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Another thread about jump changes and idea to fix it

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Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#21 - 2015-04-14 20:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
James Baboli wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Jump fatigue is fantastic.
Only way to improve it is to reduce the bonuses on industrials and covert ships.


i disagree with this, logistics needs to be done and moving stuff from jita to null would just become too much of a task, freighters need that bonus imo to keep the economy in nullsec and far away space

Or nullblocks could actually do sufficient paroling of their space to make it viable to mine and rat in reasonable safety, with a standing Combat space patrol group 2 or 3 jumps out at worst, and strong nodal defensive forces and eyes on everything a couple jumps out, with good reasons to pay attention to the stellar geography and size of systems, so you can actually have a viable environment for industry which doesn't need to be babied along, and which contributes sufficient ships to replace most t1 hulls and t2 mods used for fleet fights, meaning null is self sufficient without all the massive buffs people keep handing to their industry.........



Which is wonderful as long as all you use are t1 ships with t1 or meta modules.

All of those pesky t2 and t3 and faction ships and modules and implants and boosters and non racial isotopes and highsec only sourced charges, that people love to use are a wee bit harder to be able to locally manufacture than t1 ships.I suppose factions ships would work fine too since they can be imported in BPC form.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
No part of EVE is sufficiently self-sufficient to justify nerfing JFs yet. That's a thing we'd have to change before any further JF adjustments.


And "sufficiently self-sufficient" almost certainly the ability to locally manufacture t2 modules. T3 can be excused for needing WH's to import them since they come from WH's in the first place...

As implied in the quote, the instant people no longer absolutely require highsec JF runs to supply more than a few people with what we need for combat, that JF bonus is going in the trash heap. Until then though, it must stay.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#22 - 2015-04-14 20:38:31 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Jump fatigue is fantastic.
Only way to improve it is to reduce the bonuses on industrials and covert ships.


i disagree with this, logistics needs to be done and moving stuff from jita to null would just become too much of a task, freighters need that bonus imo to keep the economy in nullsec and far away space

Or nullblocks could actually do sufficient paroling of their space to make it viable to mine and rat in reasonable safety, with a standing Combat space patrol group 2 or 3 jumps out at worst, and strong nodal defensive forces and eyes on everything a couple jumps out, with good reasons to pay attention to the stellar geography and size of systems, so you can actually have a viable environment for industry which doesn't need to be babied along, and which contributes sufficient ships to replace most t1 hulls and t2 mods used for fleet fights, meaning null is self sufficient without all the massive buffs people keep handing to their industry.........



Which is wonderful as long as all you use are t1 ships with t1 or meta modules.

All of those pesky t2 and t3 and faction ships and modules and implants and boosters and non racial isotopes and highsec only sourced charges, that people love to use are a wee bit harder to be able to locally manufacture than t1 ships.I suppose factions ships would work fine too since they can be imported in BPC form.


Self sufficiency does not mean total autonomy, it means that without imports, it is still able to survive (if not thrive). Having t3s, boosters, implants, and empire faction ammo + mods as equivalent to luxury goods and foreign staples which are preferred to a local alternative (HACs, BCs and BS for t3s for PVP, and luxury goods for PVE t3s) seems to me like a reasonable balance of self sufficient but with a reasonable amount of trade. For pirate faction, you can import BPCs of things which don't drop in your space, and use a lot of what does. Empire faction stuff can be brought out as BPCs, rather than hulls, and/or modules if you chose to use a low bulk method of logistics for this. It wouldn't be quite as comfortable as having JFs flying everywhere every 2-3 days even during a failcading alliance's final weeks, but it is already possible within the game mechanics, without further buff or penalty.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#23 - 2015-04-14 21:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
James Baboli wrote:
Self sufficiency does not mean total autonomy, it means that without imports, it is still able to survive (if not thrive). Having t3s, boosters, implants, and empire faction ammo + mods as equivalent to luxury goods and foreign staples which are preferred to a local alternative (HACs, BCs and BS for t3s for PVP, and luxury goods for PVE t3s) seems to me like a reasonable balance of self sufficient but with a reasonable amount of trade. For pirate faction, you can import BPCs of things which don't drop in your space, and use a lot of what does. Empire faction stuff can be brought out as BPCs, rather than hulls, and/or modules if you chose to use a low bulk method of logistics for this. It wouldn't be quite as comfortable as having JFs flying everywhere every 2-3 days even during a failcading alliance's final weeks, but it is already possible within the game mechanics, without further buff or penalty.


I'd guess a very large majority of players would disagree that the staples for nullsesc should be t1 ships fitted with meta modules and t1 ammo. That the greatest reward for scraping and fighting to defend your little patch of nowhere is requiring difficult and lengthy logstics to import anything more complicated than a vexor with t1 valks.

And if things can't be imported in bulk, they can't be exported in bulk either. That means that you are stuck trying to export all the moongoo from deep nullsec through WH's, since you can't do anything with it out where you live. Bet that works well. Totally won't add even more reasons not to live on the outer edge of the game map to the many that already exist.

I think I'll credit CCP with enough savy about their playerbase not to cause everyone to abandon the outer regions because there's nothing worth fighting over, nobody to fight with, and the only thing you can easily fight with is sticks and stones.'
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#24 - 2015-04-14 21:48:11 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Self sufficiency does not mean total autonomy, it means that without imports, it is still able to survive (if not thrive). Having t3s, boosters, implants, and empire faction ammo + mods as equivalent to luxury goods and foreign staples which are preferred to a local alternative (HACs, BCs and BS for t3s for PVP, and luxury goods for PVE t3s) seems to me like a reasonable balance of self sufficient but with a reasonable amount of trade. For pirate faction, you can import BPCs of things which don't drop in your space, and use a lot of what does. Empire faction stuff can be brought out as BPCs, rather than hulls, and/or modules if you chose to use a low bulk method of logistics for this. It wouldn't be quite as comfortable as having JFs flying everywhere every 2-3 days even during a failcading alliance's final weeks, but it is already possible within the game mechanics, without further buff or penalty.


I'd guess a very large majority of players would disagree that the staples for nullsesc should be t1 ships fitted with meta modules and t1 ammo. That the greatest reward for scraping and fighting to defend your little patch of nowhere is requiring difficult and lengthy logstics to import anything more complicated than a vexor with t1 valks.

And if things can't be imported in bulk, they can't be exported in bulk either. That means that you are stuck trying to export all the moongoo from deep nullsec through WH's, since you can't do anything with it out where you live. Bet that works well. Totally won't add even more reasons not to live on the outer edge of the game map to the many that already exist.

I think I'll credit CCP with enough savy about their playerbase not to cause everyone to abandon the outer regions because there's nothing worth fighting over, nobody to fight with, and the only thing you can easily fight with is sticks and stones.'


Or locally building the t2 mods and ships with that moongoo. Totally can't build t2 stuff in nullsec with the moongoo you make in nullsec because *reasons* right?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#25 - 2015-04-14 22:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
James Baboli wrote:

Or locally building the t2 mods and ships with that moongoo. Totally can't build t2 stuff in nullsec with the moongoo you make in nullsec because *reasons* right?


https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tech_2_component_production

Yes. *Reasons* being that each region only has any significant levels of ONE R8 material. To put it in perspective how region locked R8's are, Feythbolis (my current region) has TWO Cobalt moons, FIVE Titanium moons, THREE Tungsten moons, and THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY NINE Scandium Moons.

Say a region only has Cobalt.

I can't make anything that requires Fernite, Titanium Chromide, or Rolled Tungsten, because each of those requires r8's that do not exist in the region.

That immediately removes every single t2 ship of the 3 races other than the local R8 moon type, because every single one requires large amounts of the racial defensive components that in turn require R8's you do not have access to.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

EACH MODULE REQUIRES T2 RACIAL COMPONENTS AS WELL!
GOSH DARN! NOW I CAN'T MAKE ANY OF THE MODULES THAT REQUIRE ANY RACIAL MATERIAL OTHER THAN MY OWN EITHER!

SORRY EVERYONE THAT'S NOT IN AN AMARR REGION, NO CAP CHARGERS FOR YOU!

SORRY NON MINMATAR REGIONS, NO T2 WARP DRIVES!

I'm really sorry my angry sarcasm is spilling everywhere, but it's fairly clear you know fuckall of what you are talking about, and are still acting as though you are an authority on the subject.

There's a reason very little local t2 production happens.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#26 - 2015-04-14 22:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
My bad. It seems as though I was mistaken about the requirements for t2 production on many modules.

T2 Microwarpdives require Gallente Ion Thrusters, Minmatar Plasma Thrusters, and Amarrian Antimatter Reactor Units.

I seems there are many modules that simply can't be built anywhere with one R8. Not even my previously mentioned Minmatar R8 region.
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-04-15 08:51:14 UTC
idea and thread derailed. please close
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#28 - 2015-04-15 21:32:43 UTC
VaL Iscariot wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
Reported as redundant without even bothering to read it...

Gotta love descriptive titles;)


i see the open discussion here in the features & ideas forum is vigorous and constructive


This is NOT the first time someone has had your idea, it was a terrible idea then and it is a terrible idea now... Fatigue is actually pretty much universally heralded as AWESOME... And yes, that means you do need to take gates instead of bridges some thimes...

Hence reported for redundant, its a discussion we've had and your version isnt "new" or "innovative" in any meaningful way so it'll still boil down to

"I WANT MAI SUPAR SPAMZ BAK"

"and i want a toilet seat made out of solid gold, but we cant have everything we want"

*cries some more*

"GG CRYMOAR"
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#29 - 2015-04-15 22:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
VaL Iscariot wrote:
idea and thread derailed. please close


Discussion is relevant and much more interesting than :capitals:

Anhenka has it right.

Incidentally T2 resource distribution being what it is has saved this game not only from dieing circa the year 2005/6, but also has been the reason for all of the conflict and bloodshed following the introduction of Tech 2, which saw four-fold increase in player PCU, culminating in the destruction of Band of Brothers alliance during the Second Great Eve war. Smile

http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Chapter 1 is closed, and we're in Chapter 2 currently, which is also at an end - the next one brings Chapter 1 repeat with intensity multiplied by 2.618033. Smile

Monthly income of 1.8 trillion ISK is enough to spark a major conflict - and that is only R64 Dysprosium. I just wish CCP would introduce/shuffle more resources in a similar manner, creating reasonable bottlenecks.

NICE REGION, WE'LL TAKE IT!

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Jenshae Chiroptera
#30 - 2015-04-15 22:31:47 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Jump fatigue is fantastic.
Only way to improve it is to reduce the bonuses on industrials and covert ships.
i disagree with this, logistics needs to be done and moving stuff from jita to null would just become too much of a task, freighters need that bonus imo to keep the economy in nullsec and far away space
I disagree and think that Null should be more self suffient.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#31 - 2015-04-16 03:27:29 UTC
Damn and people think the high sec carebears complain a lot. Nothing quite like the tears of a self entitled low/nul bear to make your evening complete.

Wondering if anyone has some really good cheese we can share?

This is just like the jump fatigue threads we had around here for so long. Let's take exception to one very small part of very large series of unfinished changes and complain about how it breaks "my portion" of the game.

As my son might say, put on the big boy pants, suck it up and deal with it. We can revisit this issue if needed once all the changes have happened.
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