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Last thread about CSM was closed for not being constructive... Take 2 on the CSM
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#41 - 2011-12-04 22:17:30 UTC
Arjola Elongur wrote:
I'm pretty sure there will be a much higher participation rate in the next election.
After all the highsec dwellers will try to prevent another "nullsec CSM". Big smile


Don't count on that. It takes a lot of time to mobylize people you can't just Alliance-mail. Roll

Giving a voice to the scattered majority can be done in three ways:

- A, ask CCP to force them to vote (European style)
- B, assemble them in a grassroot movement (American style)
- C, pressure the CSM with A, B, or both so they are forced to serve the majority in addition to serve their special interests

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Thevi Olin
0lin Rouge
#42 - 2011-12-04 22:19:57 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:

Welcome to democracy. I have a better suggestion. Put yourself forward as a member of the CSM at the next election, campaign and raise your profile. If you attract enough people to vote for you, you can have an input. But don't complain because someone else has the motivation to get off their arses and actually do something other than ***** and moan.


this
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#43 - 2011-12-04 22:33:30 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Before throwing around ideas of forcing people to vote (when forcing people to do something is a very quick way for a game like Eve to lose customers), and before assuming that "85%" of the player base doesn't care to vote, would it be possible at all to get solid data on how many active unique players in Eve actually know that they *can* vote?

How many players join Eve and inundated with all the shiny of a new game totally miss the concept that they have a voice when it comes to what might be done with the game?

I do not support forced voting for something like Eve.
I would support an optional vote at the character select screen. Above or below the news feed on the right side of the select screen, you could place another box that has a list of current issues with simple yes/no radio button voting. Links could be provided to allow the users who want more info to view the related forum threads for more in-depth information on what they are voting on.

It is non-intrusive and doesn't force the players to do anything, but gets the issues in front of the players. It can be ignored or read as easily as the news feed. It allows for the players to vote for people running for CSM at that particular election time, and also allows the CSM to have guidance over which issues are presented to the players for vote.



CCP throw the CSM election in your face for weeks, including notices on the log-in screen. It takes a wilfull decision not to know anything about it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2011-12-04 22:34:03 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

CSM already does represent every player who cares enough to be represented. ...


I don't think soo...


Um, yes? Clearly, the majority of the people in highsec didn't care enough to vote, so they didn't vote. Therefore, the majority of highsec who didn't vote is represented by the fact that there are no highsec based CSM members - obviously, highsec is fine as it is, or so the majority of highseccers seem to think. Maybe YOU don't think so, but that doesn't mean you should have an elected CSM member for it.

Hell, even W-Space has a CSM representative. Why? Because W-space dwellers, which consist of FIVE PERCENT of EVE, actually care enough about improving the game to vote.

Whiners have nobody to blame but each other.
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-12-04 22:37:49 UTC
Actually OP is right at some point.
I actually didn't vote and most of my friends too because none of the CSM represented any of my thoughts or what I wanted.
The option "vote against all" should be there.

I lived in null for like 5 years. Few month ago I moved to hisec because I don't have much time for pvp or anything in null anymore.
(Yes, doing missions is the only casual-friendly feature in this game.)
So after some time I met a lot of friendly people called "carebears". It was a suprise to me to know none of them go to the forums at all. I asked like 10-15 players.

My conclusion is this forum mostly visited by null players, WoW trolls and low-sec whiners, therefore none of them represent the real EvE population.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#46 - 2011-12-04 22:39:38 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Before throwing around ideas of forcing people to vote (when forcing people to do something is a very quick way for a game like Eve to lose customers), and before assuming that "85%" of the player base doesn't care to vote, would it be possible at all to get solid data on how many active unique players in Eve actually know that they *can* vote?

How many players join Eve and inundated with all the shiny of a new game totally miss the concept that they have a voice when it comes to what might be done with the game?

I do not support forced voting for something like Eve.
I would support an optional vote at the character select screen. Above or below the news feed on the right side of the select screen, you could place another box that has a list of current issues with simple yes/no radio button voting. Links could be provided to allow the users who want more info to view the related forum threads for more in-depth information on what they are voting on.

It is non-intrusive and doesn't force the players to do anything, but gets the issues in front of the players. It can be ignored or read as easily as the news feed. It allows for the players to vote for people running for CSM at that particular election time, and also allows the CSM to have guidance over which issues are presented to the players for vote.


Well, CCP already advertised the last election. They spammed the login screen with CSM adds. They set a special page so candidates showed their programme.

By reading that page I noticed how most of the candidates were intereted in stuff i didn't care at all, and anyway i didn't knew who the hell they WERE. I voted for the only candidate who campaigned my environment, whcih actually was the only I knew (and i agreed with what he said, too).

There are many issues, lack of awareness of the election is only one. There is knowing the candidates; how many people knows you ingame? How many people do you know? Why should you worry to learn who the candidates are? What if no candidate talks about what worries you? What if you don't even know what the hell are they talking about? What if you perceive that they are a part of a cartel and they will be voted en masse by an established organisation, like an alliance, so your vote is meaningless? What if you are told that the main reason of this it's your fault to not bloody know every last alliance, corporation, main and alt from over one million characters? Despite that most of that information is either secret or unavailable?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Ai Shun
#47 - 2011-12-04 22:57:45 UTC
Fix My Lasers wrote:
I actually didn't vote and most of my friends too because none of the CSM represented any of my thoughts or what I wanted.


Why did you not put a candidate forward? Did you talk to any of those standing to find out what they thought of your issues?

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
By reading that page I noticed how most of the candidates were intereted in stuff i didn't care at all, and anyway i didn't knew who the hell they WERE. I voted for the only candidate who campaigned my environment, whcih actually was the only I knew (and i agreed with what he said, too).


It is not a popularity contest. Vote based off their ideas, not whether you know them or not.

You say "What if no candidate talks about what worries you?"

How many of the candidates did you approach to ask them for their stance on your list of important issues?

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
There is knowing the candidates; how many people knows you ingame? How many people do you know? Why should you worry to learn who the candidates are? What if no candidate talks about what worries you? What if you don't even know what the hell are they talking about? What if you perceive that they are a part of a cartel and they will be voted en masse by an established organisation, like an alliance, so your vote is meaningless? What if you are told that the main reason of this it's your fault to not bloody know every last alliance, corporation, main and alt from over one million characters? Despite that most of that information is either secret or unavailable?


Oh ****. Seriously?!?

There is no point to this.
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2011-12-04 22:58:53 UTC
Vote with your wallet. That is the vote that really matters.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#49 - 2011-12-04 23:04:34 UTC
Fix My Lasers wrote:
Actually OP is right at some point.
I actually didn't vote and most of my friends too because none of the CSM represented any of my thoughts or what I wanted.
The option "vote against all" should be there.

I lived in null for like 5 years. Few month ago I moved to hisec because I don't have much time for pvp or anything in null anymore.
(Yes, doing missions is the only casual-friendly feature in this game.)
So after some time I met a lot of friendly people called "carebears". It was a suprise to me to know none of them go to the forums at all. I asked like 10-15 players.

My conclusion is this forum mostly visited by null players, WoW trolls and low-sec whiners, therefore none of them represent the real EvE population.


Well, being from an ancient, cynical an barely democratical nation, I will tell you this: when you tell people that something is not their business, they do tend to agree in principle.

Hisec dwellers have been told for all the old forums that EVE was NOT their business. That they were barely tolerated by CCP and were called to be nerfed and trolled for not being "elite", "endgame", for not being nullsec. They didn't had a place in the CSM, hadn't a place in the forums, they were a scattered flock of freaks, "carebears".

I thought that EVE was not really my game because i was not in a corp, was not in nullsec, never PvPed and played the Only (TM) casual stuff -missions. Then I learned that players like me are the single largest minority, well ahead of the "elite" and thought: "WTF? Why does that people claim they are in charge when they're a minority?" It's simple: BECAUSE THIS WAY CCP SERVES THEIR INTERESTS.

In the event that CCP worries about their customers, they will listen to the CSM. That's a legacy from the good ole times when nullsec was the cooolest place to be rather than a bloody slavejob; CCP has been listening to oldtimers since ever. They are the "natural" interlocutors -or used to be until they became a minority.

But now CCP is back to the business of attending to their customers and unless we do something, CCP will keep spoonfeeding nullsec while we bore to death and quit EVE.

Nullsec are not the only ones who care about this game. They should not be the only ones responsible of guiding CCP in its development neither.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#50 - 2011-12-04 23:10:18 UTC
Hainnz wrote:
Vote with your wallet. That is the vote that really matters.


December 15, 6 months, is the last payment I do to this game. In May 2 or 3 will come time to pay for my alt account and likely will let it expire.

One month and a half later this account will expire too unless I am still playing it, or hoping to play some awesome summer 2012 expansion.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-12-04 23:10:23 UTC
Serious question:

I read in a ccp news story last election time (on the right-hand side of the character selection screen), that this last election cycle saw more isk spent on campaigning than any election before it. It also referenced this huge isk number, which I have long forgotten.

Can somebody tell me what exactly these 'campaign funds' get spent on? It's not like you can book television spots in Eve.

Takk.
Zleon Leigh
#52 - 2011-12-04 23:15:08 UTC
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:
Serious question:

[snip]
Can somebody tell me what exactly these 'campaign funds' get spent on? It's not like you can book television spots in Eve.

Takk.


The usual bribes to the Dev's of course. Since Null needed more coddling than usual the amount set a new record.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#53 - 2011-12-05 01:02:23 UTC
CSM = WOT
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2011-12-05 01:58:28 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Hisec dwellers have been told for all the old forums that EVE was NOT their business. That they were barely tolerated by CCP and were called to be nerfed and trolled for not being "elite", "endgame", for not being nullsec. They didn't had a place in the CSM, hadn't a place in the forums, they were a scattered flock of freaks, "carebears".
…and yet, the only ones saying this are the highsec carebears themselves. Maybe if you stopped considering yourselves such hapless and inevitable victims and actually did something about it, you'd stop thinking these things about yourselves.
Quote:
But now CCP is back to the business of attending to their customers and unless we do something, CCP will keep spoonfeeding nullsec while we bore to death and quit EVE.
So do something. Get someone elected. Considering the number of votes needed to get on the council, it shouldn't be that hard if your assumptions about the highsec population is true.
seanb29
Clan Black Dragon
#55 - 2011-12-05 03:10:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Hisec dwellers have been told for all the old forums that EVE was NOT their business. That they were barely tolerated by CCP and were called to be nerfed and trolled for not being "elite", "endgame", for not being nullsec. They didn't had a place in the CSM, hadn't a place in the forums, they were a scattered flock of freaks, "carebears".
…and yet, the only ones saying this are the highsec carebears themselves. Maybe if you stopped considering yourselves such hapless and inevitable victims and actually did something about it, you'd stop thinking these things about yourselves.
Quote:
But now CCP is back to the business of attending to their customers and unless we do something, CCP will keep spoonfeeding nullsec while we bore to death and quit EVE.
So do something. Get someone elected. Considering the number of votes needed to get on the council, it shouldn't be that hard if your assumptions about the highsec population is true.


hmm ok am a carebear and i been playing since 2003 and i never heard ccp saying that so i like to know where you got your info from and when exactly ccp had said that?
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-12-05 03:58:34 UTC
Thevi Olin wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:

Welcome to democracy. I have a better suggestion. Put yourself forward as a member of the CSM at the next election, campaign and raise your profile. If you attract enough people to vote for you, you can have an input. But don't complain because someone else has the motivation to get off their arses and actually do something other than ***** and moan.


this


Democracy = 1 person, 1 vote. Where you have multiple account holders - multiple votes... That's no more democracy than stuffing the ballot box IRL. That doesn't balance well with single account holders getting a say.

"Well I spend more..." - translations "buying your way through the game". It would be more like giving all business entities a vote IRL. So someone who owns 20 small businesses would have 20 votes - even if they were simply "legal entities" sitting in some lawyers file cabinet.

Simply put - you figure everyone has tons of accounts but not all do and that is where your "democracy" bullshit comes to light and where "buying votes" shines bright.
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Doomheim
#57 - 2011-12-05 04:03:25 UTC
Speaking of buying votes (rimshot!), anybody have any input on the question I asked a few posts back? I'd really like to know.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2011-12-05 04:03:40 UTC
Democracy is failure in itself. You can call it whatever you want, its still feudalism you got owners you just dont know about it.
Enjoy your money. heh. Whatever.
Arbiter Reformed
I Have a Plan
Shadow Cartel
#59 - 2011-12-05 04:13:55 UTC
WE!!!! ARE!!! THE 85 % !!!!!!!!!!!!!


RABLERABLERABLE


"news teams have reported forums are now being occupied by what can only be described as bears"


.... class warfare has begun
XavierVE
No Corporation for Old Spacemen
#60 - 2011-12-05 04:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: XavierVE
CSM has always been a game-breaking joke. It's simply used as an avenue to gain insight on upcoming changes so alliance leaders can prepare their alliances ahead of time, getting a leg-up on everyone else. The CSM doesn't care about the health of the game, and that's not just the most current iteration, but every iteration. It's an intel-gathering tool, nothing more.

The CSM has never improved EVE, only the playerbase rising up and rioting/unsubbing was able to accomplish that.

The OP's overbearing post is pointless, there is no way to "improve" The CSM, other than simply getting rid of the entire process and ditching the lame PR stunt. Has nothing to do with null- or high- sec dwellers at all.