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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#501 - 2015-04-21 18:40:32 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

= They are in the toilet because supply is crushing demand ever since Phoebe and Jump Fatigue. Prior to that the changes to Ice in HS were positive in increasing the valuation of Ice products. Compared to the old system where Ice never went away and people could "AFK mine" it all day long.

= The post was not a post it was the point i made right above (regarding the changes to Ice mining mechanics in HS).

= They do have them though, its just easier and less effort to import from highsec because there are more folks actively mining there. The changes don't actually fill a void, they just make it easier to get what you want and require less effort to do so, which are good. However I wager folks who can mostly guarantee a safe avenue will still source most of their minerals from HS...because again its easier and less effort to buy a million trit and stick it in a JF (even with fatigue), than mine a million trit.

= This is not a result of mechanics though, this is a choice of the person doing the production who would rather risk their 7B JF to get material from HS, that is available outside their front door. Even if the market tanked it has no bearing on dependency of JFs. Instead of supplying HS with highends, NS folks could just sit on their and use it for their own production. If people determine that the effort/result isn't worth their time to mine...then they can choose to import...i don't see what is wrong with that. Choice is always greater than requirement.

Actually up until last year, you could source pretty much every highend you would ever need from gun mining. When CCP nerfed it the dependency on NS went up...and it is why the markets are the way they are right now in terms of High End availability. (and i made this argument then as well that mineral scarcity on high ends would become a thing...so this is not a new thing from me)

(and this also isn't about cost, because that would just get rolled into the final product sale price, simply about availability of the mineral itself)

In what world do you live in where a JF is ever at risk?

Nullsec empires are dependent on JFs currently because there are not enough lowends in nullsec. Lowends have to be JFed up from empire to build anything. It's just a fact. No amount of hemming and hawing about nullsec lowend supply is going to change that. Furthermore, the lowends that are currently available in nullsec come in the form of HIGHSEC ORES. Why would we mine highsec ores in vastly more dangerous nullsec when it can be done in highsec?

The rub on JFs is while they currently enable nullsec to function, it's not without a cost. Currently, I pay 300 isk per m^3 to have things shipped from empire to nullsec, and that is to Deklein, a region that is 2j from empire. If you wanna see some serious highway robbery, check out Black Frog's freight costs. Everything coming into nullsec has that tax applied to it. Meanwhile, highsec enjoys a vast ecosystem of considerably safer and significantly cheaper public courier services.

The changes described in the OP help to lessen the need of nullsec on the almighty jump freighter by not only improving nullsec mineral compositions, but also by making it not such an obviously terrible economic bargain to do so.

Also, gun mining died much earlier, when CCP removed the vast majority of t1 drops from rats. Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#502 - 2015-04-21 19:30:36 UTC
Querns wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.

This already happens -- the sites are called "wormholes."

I thought WHs were designed for only null sec use. High sec carebears don't go into WHs.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#503 - 2015-04-21 19:34:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they.

Out of curiosity, how exactly do you define "self sufficient"?

Is it the ability to build 20 supercaps per day? 100? 1000? An unlimited supply? :)
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#504 - 2015-04-21 19:35:49 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.

This already happens -- the sites are called "wormholes."

I thought WHs were designed for only null sec use. High sec carebears don't go into WHs.

Given the candor of whining by wormholer dwellers, how could you tell?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#505 - 2015-04-21 19:41:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
You've made the fundamental mistake of thinking that Eve is fair.

I have not heard a dev say this in a long time.

Didn't all of the "EVE isn't fair" devs leave CCP over the past year or so?
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#506 - 2015-04-21 19:43:50 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
I thought WHs were designed for only null sec use. High sec carebears don't go into WHs.

Given the candor of whining by wormholer dwellers, how could you tell?

Well, there is actually a different cadence to WH whining, which is much more in tune with nullbear whining than carebear whining... ;)
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#507 - 2015-04-21 19:47:27 UTC
Querns wrote:
Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.

Speaking of which....

CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#508 - 2015-04-21 19:59:32 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.

Speaking of which....

CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values?

Meta modules have no blueprint, so this will not happen.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#509 - 2015-04-21 20:02:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.

Speaking of which....

CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values?

Meta modules have no blueprint, so this will not happen.

Querns, my dear friend, you are not an alt of CCP Fozzie, are you?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#510 - 2015-04-21 20:04:50 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.

Speaking of which....

CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values?

Meta modules have no blueprint, so this will not happen.

Querns, my dear friend, you are not an alt of CCP Fozzie, are you?

Of course not, but I can make rational assumptions based on the intent of the changes.

Increasing zyd/mega content of meta modules would increase zyd/mega supply.

The point of the changes is to reduce zyd/mega supply.

This is not a difficult leap of logic.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#511 - 2015-04-21 20:05:49 UTC
Trying to trick people into making some sort of extra zyd/mega font in highsec is just not going to happen.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#512 - 2015-04-21 20:52:23 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

Querns, my dear friend, you are not an alt of CCP Fozzie, are you?

Of course not...

Hmm... now you've really got me wondering... it *would* certainly explain a few things... lol ;)
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#513 - 2015-04-21 21:04:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
Trying to trick people into making some sort of extra zyd/mega font in highsec is just not going to happen.

Actually, my only real interest is in trying to convince CCP to restore some balance, ie. value, to T1 module manufacturing, to encourage more new industrialists.

Currently, there isn't much reason to use, and thus build, T1 modules (except as a component of T2 modules) - which really doesn't leave much for noob manufacturers to build, except T1 ammo and maybe T1 rigs. They can't just jump into building T2 modules, you know - and the margins on T1 ships is too small to make sense for a noob manufacturer.

So, how do metas affect this? In addition to having better specs than T1 modules, low meta market prices are frequently cheaper than T1 module build cost. This is primarily because low meta supply is too high, which pushes their market price down to their reprocessing value, which is often below the T1 blueprint mineral value, esp. after the 50% nerf to reprocessing.

And, increasing the mega/zyd reqs on T1 module blueprints, without changing the meta reprocessing, will probably make this situation worse, not better.

So, there you go. This is why I ask the question about reprocessing metas.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#514 - 2015-04-21 21:08:51 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Trying to trick people into making some sort of extra zyd/mega font in highsec is just not going to happen.

Actually, my only real interest is in trying to convince CCP to restore some balance, ie. value, to T1 module manufacturing, to encourage more new industrialists.

Currently, there isn't much reason to use, and thus build, T1 modules (except as a component of T2 modules) - which really doesn't leave much for noob manufacturers to build, except T1 ammo and maybe T1 rigs. They can't just jump into building T2 modules, you know - and the margins on T1 ships is too small to make sense for a noob manufacturer.

So, how do metas affect this? In addition to having better specs than T1 modules, low meta market prices are frequently cheaper than T1 module build cost. This is primarily because low meta supply is too high, which pushes their market price down to their reprocessing value, which is often below the T1 blueprint mineral value, esp. after the 50% nerf to reprocessing.

And, increasing the mega/zyd reqs on T1 module blueprints, without changing the meta reprocessing, will probably make this situation worse, not better.

So, there you go. This is why I ask the question about reprocessing metas.

Two issues with this.

A) The increase in zyd/mega only accounts for 1-2% of the value of a typical T1 item, from the lowliest frigate ammo all the way up to Titans.

2) The corresponding drop in lowends, caused by the mining ecosystem balancing, will more than make up for the increase in highend quantities.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#515 - 2015-04-21 21:25:57 UTC
Querns wrote:

A) The increase in zyd/mega only accounts for 1-2% of the value of a typical T1 item, from the lowliest frigate ammo all the way up to Titans.

2) The corresponding drop in lowends, caused by the mining ecosystem balancing, will more than make up for the increase in highend quantities.

A) True for ships, not for all T1 modules. There are T1 items which require 1 Mega and/or 1 Zyd, and an insignifcant amount of lowends. CCP hasn't really done much work on rebalancing most T1 module BPOs since they were first released - too much focus on ships and T2 manufacturing. There are some pretty strange and unbalanced numbers in the T1 BPOs.

B) Not necessarily. In many cases, there isn't any logical correspondance between the minerals in the T1 BPO and the reprocessing of the metas. A T1 module may need 1 Mega + 1 Zyd + low ends to build; the meta may reprocess only to low ends. In this case, doubling the Mega/Zyd in the T1 BPO, without changing the meta reprocessing value, exacerbates the problem.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#516 - 2015-04-21 21:29:40 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:

A) The increase in zyd/mega only accounts for 1-2% of the value of a typical T1 item, from the lowliest frigate ammo all the way up to Titans.

2) The corresponding drop in lowends, caused by the mining ecosystem balancing, will more than make up for the increase in highend quantities.

A) True for ships, not for all T1 modules. There are T1 items which require 1 Mega and/or 1 Zyd, and an insignifcant amount of lowends. CCP hasn't really done much work on rebalancing most T1 module BPOs since they were first released - too much focus on ships and T2 manufacturing. There are some pretty strange and unbalanced numbers in the T1 BPOs.

B) Not necessarily. In many cases, there isn't any logical correspondance between the minerals in the T1 BPO and the reprocessing of the metas. A T1 module may need 1 Mega + 1 Zyd + low ends to build; the meta may reprocess only to low ends. In this case, doubling the Mega/Zyd in the T1 BPO, without changing the meta reprocessing value, exacerbates the problem.

Are you seriously nickle and diming the change so much that you're concerned about modules that take 1 zyd and 1 mega?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#517 - 2015-04-21 21:37:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
Are you seriously nickle and diming the change so much that you're concerned about modules that take 1 zyd and 1 mega?

Absolutely. New manufacturing players don't start out by manufacturing 2B ISK carriers. They start out by building cheap T1 stuff.

And, if CCP doesn't learn to put more dev focus on the nickel-and-dime things which are going to help interest new players, then time spent on changes to improve the so-called end games of null sec or high sec are just going to be a waste of time.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#518 - 2015-04-21 21:40:42 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Are you seriously nickle and diming the change so much that you're concerned about modules that take 1 zyd and 1 mega?

Absolutely. New manufacturing players don't start out by manufacturing 2B ISK carriers. They start out by building cheap T1 stuff.

And, if CCP doesn't learn to put more dev focus on the nickel-and-dime things which are going to help interest new players, then time spent on changes to improve the so-called end games of null sec or high sec are just going to be a waste of time.

Newbies also don't build things that take that few materials. Those items are the purvey of folks in highsec with significant capital, who can build large numbers of the item at a time in a POS to take advantage of the ME bonus over very large runs.

Also, I take offense to your assertation that nullsec is not a place for newbies. I personally podded to VFK within 24 hours of starting the game. Highsec is not training wheels for Eve.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#519 - 2015-04-21 21:55:22 UTC
Querns wrote:

Newbies also don't build things that take that few materials. Those items are the purvey of folks in highsec with significant capital, who can build large numbers of the item at a time in a POS to take advantage of the ME bonus over very large runs.

lol... that's because T1 manufacturing is broken. It has been focused on making things work for older, richer players - with no work really done to make it more viable for new players. There really should be no ME, POS or skill-based bonuses on manufacturing low end items.

Querns wrote:

Also, I take offense to your assertation that nullsec is not a place for newbies. I personally podded to VFK within 24 hours of starting the game. Highsec is not training wheels for Eve.

Did I ever say that?

Naw... I think the Goons noob program is actually more of how the game should actually work. I don't really agree with starting noobs out in high sec. I think everyone should start out in null or low; then they can move to high sec later, if they really want to do so.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#520 - 2015-04-21 22:03:08 UTC
So we as nullsec entities run out of game recruitment programs to get thousands of brand new players into eve online. We get them directly into nullsec and try to direct them to easy activities that they can do within a few days. Mining is the worst income per hour activity in the game at this point for an individual.

CCP announces a new change that will fix certain rocks to be rare and more valuable (namely ark) that a new player could cherry pick for some meaningful income. Also, these changes will allow a new player in null to be able to mine their own minerals in null to produce meaningful amounts of t1 items without having to import raw minerals or export a gigantic surplus of high end minerals that they can't use.

Yet- there are people that don't understand the changes that are claiming that this is an unfair boost to nullsec.


All I'm sayin is that highsec hates new players