Wormholes

So I've had some one ask for me to look in to how we can try to increase pvp in the higher class wormholes and who was also worried that I was spending to much time sorting pve out for w space.

Firstly I'm still of the opinion that better pve and increasing getting people in to space is the way to increase pvp. The lower class wormholes have all done better since the pve changes along with dual statics of C4.

The biggest issue I see with pvp in C5 and C6 is that its a player driven issue, not mechanics. Atleast to me, the biggest issue is all the grouping up, which then leads to a vicious circle. Oh they teamed up, we wont fight them, their bound to have friends this time again. etc etc

I've spoke to a couple people who are much better at player behaviour and theyall agree this is incrediby hard to change, if its even possible at all.

What I'd like is suggestions on how we could maybe increase pvp in the higher class wormholes.

Hidden fremen has already asked some people in his corp and he's sent me a list of some ideas, some admittingly controversial.

I'll list them below and keep this updated as more people suggest ideas.

Ideals from Hidden Fremen and Lazerhawks

Rewarding PvP active corps (harder to evict). Some Incursion-esque home system bonus.
Mass:spawn range when jumping wormholes kills small corp PvP tactics. True. Increases non-consensual PvP, but decreases consensual.
Getting podded into k-space and not in your WH home makes people more risk-averse. Controversial.
Give wormholes stargate treatment in that they appear on overview; no scanning needed. VERY controversial.
Reducing the number of wormholes. This would obviously increase encounters between players.

part of the problem is that people clump hard because they

a) just want to win

or

b) don't want to get evicted

Giving home system bonus would only increase the fortress mentality.

It was Hidden Fremen who came to me (well he spoke to Sugar who passed it on to me) saying it needed looking at, so I asked for suggestions.

the null entities are already in wh's, at fanfest I herd nothing other than oh you live in wh's
"I love my wh me and a friend pulled out xxx billion isk in 6 months" I bought my super/titans with it.

null players are perfectly happy to repeatedly and relentlessly shoot red crosses until there are no more left or right up till the point some one disturbs them.

Its done on alts, and its primarily an activity to fund them in other parts of the game, some people say "But at least there's some one there!" Well great, but they dont really live there the other 22 hours or so of the day. content wise ganking caps in a site which has no sub cap support is really pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel.

If one looks at qex they can see it can really be done with as little as 10 chars, quite how you need a coalition and fleet of 10+ logi & 60+ t3's to do the same job I really dont know.

Changing player behaviour is a hard one, probably the hardest aspect of the task your setting out to do.

In some eyes some groups arn't considered pvp groups because they allegedly dont kill enough, Yet if there's no targets in there there statics or chains and rolling provides nothing but a barren logged off landscape, whose fault is that?

Its become necessary to roam null now to provide additional content or access to other people doing things that I can poke with a stick, No single entity can rely on people being in there static or chain any more to gaurenty enough stuff is happening to keep there corp activity ticking over.

Perhaps taking a few null exits from the c5's and giving them to the c6's might be in Order?

I hate the Idea of wh generators, but what about something like you dump lots of blue books in a thing and it spawns a new random c6/c5 null wh, The more you dump in there the longer it lasts, "48 hour maximum time" and if its a sucky null, SUX2BEU

If by encourage you mean to give an isk encentive for completing a site, then truly this will only work to encourage c5/c6 space to further increase corp/alliance size. It's the larger corps that are having difficulty finding good fights in wh space. Incentivising static farming and allowing wh corps to support even larger numbers will have the opposite effect than Hidden Freemen is looking for.

Instead of 5 large wh entities that are too big for me to effectively engage, there will be be 5 way way large wh entities that are too big for me to effectively engage.

WH mass constraints are what limits what we can do and what we can't do. You can't have an epic fight in wh space w/out batphoning, rage rolling and seeding. That's because you can only get so much through a wh before it collapses. Encouraging static farming isn't going to change that. Rolling back the mass/range thing will probably have a positive effect as it will allow folks to once again put a triage carrier on or through a wh against larger numbers. Though since the higgs rigs, the only cap I've seen rolling a wh has been Hidden Freemen himself in his nano moros (he had that thing gong over 320 km/sec - ok not that fast, but it was deffo faster than a moros should be allowed to go).

I don't think 'more is better' is going to solve any pvp issues in wh space. The only more is better option is maybe creating c7 wh and putting some liberal mass limits on c7 to c7 connections so the guys that like to be in big wh corps and like be fights in wh space can have a place to go. I think then we would quickly sort out the large wh corps and see which ones really want to fight big and which ones just want to be 'to big to fail' Honestly, I'd love to follow that sort of wh drama. (no supers in c7 though - that would be obviously broken)

Remove capital escalation farming from home sites

Get some other crap in return to make farming you static c5/c6 profitable

I dislike the idea's you got so far

i never realized this was a problem. i always did what the chain allowed. if its dead, lets jew it up, if its active lets try and fight stuff. if its too active maybe roll that part away.

the best pvp part about high class wormholes to be is that i get a ton of nulls and i just use those to pvp in. i really dislike the blobs i gotta fight but whatever makes me better anyways.

in wormholes i usually am ganking someone or arranging a fight with another corp. telling them what i got, and they telling me what they got. idk i love this. its refreshing.

like you said, this is a total player behavior problem and i wouldnt try to fix it. wahh wahhhh wormholes are so dead there is no high class pvp wahhh wahhh. meanwhile that person maybe scans 10 wormholes a week. just go scan and find the action. i hate the whining omfg....

PvP active corps (harder to evict). Some Incursion-esque home system bonus.
No! you cant control wormholes! that's the point! they are unpredictable and dangerous remember? i like the idea that my home system is trying to kill me and forcing me to adapt my fittings so i dont die. i get free links if i pvp? its just guna be exploited and farmed up with alts or something. wrong wrong wrong wrong.

side note: during the very vague structure presentation that was very vague and vagueness. something was said about a structure that controls wormhole spawn rates? NO! you cant do that! wormholes are unpredictable and random, and sleepers are scary and spooky and all that. why can players control their ratting safety by reducing the number and crazed wormholers that come out of it?!

spawn range when jumping wormholes kills small corp PvP tactics. True. Increases non-consensual PvP, but decreases consensual.
no comment. everything has already been said about this. i dont care either way. sure would be nice to just jump the carrier back.

podded into k-space and not in your WH home makes people more risk-averse. Controversial.
a huge part of sieging tactics revolves around this but outside out that getting podded isnt the worst thing. if ur scanning this isnt an issue. but that is a big quality of life improvement. i dont hate it.

wormholes stargate treatment in that they appear on overview; no scanning needed. VERY controversial.
no.

the number of wormholes. This would obviously increase encounters between players.
back in the wormhole changes ccp said that increasing connections increases content.. is that not true anymore? i dont mind scanning at all. i like having lots of connections, gives me a lot of options. maybe c3s today, maybe marauder sites in the static, maybe pvp our neighbors, maybe roaming nullsec. idk.

someone once told me that in order to get pvp sometimes u gotta force it. put a tower down in their system, shoot their structures, they CTA u go fight em, take ur tower down and gf m80s. and like i said before if you find a group u know well you can pvp them and set up a fight for the fun of you both.

really i dont see this pvp problem. maybe im just slow. but i... i really dont see it. lazy ppl will be lazy and whine and then burnout and then quit.

If you are looking for concepts here are a few...

It was suggested that the wormhole star gate treatment.. I would say no.. Except for frigate sized holes. Those might as well be shown on the sig screen as we hate probing them, and hate more using them. Least you could readily transit frigate holes without the need for a probe launcher theoretically. It's a odd idea that affects all space with visible frig holes.

We need a way to swap clones in wspace. If I can swap my slave or virtu set clone for something else, that'd be great.

The shattered need more uses. I'm at the point that maybe the shattered large holes should provide more statics into c5 and c6 space. I still rarely see them. They should be the primary farming targets for c5 and c6 space. The shattered wormholes need to matter more. I am almost tempted to say that a new material should be added to t3's which are only obtainable in shattered wormholes. Yes it could potentially redo t3 production, make them more rare as they require a material that comes out of one of 100 systems. The frig holes matter more for smaller industrialists. They need to matter more, and there needs to be more access.

Give the players the ability to choose if they want two statics in their home system (or three statics in c2 and c4 space). Come up with something. Some structure or deployable that generates a second static for your group on regular intervals. I'd even give people a pve incentive and say that this device will generate more pve sites on a regular basis. Only works if the below is a possibility.

We need a way to deal with people critting their holes. It's hard to eat the Bears if they crit their hole to the point a venture will collapse it. We have the ability to increase our mass. We should have the ability to reduce a groups total mass. Maybe make the heavy interdictor have a new bubble script that reduces the mass of everybody in its effective range (similar to how it reduces the mass of the hic). See a crit hole, scout says "there doing sites". Bring the heavy int with the script and your 20 t3's. Activate script. Everybody jumps through the hole with the effective size of a shuttle or pod. On the return. Heavy int does the same thing. If worried about the frigate sized wormholes, put a ship type cap on it. This is more of an ability idea than anything else.

How to increase the type and variety of fights? Make it so that if someone doesn't fight, you can disable or despawn their sites. So now they can't farm either. We do that with the ess. Don't fight. We blow up your ess.

This.

I mean what's the point in even committing a significant fleet to fight one of them when there's almost a certainty that they have one or two other groups lined up to come dunk you.

Tie that in with all the farming holes (because it's currently the most efficient way to make isk in WH space in the high end holes) and you have your answer of why it is why it is.

Also, GET FKED making wh appear on overview without scanning. Seriously, GET FKED.