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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

First post First post First post
Author
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#481 - 2015-04-21 16:03:34 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm thinking I'd have preferred ore in losec to be buffed. This would have put losec in the centre of ore trade between hi and null and boosted losec population potentially.


That does absolutely nothing to solve the issue that the change was made to help with.

Unless it being in lowsec magically manages to let to teleport to the outside rim of EVE without passing through the intervening space.

This is not a "We need to nerf highsec mining and we shall do it by buffing nullsec mining" change.
This is a "We need to buff nullsec mining to avoid major fallout with the new sov system" change.

Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#482 - 2015-04-21 16:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ncc 1709
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm thinking I'd have preferred ore in losec to be buffed. This would have put losec in the centre of ore trade between hi and null and boosted losec population potentially.

lowsec ores were buffed....
Mario Putzo
#483 - 2015-04-21 16:10:26 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
[quote=Corraidhin Farsaidh]
Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.


Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#484 - 2015-04-21 16:17:31 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Anhenka wrote:

Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.


Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist.

You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mario Putzo
#485 - 2015-04-21 16:25:34 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Anhenka wrote:

Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.


Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist.

You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you?


"I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead"
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#486 - 2015-04-21 16:27:38 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Anhenka wrote:

Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.


Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist.

You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you?


"I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead"

If you made arguments instead of tantrum-induced apoplexy, you'd have a point.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2015-04-21 16:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Mario Putzo wrote:
"I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead"

Our "position" is that CCP has stated their intended goal:

"Make nullsec more independent from highsec in terms of t1 production"

And their change to accomplish that:

"Buff nullsec anomalies to provide greater amounts of lowends and fewer highends"

Our position is CCP's positions.


We don't need to convince you of ****. If you want it changed, you need to supply reasons and explanations for CCP so that they might change their mind.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#488 - 2015-04-21 16:30:31 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Jita if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist.


FTFY.

So, just one little word away from the current status quo, and what a little word it is: People actually mine in The Forge. There was, I think, one guy who mined in low sec, and Noizy just moved into Thera. It's probably safer to mine there.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#489 - 2015-04-21 16:36:36 UTC
Querns wrote:
GankYou wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they.


NICE REGION, WE'LL TAKE IT! Cool

Upgraded Ore Anomalies are all uniform, however. Sad

Nah. Truesec plays a part in giving you boosted anoms with +5% and +10% variants.


That's cool. Big smile
Mario Putzo
#490 - 2015-04-21 16:43:08 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Anhenka wrote:

Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.


Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist.

You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you?


"I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead"

If you made arguments instead of tantrum-induced apoplexy, you'd have a point.


Right because asking for some HS and LS anoms that spawn Highend yielding Ore is tantrum induced apoplexy. You haven't really read anything I posted have you? Other than the lines you chose to cherry pick.

Fun fact, i am not arguing against the changes which is probably why you don't think im making any arguments (because im not), I think they are good changes (not ideal imo but good)...I would just like to see Highends available to LS and HS in a limited quantity as well, because the changes to getting stuff from HS>NS are going to work inversely as well, it is not an argument. It is a suggestion.

Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.




GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#491 - 2015-04-21 16:52:34 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch


What?

I think you are running out of sensible arguments. Sad
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#492 - 2015-04-21 16:53:21 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

Right because asking for some HS and LS anoms that spawn Highend yielding Ore is tantrum induced apoplexy. You haven't really read anything I posted have you? Other than the lines you chose to cherry pick.

Fun fact, i am not arguing against the changes which is probably why you don't think im making any arguments (because im not), I think they are good changes (not ideal imo but good)...I would just like to see Highends available to LS and HS in a limited quantity as well, because the changes to getting stuff from HS>NS are going to work inversely as well, it is not an argument. It is a suggestion.

Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.

Sure, I can list several.

  • The number of highends required to do manufacturing is so small that seeding them in highsec would cause the price to drop to the floor, making them utterly worthless.
  • Removing the only unique mining product from nullsec would cause nullsec mining to become completely worthless. This has negative effects for Sov 5.0, player density, and availability of "food" for PVPers.
  • Doing so would make highsec completely self-sufficient for T1 production, which goes against the Day 1 design philosophy, as well as CCP Fozzie's stated intentions.
  • JF dependency for nullsec would skyrocket due to highsec's superior acquisition costs, which is markedly against CCP's desires for nullsec.


The thing you don't seem to get is that highsec and nullsec can be tuned independently from each other. Buffing one area does not necessitate a buff in the other area, nor does a nerf in one area require a nerf to the other. This is not the iconic dream scene from Lorenzo's Oil. If this was even remotely the case, highsec incursions would have been castrated a long time ago.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#493 - 2015-04-21 16:56:51 UTC
Basically, it's okay if nullsec gets an advantage. Truly, it's fine.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2015-04-21 16:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrink Collie
Mario Putzo wrote:
Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.




But the Risk/Reward crutch is exactly why it exist. Why should someone in a .9 system be able to mine ABC rocks? If that was the case, everyone would just be better off mining in high-sec, which for the longest time is what most people did anyways until the recent changes in Phoebe and now this patch changed things. There needs to be a sufficient carrot for people to do mining activities in null sec, and these changes really help. However, if a similar carrot was also given to high-sec anoms, then most people would just resume doing their mining activities in highsec, like pre-phoebe. High-sec doesn't need another boost.
Mario Putzo
#495 - 2015-04-21 17:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

Right because asking for some HS and LS anoms that spawn Highend yielding Ore is tantrum induced apoplexy. You haven't really read anything I posted have you? Other than the lines you chose to cherry pick.

Fun fact, i am not arguing against the changes which is probably why you don't think im making any arguments (because im not), I think they are good changes (not ideal imo but good)...I would just like to see Highends available to LS and HS in a limited quantity as well, because the changes to getting stuff from HS>NS are going to work inversely as well, it is not an argument. It is a suggestion.

Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.

Sure, I can list several.

  • The number of highends required to do manufacturing is so small that seeding them in highsec would cause the price to drop to the floor, making them utterly worthless.
  • Removing the only unique mining product from nullsec would cause nullsec mining to become completely worthless. This has negative effects for Sov 5.0, player density, and availability of "food" for PVPers.
  • Doing so would make highsec completely self-sufficient for T1 production, which goes against the Day 1 design philosophy, as well as CCP Fozzie's stated intentions.
  • JF dependency for nullsec would skyrocket due to highsec's superior acquisition costs, which is markedly against CCP's desires for nullsec.


The thing you don't seem to get is that highsec and nullsec can be tuned independently from each other. Buffing one area does not necessitate a buff in the other area, nor does a nerf in one area require a nerf to the other. This is not the iconic dream scene from Lorenzo's Oil. If this was even remotely the case, highsec incursions would have been castrated a long time ago.


= In a limited capacity (anoms) the valuation would be entirely capable of being adjusted to keep valuation of the minerals reasonable. The changes to Ice mining have shown that limited conditional spawning mechanics does not impede on the valuation vs direct source mechanics.

= see above for an explanation on why this wouldn't be the case

= Doing so would not make HS any more self sufficient than pumping up Lowends does for NS, it is an improvement but limited conditions does not make HS instantly fully self sufficient. If this were the case then Gun mining would have been obliterated instead of simply nerfed.

= Why would JF dependency sky rocket? Unless of course folks in NS are not mining the ore available to them. If you have the ore right out your front door, why would you bother outsourcing for it...unless you simply do not want to mine it yourself.

Edit:

The thing you don't seem to get is that this change doesn't just adjust minerals for NS. It is adjusting production requirements for High End minerals as well. The markets are already well behind demand as it stands with highends, well all ore really (NS folks don't mine, or don't deliver to HS like they used to, and nerfs to gun mining) , doubling the amount required (regardless of initial volume needed) halves the supply instantly. Megacyte for example is currently at 25% supply vs demand. If this change happened tomorrow that supply becomes 12.5%. This portion of the change impacts every area of EVE, not just NS.

Honestly I couldn't care less if NS had unlimited ore and miners **** liquid isk, I do care that the market currently can not support demand, and that increasing the requirements further only makes this worse...not to mention again with JFs likely being nerfed in the future, supply becoming even less than it currently is. Without a source of Megacyte (and Zydrine) HS production will suffer, as will LS production (to a lesser extent). So please stop telling me what i am talking about, because its not about the ores in NS...its about the direct changes to production that impact us all.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#496 - 2015-04-21 17:13:14 UTC
the main reason that most alliance import ores for builds is simple

It takes time to mine.
most are too lazy to get a bunch of people to mine for a month to gather the lowends for 1 titan. the highends can be mined in the time It takes to haul the lowends from jita. but the bulky lowends take forever.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#497 - 2015-04-21 17:22:48 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

= In a limited capacity (anoms) the valuation would be entirely capable of being adjusted to keep valuation of the minerals reasonable. The changes to Ice mining have shown that limited conditional spawning mechanics does not impede on the valuation vs direct source mechanics.

= see above for an explanation on why this wouldn't be the case

= Doing so would not make HS any more self sufficient than pumping up Lowends does for NS, it is an improvement but limited conditions does not make HS instantly fully self sufficient. If this were the case then Gun mining would have been obliterated instead of simply nerfed.

= Why would JF dependency sky rocket? Unless of course folks in NS are not mining the ore available to them. If you have the ore right out your front door, why would you bother outsourcing for it...unless you simply do not want to mine it yourself.


Considering isotope values are in the toilet, I'll take that as an anti-example to your point.

You'll have to link the post in question for the second point, because I don't know to which post you refer.

You can't really make the third point and claim up and down that "nullsec has the lowends needed to build already."

JF dependency would skyrocket because the rapacity and utter safety of highsec would see all available highend bearing anomalies stripped by folks whose ability to understand an economic bargain compares unfavorably to people who buy lottery tickets. This causes the costs to race to the bottom, making highsec production much cheaper compared to nullsec. Thus, nullsec production slows/halts when people realize, hey, we can just JF this stuff in instead of building it and save a bundle.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#498 - 2015-04-21 17:27:01 UTC
Furthermore, I guess I don't understand this sudden outburst of people unhappy with the idea that highsec needs to get highends from nullsec. It always did! This part did not change, at all. Why is it so important now? Not only that, but the amount of highends needed barely increases your build costs, even with a sharp increase in price of highends.

The cynical part of my brain asserts that the answer to the question "Why is it so important now?" is "because a change is happening to nullsec that improves its quality of life; therefore, it must be snuffed out."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#499 - 2015-04-21 17:49:30 UTC
Querns wrote:
Furthermore, I guess I don't understand this sudden outburst of people unhappy with the idea that highsec needs to get highends from nullsec. It always did! This part did not change, at all. Why is it so important now? Not only that, but the amount of highends needed barely increases your build costs, even with a sharp increase in price of highends.

The cynical part of my brain asserts that the answer to the question "Why is it so important now?" is "because a change is happening to nullsec that improves its quality of life; therefore, it must be snuffed out."


It's reverse NIMBY.

And people being scared the low end will crash hard if you don't import a metric ass ton of them.
Mario Putzo
#500 - 2015-04-21 17:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:

Considering isotope values are in the toilet, I'll take that as an anti-example to your point.

You'll have to link the post in question for the second point, because I don't know to which post you refer.

You can't really make the third point and claim up and down that "nullsec has the lowends needed to build already."

JF dependency would skyrocket because the rapacity and utter safety of highsec would see all available highend bearing anomalies stripped by folks whose ability to understand an economic bargain compares unfavorably to people who buy lottery tickets. This causes the costs to race to the bottom, making highsec production much cheaper compared to nullsec. Thus, nullsec production slows/halts when people realize, hey, we can just JF this stuff in instead of building it and save a bundle.


= They are in the toilet because supply is crushing demand ever since Phoebe and Jump Fatigue. Prior to that the changes to Ice in HS were positive in increasing the valuation of Ice products. Compared to the old system where Ice never went away and people could "AFK mine" it all day long.

= The post was not a post it was the point i made right above (regarding the changes to Ice mining mechanics in HS).

= They do have them though, its just easier and less effort to import from highsec because there are more folks actively mining there. The changes don't actually fill a void, they just make it easier to get what you want and require less effort to do so, which are good. However I wager folks who can mostly guarantee a safe avenue will still source most of their minerals from HS...because again its easier and less effort to buy a million trit and stick it in a JF (even with fatigue), than mine a million trit.

= This is not a result of mechanics though, this is a choice of the person doing the production who would rather risk their 7B JF to get material from HS, that is available outside their front door. Even if the market tanked it has no bearing on dependency of JFs. Instead of supplying HS with highends, NS folks could just sit on their and use it for their own production. If people determine that the effort/result isn't worth their time to mine...then they can choose to import...i don't see what is wrong with that. Choice is always greater than requirement.



Querns wrote:
Furthermore, I guess I don't understand this sudden outburst of people unhappy with the idea that highsec needs to get highends from nullsec. It always did! This part did not change, at all. Why is it so important now? Not only that, but the amount of highends needed barely increases your build costs, even with a sharp increase in price of highends.

The cynical part of my brain asserts that the answer to the question "Why is it so important now?" is "because a change is happening to nullsec that improves its quality of life; therefore, it must be snuffed out."


Actually up until last year, you could source pretty much every highend you would ever need from gun mining. When CCP nerfed it the dependency on NS went up...and it is why the markets are the way they are right now in terms of High End availability. (and i made this argument then as well that mineral scarcity on high ends would become a thing...so this is not a new thing from me)

(and this also isn't about cost, because that would just get rolled into the final product sale price, simply about availability of the mineral itself)