These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Optimal ME level for BPOs?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kya Koshi
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-12-04 17:16:19 UTC
I'm trying to figure out what the best ME level is for BPO's.

Linky: http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9306/phasedplasma.jpg


The BPO on the left is a BPO with just my skills (Production Efficiency III)

The BPO on the right is the same, however it has been researched to ME 50.

What is the formula for figuring out what the best ME level is for a BPO? 50 seems overkill for ammo, but I can't find a formula for determining the optimal ME level.
Kahldor
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-12-04 17:45:41 UTC
I just use EVEMon.
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
#3 - 2011-12-04 17:59:04 UTC
Anything below 50000ME isnt worth using i suggest you take it to at least 75000
Vaaca
Crown Enterprises
#4 - 2011-12-04 17:59:07 UTC
This is my favorite one. Very simple to read and use.

http://zofu.no-ip.de/bpo

Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-12-04 18:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Taedrin
What do you mean by *optimal*?

First off, you need to train Production Efficiency up to level V pronto. Not having this trained makes *ALL* BPOs consume an extra 8% in materials. When it comes to T1 items, this extra waste is *huge*.

Second, each level of ME research decreases the amount of waste by half. So if your blueprint has 10% waste, ME1 has 5% waste, ME 2 has 2.5% waste, ME 3 has 1.25% waste, etc etc...

If you want a specific formula, I can give you the recurrence relation:

W(n) = W(n-1)/2

Since each successive term differs by a constant factor, we know that this is a geometric progression. As such we can use a geometric series to give us a formula:

W(n) = a * r^(n-1) = .1 * (1/2)^(n)

Copy and paste URL for a plot (CCP forums are terribad at parsing URLS these days it seems):
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=10+*+%281%2F2%29^%28n%29+n+from+0+to+20

Note that the plot is done in percentage points, i.e. .1 = 10%

Where "a" is the amount of waste for ME 0 BPO, and n is the ME level of the BPO.


Generally speaking there is little point in researching most BPOs past level 10 or 20. Sometimes someone will heavily research a BPO - it should be noted that the gains are negligible and will likely never see a return on investment in your (EVE) lifetime.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#6 - 2011-12-04 18:42:23 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
(lots of stuff, some is wrong, other stuff is just really convoluted)


Most BPOs start at 10% base waste (the new POS Fuel BPOs are 5%). Every level of ME reduces the waste by half, to around 0.45% at ME 20.

Assuming the base waste is 10%, the maths for figuring out what a particular ME will do are as follows:
W = (0.1 / (1 + ME) )

where:
W = Waste
ME = ME Level of the BPO

Now, as a player, you inherently add 25% waste to whatever the BPO has (hence when looking at it, you'll see two numbers ... e.g. Tritanium 100 (perfect) 125 (you)). You can reduce this waste to 0% by training the skill Production Efficiency to level 5. The T1 market is pretty cut throat, so getting PE 5 is a really good idea.


Most things are "optimal" at around twenty, though there are exceptions:
1. Rigs are perfect at around 5/10/15 (s/m/l ... give or take)
2. The new POS Fuel BPOs are perfect at 40
3. Cap Ships are usually "optimal" between 3 and 5. "Perfect" may be somewhere from 6 (Orca) to 15 or 20, but anything more than 5-6 is a waste of time (it takes 30+ days to get one ME level on a capship).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kya Koshi
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-12-04 18:51:43 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
First off, you need to train Production Efficiency up to level V pronto. Not having this trained makes *ALL* BPOs consume an extra 8% in materials. When it comes to T1 items, this extra waste is *huge*.


Working on it, I have PE 4 in the queue right now. PE5 is going to take 2 weeks, that sucks.



Velicitia wrote:

Assuming the base waste is 10%, the maths for figuring out what a particular ME will do are as follows:
W = (0.1 / (1 + ME) )

where:
W = Waste
ME = ME Level of the BPO

Now, as a player, you inherently add 25% waste to whatever the BPO has (hence when looking at it, you'll see two numbers ... e.g. Tritanium 100 (perfect) 125 (you)). You can reduce this waste to 0% by training the skill Production Efficiency to level 5. The T1 market is pretty cut throat, so getting PE 5 is a really good idea.


Most things are "optimal" at around twenty, though there are exceptions:
1. Rigs are perfect at around 5/10/15 (s/m/l ... give or take)
2. The new POS Fuel BPOs are perfect at 40
3. Cap Ships are usually "optimal" between 3 and 5. "Perfect" may be somewhere from 6 (Orca) to 15 or 20, but anything more than 5-6 is a waste of time (it takes 30+ days to get one ME level on a capship).



Thanks, that's very useful.

I'm not researching BPOs myself, I've started buying them on contracts when I see a good deal.

Wouldn't getting a higher ME on ships be worthwhile since they require a massive amounts of resources?
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-12-04 20:46:08 UTC
Kya Koshi wrote:
Wouldn't getting a higher ME on ships be worthwhile since they require a massive amounts of resources?

in most cases the answer is "depends". While a higher ME level will reduce the mineral requirement to produce, the diminishing returns for researching ME levels, also take into consideration the cost for researching and the lost production time while it is being researched make getting to that theoretical perfect ME level almost a fools quest. That said, if you have the resources(research POS with idle ME research slots) and the BPO is going to be idle anyway(not able to be produced economically) go ahead and do it. Be aware that you will only be saving smaller and smaller sums for each level researched.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2011-12-04 21:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Vaaca wrote:
This is my favorite one. Very simple to read and use.

http://zofu.no-ip.de/bpo

That site is a pretty good guide.

Personally, I calculate how much ISK is wasted at every M.E. level, and check market prices and market history.

Typically you want to avoid waste on the materials with the highest unit price.

Example: If a 10% base waste BPO uses 50 Megacyte, see if FLOOR(50 / 5.5) = M.E. 9 (no waste) is worth the time to research. This calculation can be repeated for each material, in descending order of cost. For a 5% base waste BPO, use a divisor of 10.5 instead. The above linked site seems to stop at Isogen or Mexallon, not bothering with Tritanium or Pyerite.

Generally it is pointless to try to save every single unit of Tritanium, and sometimes you can't eliminate waste on any of the materials if the amounts are high (ships).
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-12-05 06:12:50 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Taedrin wrote:
(lots of stuff, some is wrong, other stuff is just really convoluted)


Most BPOs start at 10% base waste (the new POS Fuel BPOs are 5%). Every level of ME reduces the waste by half, to around 0.45% at ME 20.

Assuming the base waste is 10%, the maths for figuring out what a particular ME will do are as follows:
W = (0.1 / (1 + ME) )

where:
W = Waste
ME = ME Level of the BPO

Now, as a player, you inherently add 25% waste to whatever the BPO has (hence when looking at it, you'll see two numbers ... e.g. Tritanium 100 (perfect) 125 (you)). You can reduce this waste to 0% by training the skill Production Efficiency to level 5. The T1 market is pretty cut throat, so getting PE 5 is a really good idea.


Most things are "optimal" at around twenty, though there are exceptions:
1. Rigs are perfect at around 5/10/15 (s/m/l ... give or take)
2. The new POS Fuel BPOs are perfect at 40
3. Cap Ships are usually "optimal" between 3 and 5. "Perfect" may be somewhere from 6 (Orca) to 15 or 20, but anything more than 5-6 is a waste of time (it takes 30+ days to get one ME level on a capship).



My bad, I had the mistaken understanding that each level of ME reduces waste by half. Guess I learned that bit incorrectly oh so many years ago. Good thing I don't write my own spreadsheets for manufacturing, Big smile.

Even though the formula you give (which is a harmonic progression) converges much slower than a geometric progression for r < 1, it will still converge to zero. Thus my point still remains: there is little point in taking research beyond ME 10, perhaps ME 20 unless you have nothing better to do with your time. Especially for a new player, they shouldn't pay any extra money for over-researched blueprints - it just doesn't make good business sense.

Oh yeah, and technically Production Efficiency only reduces mat requirements by 20% and not 25%, but that's just me nitpicking in a vain attempt to save some face.
Bloody Wench
#11 - 2011-12-05 12:53:12 UTC
The highest material you care about divided by 5.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#12 - 2011-12-05 15:09:23 UTC
Vaaca wrote:
This is my favorite one. Very simple to read and use.

http://zofu.no-ip.de/bpo



+1


It's handy to know the math behind it, but not /needed/. If you're buying pre-researched BPOs and BPCs, you'll find there's a whole bunch which have been researched to a truly moronic degree. Especially on rigs. ME 100, where you have no waste at all at ME 20. That kind of thing.


Rule of thumb:

Each time you double the ME, you half the waste.


It's not quite accurate, but it's close enough for government work. Research enough to reduce the waste on the expensive bits to less than 1 (at which point they go away Big smile), then look at the cost of the cheap stuff. You'll probably find that you'd need to sell hundreds to make up for the research costs.

Something like Ammo lends itself better for high ME values, as you will be doing thousands of production runs. Ships, less so.

Take a look at a Thrasher BPO. ME 2 takes out all but 15k isk of waste. you have to spend another 4 weeks researching it to drop it to 2k. (I'd make my point better if I could remember how much that would cost to research.)


As a side note, if you're going to be using this for invention, don't bother with ME and PE research. It makes no difference to the outcome.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2011-12-05 16:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Bloody Wench wrote:
The highest material you care about divided by 5.

... only if you are looking at database numbers for a 10% BPO (i.e. base amounts).

For BPO in-game it is 5.5 for 10%, as I posted above.

Generically:

M.E. = FLOOR ( 2 * Base Waste * Material Amount / (1 + Base Waste) )

Or divide the amount of material by the reciprocal if you want a non-repeating number that is easy to remember (like 5.5):

M.E. = FLOOR( Material Amount / ((1 + Base Waste) / (2 * Baste Waste)) )

Example: 10% BPO
M.E. = FLOOR( Material Amount / ((1 + 0.10) / (2 * 0.10)) )
= FLOOR( Material Amount / (1.10 / 0.2) ) =
= FLOOR( Material Amount / 5.5 )
Velicitia
XS Tech
#14 - 2011-12-05 17:06:12 UTC
Taedrin wrote:

Oh yeah, and technically Production Efficiency only reduces mat requirements by 20% and not 25%, but that's just me nitpicking in a vain attempt to save some face.


hmm, I thought it was 5% per level... not that the difference we were talking about matters -- we both effectively said "get it to 5 or have waste".

Here's the rough numbers from the wiki pages on ME levels (assuming 10% base BPO):
ML0 - 10%
ML1 - 5%
ML2 - 3.3%
ML3 - 2.5%
ML10 - 0.9%
ML50 - 0.2%

you're completely right with the diminishing returns though (Time research is even worse), and ME 20 is a good "stop here" point for most ships. BS I research higher, because of the amount of highends used...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#15 - 2011-12-05 17:36:10 UTC
Production efficiency waste:

at 0: 125% of base
at 1: 120% of base
2 : 115%
3: 110%
5: 105%
5: 100%
Hence, 5 % reduction.

on the other hand, assuming that the base material is 100 for easy maths:
0: 125
1: 120. 120 is 96% of 125, so a 4% reduction.
2: 115. 115 is 92% of 125. so a 8% reduction.

And so on.

The joy of maths Big smile

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter