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Raven Navy Issue vs Scorpion Navi Issue vs Rattlesnake | Alternatives?
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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#21 - 2015-04-20 20:55:40 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
so much bleurgh in this post =S

Do you know how much of this is wrong?


enlighten us


Well the rokh is a hybrid turret boat, and the navy scorp is a missile boat for one. And using the term "kite" on a BS is alil far fetched, no?

Can it be done? Yes. But it is not the intended role of the ship. Thats more mach/bharg territory.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#22 - 2015-04-20 21:42:58 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Well the rokh is a hybrid turret boat, and the navy scorp is a missile boat for one. And using the term "kite" on a BS is alil far fetched, no?

Can it be done? Yes. But it is not the intended role of the ship. Thats more mach/bharg territory.


Stich dear,
what I meant was the navy scorpion moves with the mobility of the Rokh and close to the same amount of tank.

According to the battleship rebalance thread the 'role' of the Raven was 'fast moving attack battleship', so it is just a quote.

If we were to follow the tiericide approach vision, the Navy Scorpion would have been a tankier Scorpion but instead she isn't a super-tanky ecm-boat.

The Golem is not a Raven improvement but a special case boat. I wanted to reflect that tech2 is not better than tech one but different.

Our pirate faction ships are the top improvements of two worlds and should always be seen at the top of the performance pyramid.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-04-21 02:41:52 UTC
That's a strange comparision SNI and Rokh where SNI is an improved model of ROkh.

Maybe you forgot about Widow which is improved version of Scorpion. SNI outperform Rokh in tanking ability easily.

And Raven's family in a logical tierisation from Raven to Golem where CNR is just a mid step while you training for a pro Golem pilot.

As well as Rattler is not an improved version of Raven at all.

"Rattlesnake
Rattlesnake In the time-honored tradition of pirates everywhere, Korako ‘Rabbit' Kosakami shamelessly stole the idea of the Scorpion-class battleship and put his own spin on it. The result: the fearsome Rattlesnake, flagship of any large Gurista attack force. There are, of course, also those who claim things were the other way around; that the notorious silence surrounding the Scorpion's own origins is, in fact, an indication of its having been designed by Kosakami all along." copyright.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#24 - 2015-04-21 03:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
elitatwo wrote:
According to the battleship rebalance thread the 'role' of the Raven was 'fast moving attack battleship', so it is just a quote.

There is often a HUGE difference between what the DEVs intend and how things actually are.


The Raven is battleship. Battleships are, by and large, lumbering beasts of burden. They should be fitted and treated as such.
(note: there ARE exceptions to this... but I would not recommend such things to a person who is obviously "green")


Getting back on topic...

Both the Navy Scorpion and Navy Raven are straight "upgrades" from the Raven... but in different ways.

(using similar fits with level 5 skills)
- The Navy Scorpion is basically a tankier version of the Raven with roughly the same damage ability.
- The Navy Raven is a gankier version of the Raven with better damage application and roughly the same tank.
- The Golem has about the same gankiness as the Navy Raven... with a tank as good or absurdly better than the Navy Scorpion.

The Rattlesnake is kind of a "lateral move" from the Golem.
It can pump out more damage (easily 1000+), apply most of the damage better (because drones apply better than missiles)... but with a tank only as good as the Navy Scorpion.


Yuri Gagarijn...

Do what baltec said. Start with the REGULAR Raven first. You want to make mistakes (and you WILL make mistakes) in something "cheap" before you move on to more expensive hardware.

How did you Veterans start?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#25 - 2015-04-21 04:02:47 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Well the rokh is a hybrid turret boat, and the navy scorp is a missile boat for one. And using the term "kite" on a BS is alil far fetched, no?

Can it be done? Yes. But it is not the intended role of the ship. Thats more mach/bharg territory.


Stich dear,
what I meant was the navy scorpion moves with the mobility of the Rokh and close to the same amount of tank.

According to the battleship rebalance thread the 'role' of the Raven was 'fast moving attack battleship', so it is just a quote.

If we were to follow the tiericide approach vision, the Navy Scorpion would have been a tankier Scorpion but instead she isn't a super-tanky ecm-boat.

The Golem is not a Raven improvement but a special case boat. I wanted to reflect that tech2 is not better than tech one but different.

Our pirate faction ships are the top improvements of two worlds and should always be seen at the top of the performance pyramid.



You have defecated so much wrong into this discussion that even if any of your statements were correct they are now wrong because of the stain of your horrendous posting.

Everything you have said in this thread, is hereby wrong. Very wrong.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#26 - 2015-04-21 04:32:27 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
You have defecated so much wrong into this discussion that even if any of your statements were correct they are now wrong because of the stain of your horrendous posting.

Everything you have said in this thread, is hereby wrong. Very wrong.


And YOU have zero credibility and nobody believes anything you ever say. So stop talking altogether and keep it in your purse.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-04-21 04:51:55 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
You have defecated so much wrong into this discussion that even if any of your statements were correct they are now wrong because of the stain of your horrendous posting.

Everything you have said in this thread, is hereby wrong. Very wrong.


And YOU have zero credibility and nobody believes anything you ever say. So stop talking altogether and keep it in your purse.



I am just going to Kite your comments in my Erebus of thought Roll

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2015-04-21 22:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Caleidascope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Yuri Gagarijn wrote:
How much SP do you recommend for the RS? Im just playing for two or three months.


1) I would say go for the raven

2) and use it for level 3 missions to get used to the ship class.

1 is good advice.
2 is bad advice.



No it is sound advice.

Level 3 missions are far less dangerous than diving right into level 4 missions and will allow the OP to use the battleship with far fewer skills both in terms of SP and piloting.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#29 - 2015-04-22 00:46:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Yuri Gagarijn wrote:
How much SP do you recommend for the RS? Im just playing for two or three months.


I would say go for the raven and use it for level 3 missions to get used to the ship class.


That's just terrible advice, don't do it. Cruise missiles don't do well for smaller ships, but I am sure baltec1 is just trolling.

The RS is imo the better choice, you can blap frigs on their way in with sentries which you can't do with cruise missiles. Raven nay is a decent ship but I find it needs really good skills to work properly. Start with a scorp navy and go from there is you a missile pilot. RS is a longer train as you need but cruise and sentry skills to make it shine

... What next ??
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-04-22 00:47:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Caleidascope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Yuri Gagarijn wrote:
How much SP do you recommend for the RS? Im just playing for two or three months.


1) I would say go for the raven

2) and use it for level 3 missions to get used to the ship class.

1 is good advice.
2 is bad advice.



No it is sound advice.

Level 3 missions are far less dangerous than diving right into level 4 missions and will allow the OP to use the battleship with far fewer skills both in terms of SP and piloting.



I think the point they were trying to make is a Raven is a horrible choice for L3 missions and they are correct. However I see what you want the OP to accomplish so I understand your reasoning for the suggestion.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Paranoid Loyd
#31 - 2015-04-22 00:52:19 UTC
It's not a horrible choice. It's not the best, but there are many that are worse.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-04-22 01:19:25 UTC
Raven at lvl 3 is the most saifest place where newbe could try it. Very few of those are hard enough to test the teeth on.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2015-04-23 03:20:39 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Caleidascope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Yuri Gagarijn wrote:
How much SP do you recommend for the RS? Im just playing for two or three months.


1) I would say go for the raven

2) and use it for level 3 missions to get used to the ship class.

1 is good advice.
2 is bad advice.



No it is sound advice.

Level 3 missions are far less dangerous than diving right into level 4 missions and will allow the OP to use the battleship with far fewer skills both in terms of SP and piloting.



I think the point they were trying to make is a Raven is a horrible choice for L3 missions and they are correct. However I see what you want the OP to accomplish so I understand your reasoning for the suggestion.


Slap RHML on it and its not too shabby. ( It earns more than an ishtar in lvl 3 blitzing) Its not a mach thats for sure.
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-04-23 16:52:43 UTC
I am with Baltec here, start with a Raven and slap RHML on it also some warp speed rigs while getting accustomed to the ship and training up missile and shield skill you will be able to make some isks, LP doing level 3s. When your skills got better you can switch to level 4s (with cruise missiles).

Once your overall skills and your missile skills have become more solid you can decide to go for the Golem or train sentry/heavies and go for the Rattlesnake.

By this you will avoid agonizingly slow level 4s at the beginning, the occasional ship loss due to a mistake all the while you geap up isks and LP and all that in a not so expensive hull.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-04-23 23:22:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



I think the point they were trying to make is a Raven is a horrible choice for L3 missions and they are correct. However I see what you want the OP to accomplish so I understand your reasoning for the suggestion.


Slap RHML on it and its not too shabby. ( It earns more than an ishtar in lvl 3 blitzing) Its not a mach thats for sure.



If he has the skills to properly use RHML then he has no business being in a raven. I get the point was to have him learn how to use a Golem one day... but RHML and cruise and RHML and torps are completely different beasts. With the current price of pirate BS and navy BS I see no reason not to have him start in an overtanked SNI or Rattle or RNI.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#36 - 2015-04-24 07:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cephelange du'Krevviq
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Scorp has good tank but bad application, you will eventually need to sacrifice tank for target painters.


Between its resist bonuses and number of midslots, you can easily spare 1 mid slot for a painter, which is really all you need.

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#37 - 2015-04-24 09:11:07 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
The Golem is not a Raven improvement but a special case boat. I wanted to reflect that tech2 is not better than tech one but different.

It is the specialized Raven, even share the same improved hull, and is better than T1 brother. More DPS, better tank, capacitor, range, application etc.
King of DPS is Rattle now. King of tank - Golem.
Progression in missile boats for T4:
Raven (MJD for start) -> SNI (for better tank)/RNI (for better application) -> Golem (for tank and spank)/Rattlesnake (best dps in class).
Flew every above except the Golem.

My favourites: raven with MJD -> SNI (tanky and close combat, flying brick) -> sniper rattle.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#38 - 2015-04-24 09:52:46 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



I think the point they were trying to make is a Raven is a horrible choice for L3 missions and they are correct. However I see what you want the OP to accomplish so I understand your reasoning for the suggestion.


Slap RHML on it and its not too shabby. ( It earns more than an ishtar in lvl 3 blitzing) Its not a mach thats for sure.



If he has the skills to properly use RHML then he has no business being in a raven. I get the point was to have him learn how to use a Golem one day... but RHML and cruise and RHML and torps are completely different beasts. With the current price of pirate BS and navy BS I see no reason not to have him start in an overtanked SNI or Rattle or RNI.


so if he has the skills to use rhml he shouldnt be in a raven but should be in a rattlesnake which uses 2 different (long train) weapon systems? what use will a rattler be in a mission if his drone, cruise and core skills are subpar

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-04-24 11:57:13 UTC
You all forget to mention a very important thing about the rattler

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage

Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoint

the important part beeing the role bonus here.


This basicely means that the rattler, the worm and the gila all dont need the ship skills at any reasonably high level to work so they are super easy on the skill points, coupled with asburd tanking abilities and easy to fit stuff

[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender I
Large Shield Extender I
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I

Republic Fleet Bouncer x2

something like this (im no mission runner and this is probably not a fit you should take to actually do missions in, its an example) is easily useable in 2-3 month and even then you are looking at over 230k ehp vs kinetic (or refit vs the tank type you want with a 500dps tank and 750+ dps (or 900+ if you use a gecko).


And if you can actually fly it well it has absurd tank, absurd dps and its almost ungankable due to a really sick passive tank on top of that.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-04-24 12:28:50 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=376788

There are some interesting fits rattler included.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP