isn't it true that practically everyone you talk to has an "Incurion alt" for making ISK even if they consider themselves a wormholer or a nullsec player? If so, that is terrible for the game in the long run as there will be less and less targets outside of highsec and all that will be left is meaningless roams where players look for similar players for consensual fights to burn off their Incursion income. If players aren't actually fighting over resources, these inconsequential and random fights will get old quick and the game will stagnate. Sound familiar?

CCP is going to have to turn the ship around soon and part of that will be a major effort to draw players back into more dangerous places like null/low/WH space to fight over income sources, and perhaps this new Jove space in the future. Perhaps they can do it with new and engaging game mechanics and rewards, but I fully expect them to have to dial back Incursion income at least a little to motivate players to leave highsec again.

There is a place for PvE that is cooperative and PvP-free in Eve. It is just not as the most lucrative way to make ISK in the game.



High Sec Incursions are an aberration, way more than thukker/SOE agents in high sec or creating "mission farms" (ie going to a place with a lot of lvl 4 mission agents, declinining mssions till you have the best, and just running them without completing them for 7 days, turning those missions into a high sec version of null sec anoms) ever could be.

Incursions themselves don't spew a lot of raw isk into the economy because overall not many people do them (since they aren't afkable). Null anoms spew way more overall isk because people do afk them with throwaway ships, yea anom farming pays way less but way more people do it.

The argument that incursions are unbalanced actually isn't an economic one, it's just the fact that they are wrong on an individual level. Last night the FC of my incursion fleet said "we are on pace to crack 170 mil per our guys, keep it up). I was happy to watch my wallet grow, but the realization that as a null sec player the ONLY way to get to and sustain that kind of isk making would take me using TWO ships and TWO characters as opposed to the one I was controlling in an incursion fleet simply pressing F1 while keeping at range on the AAA anchor.

Anyone that can't see that the above is wrong is simply blind. That said, I still don't see what CCP can do to make it better without ruining high sec incursions.
Arla Sarain
#49 - 2015-04-27 11:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
You are still dodging my questions from the first page, griefer.
I do not acknowledge your standing to interrogate anyone. And, I see you're happily and single-handedly championing this cause. I'll say this. If ego is the first cause, you win. Unfortunately, your bluster doesn't serve.

Regardless of what this person says, there is still no there there. This is beginning to smack of conspiracy, however. Shocked


Your sole argument is that its ingame and hence should be left alone? Odd that prominent people from all sections of the game make their ISK of of highsec incursions. Defeats the purpose of actually doing anything BUT highsec incursions.

But it's just butthurt people who can't make themselves do as everyone else does and trying to ruin the fun, isn't it?

Challenging a POV is great, it makes conclusions. But you aren't doing that.


If denial made ISK, you'd be rich just by flashing your word wizardry on the forums.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-04-27 11:52:47 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
You are still dodging my questions from the first page, griefer.
I do not acknowledge your standing to interrogate anyone. And, I see you're happily and single-handedly championing this cause. I'll say this. If ego is the first cause, you win. Unfortunately, your bluster doesn't serve.

Regardless of what this person says, there is still no there there. This is beginning to smack of conspiracy, however. Shocked



Your sole argument is that its ingame and hence should be left alone? Odd that prominent people from all sections of the game make their ISK of of highsec incursions. Defeats the purpose of actually doing anything BUT highsec incursions.

But it's just butthurt people who can't make themselves do as everyone else does and trying to ruin the fun, isn't it?

Challenging a POV is great, it makes conclusions. But you aren't doing that.

If denial made ISK, you'd be rich just by flashing your word wizardry on the forums.
I'm not making an argument, or didn't you notice? I said this is not an issue, and it's being invented by people who have agendas. This just comes out of the blue...hey, let's dump a part of the game done in high sec. The pile of "dump a part of the game done in high sec" is so high on this forum, I'm amazed there's any bandwidth left for Sol's histrionics.

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Arla Sarain
#51 - 2015-04-27 11:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Otso Bakarti wrote:
I said this is not an issue, and it's being invented by people who have agendas. This just comes out of the blue...

Yes its an issue.
Yes people have agendas
And its not out of the blue.

People want value from other walks of the game, proportional to the effort and risk that is demanded by them.

Pretty valid agenda, as that's what the game is partially advertised/implied for.

Highsec incursions are an insult.

Increasing payout from other activities - you can't keep doing that.
2Sonas1Cup
#52 - 2015-04-27 11:56:22 UTC
Just to put it in perspective of how game breaking incursions are:

- You only need a couple hours a WEEK running incursions to plex all your 3 or 4 accounts AND still have isks enough to blow on your random pvp.

Now theres 2 or 3 main groups of fleets going 24/7 with 40 pilots each. (not even counting on other groups)
If you are on those fleets only a couple of hours a week, how many people like you do you think that run on those fleets in a single week?

THOUSANDS.

Now thousands of players that safely make isks that otherwise would have to grind in a different and "healthier" way.

On top of that, many of these players dont even log for the rest of the month because they have no incentive to do so.
Or they log to... run a few incursions sites, yet again.

Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-04-27 11:59:08 UTC
Yes, I see the mob rushing to post...all three of you...

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#54 - 2015-04-27 11:59:55 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Big smile


Lol, but no conspiracy. It does cheapen "outside of high sec" PVE. And the real 'conspiracy thinking' is the idea that anyone wants to 'push' people out of high sec. Frankly, no one gives a damn about where you play, and there are plenty enough targets for PVP players outside high sec so that "you just want to blow me up" idea is stupid.

The simple fact is this: it's wrong to be able to make the kind of income you can from simply joining an incursion fleet, following an anchor and pressing F1 (the only people that "work" are the FC and the logi guys) while being protected by CONCORD, when PVE activities outside of high sec (with a few exceptions) are not only NOT protected by CONCORD, but also pay less. And I know, I do all types of PVE including high sec incursions.

High sec incursions aren't the most unbalanced PVE activites in the game, that award goes to faction warfare missions when you can farm up crazy wealth with a cheap stealth bomber. But high sec incursions are unbalanced, period, no matter the "wahhh don't mess with my unbalanced income" crying by some incursion runners.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-04-27 12:02:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Big smile


Lol, but no conspiracy. It does cheapen "outside of high sec" PVE. And the real 'conspiracy thinking' is the idea that anyone wants to 'push' people out of high sec. Frankly, no one gives a damn about where you play, and there are plenty enough targets for PVP players outside high sec so that "you just want to blow me up" idea is stupid.

The simple fact is this: it's wrong to be able to make the kind of income you can from simply joining an incursion fleet, following an anchor and pressing F1 (the only people that "work" are the FC and the logi guys) while being protected by CONCORD, when PVE activities outside of high sec (with a few exceptions) are not only NOT protected by CONCORD, but also pay less. And I know, I do all types of PVE including high sec incursions.

High sec incursions aren't the most unbalanced PVE activites in the game, that award goes to faction warfare missions when you can farm up crazy wealth with a cheap stealth bomber. But high sec incursions are unbalanced, period, no matter the "wahhh don't mess with my unbalanced income" crying by some incursion runners.

You are entitled to your opinion(s).

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Lan Wang
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-04-27 12:03:42 UTC
i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#57 - 2015-04-27 12:09:12 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
I'm not making an argument, or didn't you notice? I said this is not an issue, and it's being invented by people who have agendas. This just comes out of the blue...hey, let's dump a part of the game done in high sec. The pile of "dump a part of the game done in high sec" is so high on this forum, I'm amazed there's any bandwidth left for Sol's histrionics.


This is simply a defensive reaction by the only person who has an actual agenda (ie "don't mess with my activity"). The people who defend high sec incursions are the ones with the agenda. I'm not defending high sec incursions when I say CCP should probably leave them alone, I'm simply being realistic, btw.

But the high sec version of incursions ARE unbalanced. They would be less so if incursion rats spawned on gates and strangled high sec travel and commerce like they do in low and null or if CONCORD was deactivated in incursion constellations. Low and null incursions are balanced, because no CONCORD.

In other words, while high sec incursions aren't the end of the world, as they are now they are wrong for the game. This game has a well defined "risk/reward" scheme and high sec incursions violate that principal. The only risk in a high sec incursion is a sleepy logi pilot or two when the "Outunis" spawns.
Brutus Utama
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#58 - 2015-04-27 12:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Brutus Utama
Love how the OP is moaning about carebears... where do all your ships come from? and the mods? from the carebears who mine and build them.... eve without carebears you would all be stuck for ships and stuff.....

back on topic never done incursion its never bothered me i have no opinion on them....

also i think the incursion rats do actually move about system.... i seen them in belts before...

Thanks
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#59 - 2015-04-27 12:12:49 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Big smile


Lol, but no conspiracy. It does cheapen "outside of high sec" PVE. And the real 'conspiracy thinking' is the idea that anyone wants to 'push' people out of high sec. Frankly, no one gives a damn about where you play, and there are plenty enough targets for PVP players outside high sec so that "you just want to blow me up" idea is stupid.

The simple fact is this: it's wrong to be able to make the kind of income you can from simply joining an incursion fleet, following an anchor and pressing F1 (the only people that "work" are the FC and the logi guys) while being protected by CONCORD, when PVE activities outside of high sec (with a few exceptions) are not only NOT protected by CONCORD, but also pay less. And I know, I do all types of PVE including high sec incursions.

High sec incursions aren't the most unbalanced PVE activites in the game, that award goes to faction warfare missions when you can farm up crazy wealth with a cheap stealth bomber. But high sec incursions are unbalanced, period, no matter the "wahhh don't mess with my unbalanced income" crying by some incursion runners.

You are entitled to your opinion(s).



Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. What you aren't entitled to is your own facts. All I'm posting are facts about incursions vs other types of PVE in other places.

What you are doing is denying the truth because of a personal agenda (no different than what real life politicians do), and that makes you wrong. If you don't mind being wrong, then you will stick to your line of thinking. You will have lots of company on this forum lol.
Lan Wang
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2015-04-27 12:14:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
But the high sec version of incursions ARE unbalanced. They would be less so if incursion rats spawned on gates and strangled high sec travel and commerce like they do in low and null or if CONCORD was deactivated in incursion constellations. Low and null incursions are balanced, because no CONCORD.


i actually only found out about incursion rats not spawning on gates in high yesterday, after being instapopped in a blingy ishtar on a null incursion gate i thought no rats on gates in high was a bit meh.



Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*