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Acceleration, Aligning, and Warp Mechanics

Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-04-12 18:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
ergherhdfgh wrote:
another thing to note is that it's not 75% or your current max speed it's 75-105%. So if you are aligned with your MWD on and someone scrams and webs you so that your MWD turns off and your are now webbed and your current speed is 500% + of your max speed then you can not warp until you slow down to 105% or less or your max speed increases to get you in the 75-105% range.
I don't think there's a max speed to enter warp. At least it's definitely not 105%.

Anyone can test it: align, turn on mwd, wait a cycle or two, turn off mwd, hit warp as fast as you can as soon as the mwd shuts.

You'll see that you insta-warp, while moving much faster than your max base speed.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-04-12 18:11:34 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Pro tip 2: you are not lockable during that time plus some 2-3sec if you are not doing anything. Take that time to assess the situation and position your mouse over the right buttons, e.g. select target on overview and hover the align button.

EDIT: sorry, you are not lockable but can take damage from AOE weapons like smart bombs in your proximity.
Confirming this, and it's more than 2-3 seconds, I'd estimate 10.

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Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-04-12 18:12:36 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Question still stands - does it or does it not increase the physical collision sphere around the ship? vOv


It still stands, and is a good question. Honestly I'm very curious now if that's the case or not. I'll try a bit of testing when I'm on later.

Grrr.

Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#24 - 2015-04-12 18:17:06 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Azda Ja wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Azda Ja wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
In terms of the game engine each ship is a sphere.


As an aside, this also explains what a ship's "signature radius" is. It's not just nonsense words, it's actually referring to the size of your sphere, so a target painter increases the literal size of an opposing ship, as far as the server is concerned.


Does it now? Blink

Can you prove the increase in said sphere radius by collision detection?

Target painted Machariels are a Go!

You mean target painted MWDing Machariels are a go P.


Question still stands - does it or does it not increase the physical collision sphere around the ship? vOv

No, it doesn't.

Signature radius affects the gravity bubble of your ship,
which means that it will be easier to hit with turrets,
because everything shot at it easier "falls" onto the ship.

It does not affect collision, though, because ...
... how do I ......

If sigrad affected collision,
you could bump a mwd titan from so far away it would look stupid and ruin the game.

Same for every ship with big sigrad and mwd on.
As this is not being widely know,
which it would be,
we can safely conclude that sigradius does not affect collision.


:)
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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-04-12 18:17:55 UTC
Noctaly wrote:
I have however no idea how to calculate your 'aligning to the destination time'. Suppose I want to warp to something behind me. I will have to do a 180° turn. How much time will I need for it ? Since I am accelerating while aligning, how can I factor that into my "time to warp" formula ?
I have no idea how to calculate this :P

What I can tell you is:

1) if you're going max speed in the 'wrong' direction, turning 180° to warp in the opposite direction takes MUCH more time than aligning from a perfect standstill

2) ship mass and agility affect this: less mass and better agility (a smaller number) will make you turn faster. as others have said, an active AB or MWD increase mass and make things worse: turn them off for a quicker getaway :)

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#26 - 2015-04-12 18:19:34 UTC
Or the other way round.

You do not see ships which are close to a battleship
magically get bumped away just because it turns on it's mwd.


Sheesh, no offense, but it sounds like you don't actually play the game. :)
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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-04-12 18:19:57 UTC
Also: welcome back, Sol, I missed you.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#28 - 2015-04-12 18:24:04 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Noctaly wrote:
I have however no idea how to calculate your 'aligning to the destination time'. Suppose I want to warp to something behind me. I will have to do a 180° turn. How much time will I need for it ? Since I am accelerating while aligning, how can I factor that into my "time to warp" formula ?
I have no idea how to calculate this :P

What I can tell you is:

1) if you're going max speed in the 'wrong' direction, turning 180° to warp in the opposite direction takes MUCH more time than aligning from a perfect standstill

2) ship mass and agility affect this: less mass and better agility (a smaller number) will make you turn faster. as others have said, an active AB or MWD increase mass and make things worse: turn them off for a quicker getaway :)

This is half true.

Ships with an aligntime above the cycletime of a mwd actually benefit from it.
A mwd can as well lower your actual aligntime.
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Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#29 - 2015-04-12 18:24:52 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Also: welcome back, Sol, I missed you.

Awwww you are the only one who said that ..........................

Thanks.......... :/
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-04-12 18:30:24 UTC
Eve Solecist wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Also: welcome back, Sol, I missed you.

Awwww you are the only one who said that ..........................

Thanks.......... :/
But I'm sure I'm not the only one that thought so.

People should express their feelings, it's just... natural!

;)

(;

P

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Noctaly
Core Industry.
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2015-04-12 18:47:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Noctaly
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Anyway, if 1 AU is 150 billion meters, d is total warp distance (in AU), k is your warp speed (in AU/s) and y is your ship's max speed:

j is your deceleration speed, it's k/3 (a third of your warp speed), with a maximum (cap) of 2

1) time = ln (1 AU) / k seconds; distance = 1 AU (exactly, always)

3) time = ln (1 AU x k / y) / j; distance = k/j (this is exactly 3 AU, unless k > 6)

2) distance = d - 1 AU - the above deceleration distance (3 AU, unless k > 6); time = distance / k


For warps shorter than 4 AU, the formulas are different and I couldn't be arsed to calculate them :P

Those are very interesting formulas, thank you. But how did you conclude that the ship max speed (y) affect your decceleration time ?

Also if you try to write down a dimensional analysis for the second equation, you end up with a dimentionless result, not a result dpending of time :/

Last but not least, if you are using the AU value in meters, shouldn't you use the warp speed in meters / s aswell especially in equation one ?

Edit : I'll read this link (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/warp-drive-active) a bit more, I am sure I simply misunderstood your post due to forum formatting :)
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-04-12 18:58:43 UTC
Noctaly wrote:
Those are very interesting formulas, thank you. But how did you conclude that the ship max speed (y) affect your cruise time ?
It affects deceleration time. I put deceleration (3) before cruise (2) because to calculate cruise time you need to calculate cruise distance, and for that you need to calculate deceleration distance (though it's a fixed 3 AU if your warp speed is less than or equal to 6 AU/s)

Noctaly wrote:
Also if you try to write down a dimensional analysis for the second equation, you end up with a dimentionless result, not a result dpending of time :/
Hmm no, you have distance on top, distance/time below, so you end up with time! \o/

Noctaly wrote:
Last but not least, if you are using the AU value in meters, shouldn't you use the warp speed in meters / s aswell especially in equation one ?
I honestly don't remember why the 1 AU constant should be in meters! I think it depends on how CCP coded it... :)

Anyway, it works: it gives results consistent with this, except on short distances as I mentioned.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-04-12 19:09:47 UTC
Noctaly wrote:
But how did you conclude that the ship max speed (y) affect your decceleration time ?
Just saw your edit :)

Deceleration is a logarithmic thingy, so it would take an infinite time to declerate to zero. So you have to calculate deceleration to a non-zero speed.

I'm actually not sure if it's max speed, there was some speculation on this on the thread I mentioned, but I can't find it now :)

Could also be something like 50%, 25% or 10% of your max speed.

When you come out of warp, when your speed gauge (under your capacitor) starts showing numbers again, it looks like it starts around 25% or so, so maybe that's the correct speed... but luckily it doesn't change the results so much...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Noctaly
Core Industry.
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2015-04-12 19:11:58 UTC
I indeed made a mistake doing my analysis, I stand corrected, sorry and thank you !

Time to crunch more numbers now :)
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-04-12 19:22:05 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365281

There's the thread, have fun!

Also, the speed you have to decelerate to, to exit warp, should be 50% of subwarp speed or 100m/s, whichever the lower. Someone dug it up from an old dev post.

We're such a nerdy community!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Noctaly
Core Industry.
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2015-04-12 19:28:02 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365281

There's the thread, have fun!

Also, the speed you have to decelerate to, to exit warp, should be 50% of subwarp speed or 100m/s, whichever the lower. Someone dug it up from an old dev post.

We're such a nerdy community!


We are !

This thread is a mine of good information aswell. I'm gonna do maths, find wrong results, do it again and find it correctly :D

I would like to write a little function to calculate the exact time for warp including align time and warping time. You put me on the right track Big smile
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-04-12 19:46:56 UTC
Noctaly wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365281

There's the thread, have fun!

Also, the speed you have to decelerate to, to exit warp, should be 50% of subwarp speed or 100m/s, whichever the lower. Someone dug it up from an old dev post.

We're such a nerdy community!


We are !

This thread is a mine of good information aswell. I'm gonna do maths, find wrong results, do it again and find it correctly :D

I would like to write a little function to calculate the exact time for warp including align time and warping time. You put me on the right track Big smile

But don't forget exploding things Pirate

I'm my own NPC alt.

Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#38 - 2015-04-13 00:22:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost Greybeard
I know I'm a bit late with this and some of it's redundant now, but:

Collision radius, signature radius, and effective drag radius (expressed as top speed, but it affects your handling roughly like fluid drag on a sphere) are all independent variables. Collision radius is actually straight-up fixed, and altering the other two will not impact each other unless a specific module effect alters both.

Generally speaking your in-warp acceleration phases are going to be significantly shorter than the time required to hit your top warp speed, so in calculation terms you can take a stopwatch, hit warp to an aligned point at known distance, subtract the distance divided by your max warp speed, and add that as a flat number to every warp in that ship/fit.

There is no special "braking", only acceleration in the opposite direction of the one you're going in your frame of reference. The math is the same for "stopping" as it is for approaching non-zero fixed speeds in any other manner, turning, etc. Turning is a bit more complex, but not THAT much more complex if you convert your 'max speed' variable to a drag force in your calculation sheet.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2015-04-13 00:40:05 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
I don't think there's a max speed to enter warp. At least it's definitely not 105%.

Anyone can test it: align, turn on mwd, wait a cycle or two, turn off mwd, hit warp as fast as you can as soon as the mwd shuts.

You'll see that you insta-warp, while moving much faster than your max base speed.

I have and you don't and if you had before you'd posted you'd know that it's true. The 105% number I got, I believe, from jester's trek. If you don't believe me try it yourself but when you are aligned and going too fast with your MWD off you don't warp until you slow down enough.

The way that I discovered this was when I was aligned and above max speed and not warping and it took me a long while of research to find the cause.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2015-04-13 00:43:21 UTC
Azda Ja wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Question still stands - does it or does it not increase the physical collision sphere around the ship? vOv


It still stands, and is a good question. Honestly I'm very curious now if that's the case or not. I'll try a bit of testing when I'm on later.

Again I believe that I read this on jester's trek but I recall reading that your ability to decloak someone is based on your visual ship's size. The sphere thing I think is correct for everything else in game. I'm not a PvPer so I can't speak from experience but jester's trek did a how to for catching cov ops cloak ships when gate camping.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

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