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Looking for recommendations for a gaming PC

Author
Pippinpaddleopsicopolis Padocain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-04-11 09:47:10 UTC
Hey everyone,

I'm looking to buy a new gaming PC.

Naturally, I intend to purchase one that will allow me to play EVE with graphic settings optimized for quality and/or using several clients at once.

Any insight about gaming on Linux in general and playing EVE on a Linux desktop would be greatly appreciated.

o7, Pippin
Neuntausendeins
#2 - 2015-04-11 13:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausendeins
Grab a 4 core Intel i5 with a high clock rate and haswell cores (or wait a bit for prices to settle and go broadwell), a 2x4GB set of RAM modules, any recent nvidia *60 card, a mainboard that can fit those and a good brand PSU (Corsair, Enermax, ..., about 450W maybe - don't try to save money on the PSU). Get a decent ~256GB SSD if you want + a random 1TB hard disk, put that in a pretty case and you are good to go.

Why Intel? - High single core performance makes them king for gaming, no discussion!
Why i5? - Usually, the main difference between an i5 and its i7 counterpart is Hyperthreading, which more often than not doesn't do anything to gaming performance. It's definitely not worth the price difference.
Why nVidia? - It just works better with Linux. The open source AMD drivers with gallium are pretty awesome now, but they aren't quite there yet.
Why *60 - The *60 Segment has the best balance of price and performance for gaming in my opinion. Should be good for at least 2 years.
SSD or not? Totally up to you. Doesn't really affect game performance beyond the loading screen, but in general, having an SSD everything feels so much quicker, I personally wouldn't want to miss it. If you don't get an SSD, you may want to take a better look at the hard disk you buy.

Of course, the whole answer depends on your budget, but this is the baseline I would go from.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#3 - 2015-04-11 13:37:47 UTC
Just get a decent videocard.
Also SSD is nice. Especially with the new EVE storage system.

As for decent videocards, you should ask people around. About what they have and what works for them.

Generally speaking, NVidias with proprietary drivers should work reasonably well... Except each day I thank God for having an optimus laptop because I don't have to run my desktop on the NVidia chip. Because NVidia 2D performance, in my experience, was beyond horrible. I probably couldn't ever go back to the terribad scroll lags in firefox I had with the NVidia cards.

Personally I'd search for an AMD card that is confirmed to work well with opensource drivers.
Neuntausendeins
#4 - 2015-04-11 13:51:28 UTC
The AMD cards usually work well with the open source drivers. The problem is, radeonsi gallium drivers and wine are still somewhat experimental. Even if in theory your AMD card can provide as good performance as an nVidia card, it usually takes a good amount of fiddling around to get there. You will probably want to use bleeding edge mesa and radeonsi builds. This will change, as the radeon drivers are taking huge steps at the moment, but that's what I mean when I say, that they aren't quite there yet.
Jenny Starwolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-04-12 08:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenny Starwolf
My current setup is:
CPU: AMD FX-4300
GPU: Nvidia 650GTX
RAM: 16GB Corsair non-ecc 1667mhz
MB: Asrock 660-le gt
OS: Fedora 21 (Kernel 3.19.2-200)
WINE: 1.7.39

I run a single client at 75-80fps (same as native win)
I run 2 clients at 45-55fps (about 2% better than native win)
And 3 clients at 35-45fps (about 15% better than native win7)

If you are looking for multiple client optimizing, you REALLY REALLY REALLY want an AMD cpu, not an intel. Skipping all the horrible stability issues i've run into, Intel still uses the A64 emulation layer (they have to, intel core archetecture CANT support real 64-bit processing) which means you still hit a processing bottleneck on 64-bit programs and OS's. 64bit is the heart of modern multitasking, and only AMD chips can provide true 64-bit processing speed.
To support this claim: My friend who has 1 4-core i5 haswell with similar clock speed to mine, same L cache sizes, it's quite possibly the closest intel cpu to the fx-4300, runs one client at the same performance level mine does, runs 2 at the same level, but runs the 3rd and 4th about 4% slower, and the 5th is about 15% slower and it just gets worse from there. That's not counting if you have any background programs like TS, music players, steam, firefox/chrome, etc etc.

Another reason to go AMD instead of Intel is price, you can get a much highergrade AMD CPU for less money than a mid-grade Intel chip.

Also tho the AMD/ATI flgrx driver has made leaps and bounds in Linux lately, the Nvidia driver is still much much faster and more stable, not to mention Nvidia cards are as prone to overheating, and have (in most cases) more throughput with equal clock speeds.


My dream system would be:
CPU: AMD FX cpu (whatever the newest one is)
GPU: Nvidia 990
RAM: 32GB Corsair non-exx 1800mhz
HD: 256gb SSD+3TB HDD
MB: ASUS Sabertooth MX

You don't want to spend all your money on the SSD, get one big enough for the OS and your favorite few games, the rest can run off the 3TB HDD. As long as your OS itself is on the SSD, you'll notice a HUGE performance jump in load times and response time, even if the programs aren't on the SSD, just make sure you assign the Linux SWAP partition onto the SSD aswell.
Also, being Linux, you could store all your games on the 3TB (or whatever "storage" drive you want) and move the ones you want to play to the SSD and move others off back onto the storage drive, which is what I do. I have 4 games i play regularly, my OS and Steam on the SSD. I have room for 3 other games on here which i just move from the 3TB storage drive to my SSD when i want to play them.
Also you store all your movies, music, videos, pictures, etc on the storage drive, to save room.
Jenny Starwolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-04-12 08:59:36 UTC
Neuntausendeins wrote:
Grab a 4 core Intel i5 with a high clock rate and haswell cores
Why Intel? - High single core performance makes them king for gaming, no discussion!


Of course, the whole answer depends on your budget, but this is the baseline I would go from.


For a single or MAYBE 2 clients, I could agree, if it weren't for the outrageous price for an Intel chip, aswell as my experiance with stability issues (which may have improved, so we'll set that aside).

But they still run the A64 emulation layer as the Intel architecture simply CAN'T run a true 64-bit process core. (Intel even admited this a while ago)

Because of that, you still run into the emulation bottleneck. In an i5, granted playing eve on 1-2 clients you won't notice it. But if you run 3, 4 or even 5, you will start to notice a performance change between the i5 and it's amd counterpart. I have a FX-4300 clocked at 4.55gHz, my friend has an i5 clocked at 4.50 and running 2 clients he has equal performance to me, running 4 he has about a 4% drop and running 5 he has a 15% drop from my performance level.

Not to mention you can get an 4core FX chip clocked at 4.8-5.2gHz for the same as a 4core i5 clocked at 4.1, lmao.
Neuntausendeins
#7 - 2015-04-12 12:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausendeins
Admittedly, I only run 2 clients at a time and I am using an AMD FX-6200 @4GHz in my desktop machine, mainly because it proved to give much more bang for buck when it came to 3d rendering than any Intel out there at the time, mainly because that processor was dirt cheap, even back when I bought it 2 years or so ago. So, yes, when it comes to heavy multitasking, AMD offers quite good performance for the price. But for gaming in general and also Eve with those 2 clients, from my experience it sucks, compared to Intel performance.

I don't understand how Intels 64 bit processing works, but I don't see how IA64 would be a bottleneck anyway, since with eve you are running a 32 bit Windows game with a 32 bit wine binary and 32 bit graphics drivers. Everything related to playing Eve in Linux is 32 bits. Having played around with pure 32 bit linux, although it's been a while by now, I think, you could run the same setup you have with a pure 32 bit kernel and would hardly even notice a difference, even having to run with active PAE to address your memory beyond 4GB.
Jenny Starwolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-04-12 14:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenny Starwolf
Neuntausendeins wrote:
Admittedly, I only run 2 clients at a time and I am using an AMD FX-6200 @4GHz in my desktop machine, mainly because it proved to give much more bang for buck when it came to 3d rendering than any Intel out there at the time, mainly because that processor was dirt cheap, even back when I bought it 2 years or so ago. So, yes, when it comes to heavy multitasking, AMD offers quite good performance for the price. But for gaming in general and also Eve with those 2 clients, from my experience it sucks, compared to Intel performance.

I don't understand how Intels 64 bit processing works, but I don't see how IA64 would be a bottleneck anyway, since with eve you are running a 32 bit Windows game with a 32 bit wine binary and 32 bit graphics drivers. Everything related to playing Eve in Linux is 32 bits. Having played around with pure 32 bit linux, although it's been a while by now, I think, you could run the same setup you have with a pure 32 bit kernel and would hardly even notice a difference, even having to run with active PAE to address your memory beyond 4GB.

Because if you're running a 64bit OS, windows or Linux, even running 32bit programs will be faster (esp when running multiple ones) because the main benefit of 64bit vs 32bit is you're able to access twice the amount of RAM at the same time in 64bit. So, let's imagine a VERY VERY simplistic version of the situation.
Your processor handles 32bits of information per milisecond.
A 32-bit program requires the processor to process 32bits of information every 10 miliseconds.
Effectively, you could run 10 of these programs in parallel, all offset by 1-9 miliseconds, and see no change in performance vs having a single running. But you also have to take into account background tasks, the kernel, x-server, WINE itself, the list goes on.
A 64-bit processor can process that 32bits per milisecond TWICE per milisecond, effectively doubling it's speed.
Meaning when you're running multiple instances of a processor-heavy application (like a game, eve) you can effectively handle twice as many as you could with the same processor only running 32-bit architecture, but when running single, or low instance counts of the program, you may not see any performance changes at all.

Also, most 32-bit compatibility libraries for OpenGL (when installed on a 64-bit system) are designed to run multiple libraries in parallel to benefit from the 64-bit architecture, even if the program is only 32bit. I do notice a significant difference in performance when running 5+ clients at once if I run them through a 32bit wine binary and a 32-bit wineprefix, vs a 64bit one, because the 64bit wine binary is designed to call 64bit opengl files, but more importantly because the 64bit wine binary allocates the proper memory and processor times for optimal use of the 64bit architecture, even when the program it's running is 32-bit.

You're also forgetting tho eve IS a 32-bit program, it does have optimizations builtin to the program to detect when it's on a 64-bit OS which re-works several of the games call methods to run in parallel instead of sequence.


Now, having said all that if you're still even reading this by now, even tho intel's IA64 DOES run significantly faster than baseline 32bit processing, it still hits a bottleneck in the emulation layer because all of those 64bit calls, or 32bit calls that were run in parallel, have to still go through a single 32bit channel when leaving the processor.

Basically the way it works, is the IA64 layer receives a 64bit process string, but unlike a true-64 bit processor, it doesn't process that string in a single core, instead it splits the string and processes half of it in 2 separate cores (even in single-core IA64 processors there's 2 cores, yes), then once the process string is done in each core, it's re-united 'on the other side' and sent on it's merrily way. This in itself isn't the issue however, as this kind of string process emulation has been around for years and in itself is quite effective, but at the very end of the process when it is transmitted back out of the cpu, it's split yet again and each half of the 64bit segment is transmitted to the bus line 32bits at a time, where it is then AGAIN reunited and then sent to the destination. This is the problem.

To try and counteract this, most Intel compatible MB's have extra bus lines, to handle getting the split segments out of the cpu and to their destination faster, otherwise they would pile up in the bottleneck. It's a very inefficient way of doing things, but it's the only viable way Intel has to handling 64bit processing as the Intel core's base architecture was never designed to move beyond 32bit processing. Most benchmark tests you see of intel vs amd only take into account the amount of processes per second, the core speed, core sync, etc. They never take into account the extra time it takes for processes to reach their destination from the source once they leave the cpu, and while a few programs at a time isn't generally an issue for Intel, and it is still a solid CPU, when it comes to really CPU heavy multitask processing, nothing can stand up to the speed of a true 64-bit, no matter who makes the chip, and AMD is the only one with a true 64bit architecture.


The OP was asking for recommendations on a PC able to run multiple clients. Most people assume multiple means 2-3 at most, but more often than not people in EVE who have multiple accounts either 2, or 5+. The reason i recommend AMD so adamantly is because wether the OP wants to run 2 clients or 10 clients, the AMD platform would be more equipped to handle it, getting about equal performance on 2 clients, yet significantly better on 10 clients. Plus, cost, you can usually get a high-mid range AMD chip for the same as a low-mid range intel chip. (some exceptions, as always)
Pippinpaddleopsicopolis Padocain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-04-12 14:39:47 UTC
I'd like to thank everyone for their advice.
o7
Jenny Starwolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-04-12 14:47:33 UTC
Pippinpaddleopsicopolis Padocain wrote:
I'd like to thank everyone for their advice.
o7

There's also a Linux in-game channel you can join to get more immediate advice from people.