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PvE fatigue: Phoebe for PvE

First post First post
Author
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-04-09 11:57:23 UTC
Phoebe patch of EVE introduced a very unintuitive change: a direct nerf to PvP in order to increase PvP activity. Using the jump drive of a ship or taking a jump bridge placed a timer on the pilot that barred him from quick re-jumping. A fatigue was also introduced that penalized re-jumping in a moderate amount of time by increasing the next timer. As travelers could calculate with these timers and simply include AFK stops, this change intentionally hit hunters who wished to travel fast to catch their prey.

The straightforward result is less successful hunts, so less PvP. On the contrary, PvP increased in nullsec after Phoebe. The reason was that smaller entities dared to undock and fight as the threat of being squashed by huge entities diminished. They created lots of small encounters which outnumbered the few big hunts of the big ones, resulting in increased PvP activity.

PvE is in an even worse shape. PLEX prices nearly doubled in the past year, showing serious devaluing of time spent doing PvE. Why? Because multiboxing no-lifers and bots pour out ISK and minerals in ridiculous amounts. The casual player who could do PvE 1 hours a day with his one account is stomped by the no-lifers and bots who are "playing" 10+ hours with 10+ accounts. A casual miner can earn 20M/hour max in highsec, demanding 40 hours to get the ISK he could get by spending some real money for a PLEX. In the meantime a ratting botter gets his PLEX in a night while asleep.

Just like it was unreasonable to undock a solo carrier before Phoebe, it's unreasonable to undock a solo mining or ratting ship. The players who liked this aspect of the game had less and less reason to log in.

The solution is a Phoebe for PvE: making room for the countless little guys by stopping the few big guys to stomp them out. The PvE-fatigue should be introduced: if you are in combat with NPCs, running mining modules or using the PI interface, you accumulate fatigue which diminishes over time. If your fatigue gets over the limit, your DPS against NPCs and mining yield starts to diminish, penalizing continuation. After a high fatigue you are also locked out of PI interface. Since PvE alts are much cheaper to train than proper PvP pilots, the fatigue would be bypassed by alts, so needs to be account-wide. This way the no-lifer or botter needs to use extra PLEX-es to keep running.

Let's calibrate the fatigue to kick in after 1 hour/day farming - which is more than enough for a casual player if we want him to do other things than farming! Of course give enough buffer before penalties so he can spend all his weekly farming time on weekend. This way low-efficiency activities like highsec mining and battlecruiser bot-ratting would become unsustainable: if you can mine just 30 hours a month, you simply can't earn a PLEX. This would stop many farmers and would take the edge of multiboxing. Of course high-intensity activities like carrier ratting, gas mining or incursions would allow a good player to still go infinite.

The real result would be the same as with Phoebe. The PvP-er of a local small corp don't have to travel to use his carrier, so he is unaffected. The casual miner or ratter already pays for his account, and wouldn't PvE enough to get fatigue penalty so his PvE has no new costs. Without the insane competition of no-lifers and bots, his earnings would actually worth something and he'd be encouraged to continue.


PS: trading is PvP, please don't be the moron who suggest fatigue on setting/modifying orders!

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Null Infinity
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-04-09 12:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Null Infinity
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
if you can mine just 30 hours a month, you simply can't earn a PLEX.


TL;DR version: if player plays longer, than Gevlon Goblin allows him to play, CCP should punish him with some fartique or how is it called.

-1. Even -100.

New mining menthods: interactive mining and comet mining

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#3 - 2015-04-09 12:14:02 UTC
I dare everyone to ignore this an allow it to gracefully fall to the bottom of the forums.
El Creepo
Sex Machineguns
#4 - 2015-04-09 12:42:49 UTC
1bil for a £10 item is an EXTREEEEEEEMLY good deal. If I could cash out all my isk at 1bil per £10 cash I would be doing that all over the place. People need to stop crying at plex prices.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-04-09 13:58:17 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Phoebe patch of EVE introduced a very unintuitive change: a direct nerf to PvP in order to increase PvP activity. Using the jump drive of a ship or taking a jump bridge placed a timer on the pilot that barred him from quick re-jumping. A fatigue was also introduced that penalized re-jumping in a moderate amount of time by increasing the next timer. As travelers could calculate with these timers and simply include AFK stops, this change intentionally hit hunters who wished to travel fast to catch their prey.

The straightforward result is less successful hunts, so less PvP. On the contrary, PvP increased in nullsec after Phoebe. The reason was that smaller entities dared to undock and fight as the threat of being squashed by huge entities diminished. They created lots of small encounters which outnumbered the few big hunts of the big ones, resulting in increased PvP activity.

PvE is in an even worse shape. PLEX prices nearly doubled in the past year, showing serious devaluing of time spent doing PvE. Why? Because multiboxing no-lifers and bots pour out ISK and minerals in ridiculous amounts. The casual player who could do PvE 1 hours a day with his one account is stomped by the no-lifers and bots who are "playing" 10+ hours with 10+ accounts. A casual miner can earn 20M/hour max in highsec, demanding 40 hours to get the ISK he could get by spending some real money for a PLEX. In the meantime a ratting botter gets his PLEX in a night while asleep.

Just like it was unreasonable to undock a solo carrier before Phoebe, it's unreasonable to undock a solo mining or ratting ship. The players who liked this aspect of the game had less and less reason to log in.

The solution is a Phoebe for PvE: making room for the countless little guys by stopping the few big guys to stomp them out. The PvE-fatigue should be introduced: if you are in combat with NPCs, running mining modules or using the PI interface, you accumulate fatigue which diminishes over time. If your fatigue gets over the limit, your DPS against NPCs and mining yield starts to diminish, penalizing continuation. After a high fatigue you are also locked out of PI interface. Since PvE alts are much cheaper to train than proper PvP pilots, the fatigue would be bypassed by alts, so needs to be account-wide. This way the no-lifer or botter needs to use extra PLEX-es to keep running.

Let's calibrate the fatigue to kick in after 1 hour/day farming - which is more than enough for a casual player if we want him to do other things than farming! Of course give enough buffer before penalties so he can spend all his weekly farming time on weekend. This way low-efficiency activities like highsec mining and battlecruiser bot-ratting would become unsustainable: if you can mine just 30 hours a month, you simply can't earn a PLEX. This would stop many farmers and would take the edge of multiboxing. Of course high-intensity activities like carrier ratting, gas mining or incursions would allow a good player to still go infinite.

The real result would be the same as with Phoebe. The PvP-er of a local small corp don't have to travel to use his carrier, so he is unaffected. The casual miner or ratter already pays for his account, and wouldn't PvE enough to get fatigue penalty so his PvE has no new costs. Without the insane competition of no-lifers and bots, his earnings would actually worth something and he'd be encouraged to continue.


PS: trading is PvP, please don't be the moron who suggest fatigue on setting/modifying orders!


I still think that 800 Mio is still to cheap i would consider to buy a plex when the price would hit about 1400 mio. But thats my buisness. The Plexprice is a easy thing from those who want them and those who sell them. They can be manipulatet like every item ingame.

Multiboxing/ botting is not legal so if there is a big problem ccp would have to create security mechanisms.

And the highsec income should not be raised. We need players move to low/wh/0.0.

An no more timers. There are already to much.

And if somebody manage 10 accounts mining then he should also get 10 times more than someone who only manage one account, don´t forget he have to make 10 times more isk for plexing the accounts.

-1
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-04-09 19:18:20 UTC
Null Infinity wrote:
TL;DR version: if player plays longer, than Gevlon Goblin allows him to play, CCP should punish him with some fartique or how is it called.

Actually after the fatigue stopped you from mining and ratting, you can start playing EVE.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#7 - 2015-04-09 19:23:09 UTC
Thank you OP for a good laugh -1

In fact, instead of just limiting PVE activity, why not make it so the player has to declare a prime time in which they want to play, and they get a 4 hour window in which the servers will let them login to the game?

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Mario Putzo
#8 - 2015-04-09 19:46:38 UTC
Lol basing an argument using PLEX as a reference.

Oh wait, a Goblin post...nvm.
Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#9 - 2015-04-09 19:50:04 UTC
The OP lacks a reference to the Goonspiracy of nullsec driving Plex prices.

Came expecting Goonspiracy.
Too fatigued to be upset about it.
Also my four hour PvE window is about to expire so I need to haul some contracts, before my timer counter excludes the opportunity to EvP.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#10 - 2015-04-09 21:02:39 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Null Infinity wrote:
TL;DR version: if player plays longer, than Gevlon Goblin allows him to play, CCP should punish him with some fartique or how is it called.

Actually after the fatigue stopped you from mining and ratting, you can start playing EVE.


Well if all people would just stop yolo-carrier combat anomalies, EVE would become better at some point, but you are almost right.
Why should someone not living in dull-sec make isk to buy gear?

We should all have to answer to you, your highness and never undock again.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-04-23 18:39:56 UTC
I'd like to add the summary of what I wrote in a subsequent post. The ability to do low-intensity farming for extended times make one lazy. Instead of thinking to improve or compete for better farming sites, many-many just choose to farm more while watching TV or doing laundry.

EVE should reward the player being better and not letting his client run longer.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Iain Cariaba
#12 - 2015-04-23 18:42:54 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
I'd like to add the summary of what I wrote in a subsequent deleted link. The ability to do low-intensity farming for extended times make one lazy. Instead of thinking to improve or compete for better farming sites, many-many just choose to farm more while watching TV or doing laundry.

EVE should reward the player being better and not letting his client run longer.

Go peddle your blog somewhere else. If you have something to say on the eve-o forums, say it on the forums. Don't try to feed your link counters.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-04-23 18:53:09 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
I'd like to add the summary of what I wrote in a subsequent post. The ability to do low-intensity farming for extended times make one lazy. Instead of thinking to improve or compete for better farming sites, many-many just choose to farm more while watching TV or doing laundry.

EVE should reward the player being better and not letting his client run longer.


Rewarding active gameplay is NOT the same as limiting low effort activity. Im all for boosting active gameplay but im 100% against your suggestion
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#14 - 2015-04-23 19:10:43 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
I'd like to add the summary of what I wrote in a subsequent post. The ability to do low-intensity farming for extended times make one lazy. Instead of thinking to improve or compete for better farming sites, many-many just choose to farm more while watching TV or doing laundry.

EVE should reward the player being better and not letting his client run longer.


Directly punishes newbies who everything about the game is still cool and shiny by limiting their ability to make isk..
Especially as they haven't got the SP or player skills to run the higher intensity, better paying content.
Which mean that they are hard capped on a very low income, and must spend many days/weeks to be able to afford the sort of hangar needed to be able to move to dullsec as a PVPer, or to afford the skillbooks and ships required to do well paid content in low, or to blitz missions in High. Grats, you just pulled the rungs off the ladder into the actual community that plays eve.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Borat Guereen
ARRAKIS Ltd.
#15 - 2015-04-24 14:20:33 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
EVE should reward the player being better and not letting his client run longer.

Absolutely.

I would add also add that EVE, somehow, should not reward exponentially the multiplication of accounts controlled by the same players. This tendency occurs to the detriment of the casual or the more recent players.

Even if the idea is sound for your objective stated above, PVE fatigue would not really adress the benefits of accounts multiplication, much like the current fatigue does not affect a player with a lot of capital pilots accounts the same way that it affect a player with only one skilled capital pilot.

Candidate for CSM XII

Borat Guereen
ARRAKIS Ltd.
#16 - 2015-04-24 14:23:13 UTC
James Baboli wrote:

Directly punishes newbies who everything about the game is still cool and shiny by limiting their ability to make isk..

You are missing (obfuscating?) his whole point.

Much like PvP increases after capital fatigue, revenues from PvE would increase across the board, spreading the wealth to newbies doing PvE.

Candidate for CSM XII

Basil Pupkin
Strategic Incompetence
#17 - 2015-04-24 14:23:36 UTC
I don't like you, Gevlon.
I don't like ganktards, and you are one. At least not until Phoebe of ganking comes.
But I don't like bots either, and it hits them harder than it hits the players.

So I guess this proposal have a right to live... as a concept.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#18 - 2015-04-24 14:24:32 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

Directly punishes newbies who everything about the game is still cool and shiny by limiting their ability to make isk..

You are missing (obfuscating?) his whole point.

Much like PvP increases after capital fatigue, revenues from PvE would increase across the board, spreading the wealth to newbies doing PvE.

Mechanism?
As in, how does this push income up anywhere, for anyone?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-04-24 14:35:14 UTC
Could have sworn this drivel was locked yesterday.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-04-24 15:07:32 UTC
So, putting a time lock on how much players can enjoy their style if eve, yeah that'll keep people playing.

Less bulk miners = higher mineral costs, leading to more expensive ships and mods and higher plex prices. How does this help the single account player when multiboxers can just train more alts and just cycle through them?

Secret objectives complete? What's next ganker/hauler/market fatigue? How about graph and spreadsheet fatigue?

We get it: You hate eve. All you are doing is trolling players that make it what it is, and provide content JUST BY PLAYING in space.

You're still not winning at eve, but your wall of trollbait succeeded, kudos.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

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