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First impressions of a total newbie...
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Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#41 - 2015-04-04 22:24:17 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:

And FYI, even with everything you mentioned the actual act of one ship destroying another still boils down to DPS and HP.

Well, if you put it that way,

every combat ever fought in any game boiled down to dps vs HP.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#42 - 2015-04-04 22:44:58 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:
BUT, it's kind of unsatisfying that you can't, say, land a hit on say your enemy's railgun and disable/destroy it thusly.
Lots of people would like this - it is a reasonably common request. It would be interesting but difficult to balance. It would certainly require a major rebalance of the entire game unless it required a specific module to pull off (a subsystem targeter or something).

Anu Swaraj wrote:
And how exactly do you explain that a ship with disabled shields, utterly annihilated armor, and almost fully destroyed internal structures (that would be the ship's reactor, life support etc..) can still fire all of its guns, fly at full speed, and use all of its assistance modules like shield boosters and such.
Also true. But there are much more obvious problems with the mechanics, e.g. the fact that you slow down without continuous propulsion. See above regarding balance.[/quote]

Anu Swaraj wrote:
Also, I don't get the fraps comment. I haven't been killed yet, not that it matters. Nor did I come here for course in e-peen measuring.
This is nothing to do with 'e-peen measurement' but rather about what EVE actually is. CCP recently released some stats about new players and the ones that lost their ship in the first month were much more likely to get into the game than those that did not. There is a reason for that.

Anu Swaraj wrote:
And FYI, even with everything you mentioned the actual act of one ship destroying another still boils down to DPS and HP.
Not so. It is perfectly possible to kill a battleship in a frigate, for instance, by understanding the factors I mentioned and relying on manipulating them rather than raw DPS and HP.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#43 - 2015-04-04 22:53:05 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:
I haven't been killed yet, not that it matters.

Sure it does. You haven't played EVE until you heard that screeching noise and used the pod express.

Remove standings and insurance.
Ambrosse Brutus
Cyborg Infomorph Technologies
#44 - 2015-04-04 23:50:20 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:
Hello again...
Now, as for my opinion on the combat system,

It is misinformed. Here are a few questions to make you think.

How would you differ your approach when fighting a blaster ship vs an autocannon ship?

How would you take on a long range missile ship compared to an artillery ship?

How would you counter a specialised ECM ship?

That is a very small number of possible scenarios; compare that to the vast amount of possible ship fittings, and then multiply that again by an almost limitless amount possible configurations for a fleets composition.

When you can answer those simple questions I posted above, then you have just begun to scratch the surface of combat.

The thing you need to bear in mind is eve is a more high level tactical and strategic game in comparison to other games in which you are controlling individual weapon turrets and diverting shield from one area to another.

At high level you have more than enough to deal with for even the most competent pilots; try managing capacitor, shield, velocity, angular velocity, distance, alongside perfectly hitting with your weapons and offensive modules, all while your opponent(s) are doing the same back to you.

Watch this video if you want to see what can be done in purely solo combat (you'll need to watch it a couple of times to understand what is going on) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5Zblp9UHc
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-04-05 02:26:10 UTC
OP is partially correct in his analysis of combat, he just missed two key words.

Combat comes down to APPLIED DPS and EFFECTIVE HP.

Having a ship that cranks out 2k DPS means nothing if 99% of your shots don't connect, it also doesn't help much if you're firing lasers at something with >90% EM/Therm resists.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#46 - 2015-04-05 06:04:40 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:

With that said, I really don't like the fact that a cruiser that has just taken 800 railgun hits in the face, and has had most of its internal structure destroyed, still operates on the same level as an undamaged cruiser, meaning it has the same speed and maneuverability, and fully functional guns. There should be some sort of a penalty on the ship's performance when it has suffered such extensive damage.

Also, I dislike the fact that ships can fully repair any amount of damage done to their structure/armor/shields whilst in space.


Generally when people sustain structure damage they actually do not repair it in space, and must dock up to repair. Unless they are active structure tanked, which is incredibly rare... maybe even non-existent outside of joke fits. People usually fit only one type of repair module on any one ship - armor or shield. So as a shield tanked ship, I retain all armor damage and structure damage until I dock up. It doesn't effect my ship's performance like you want, it is just a reduction in total HP until I dock. But I think that is for the best. Having damage reduce your performance would just make the fight over with even quicker than it already is in this game. And it would take away the ability to bounce back, or to appear to be near death in order to bait people into fights. And there are already plenty of things to pay attention to in a PvP fight.

Then there are also buffer based fits that don't repair themselves at all. Particularly useful in a fleet setting when you have high incoming DPS and/or logistics ships on your side. Though there are also some ships that are effective in solo situations with buffer tanks as well. Shield-based buffer fits in particular, since they can end up with a decent passive recharge rate since shields work differently than armor/structure.

But since you've only done PvE so far, yeah, I can see why you want more to do. PvE in this game is generally terrible. Missions in particular are very boring. Combat exploration is more interesting at least because the loot drop will be random, and potentially very valuable, and you will often find yourself competing with another player. Incursions might also be a little more interesting to you, with different members of the fleet carrying out different roles. Target kill order is more important in incursions also. But to get into incursions as a newish player you'll need a well skilled logistics ship like a Basilisk or Scimitar. That is still 3 months training or so.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#47 - 2015-04-05 08:32:31 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:

And FYI, even with everything you mentioned the actual act of one ship destroying another still boils down to DPS and HP.


It doesnt when something that has significantly less HP and DPS can still win a fight with the right positioning.

The Drake is a Lie
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-04-05 08:33:57 UTC
... unfortunately PvE combat in EvE will teach you only 10% of what is required to stand in a real combat situation against other players, even the optimal fits and tactics are completely different.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2015-04-05 08:45:08 UTC
Zappity wrote:
You need to start exploding.


Not prematurely, of course.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Stacy Lone
Nirakura Inc
Decisions of Truth
#50 - 2015-04-05 09:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Stacy Lone
Anu Swaraj wrote:

- Combat system is way too straight forward and utterly lacking in depth. It basically boils down to a few numbers like DPS and Shield/Armor values. There's simply no "I've just landed a critical hit on the enemy's deflector, therefore, his shields are down. Fire EVERYTHING NAU!" kind of thing. It's kind of silly that a ship left on 10HP functions exactly the same as his undamaged counterpart i.e. individual modules like guns don't get damaged at all... I would also like to see more options in terms of evasive maneuvers and stuff like that.


This is just because you are inexperienced at PvP. Sure, in big fights or when you simply blob or gank there is not much depth to the combat.

But in small gangs, there is a lot of depth to the combat system.

I mean it comes down to range control - you need to stay in the proper range for your weapon system, you need to stay in range for your point or scram, you might need to stay in web range, you might need to stay in neut/nos range or might need to stay out of your enemies neut/nos or scram/web range, you might need to do capacitor warfare or place your ECM right or or or.

You need to keep an eye on transversal and absolute velocity to see when he tries to slingshot, either to get away from ou or to get a scram/web on you. If you are using ASB or fueled armor reps, choosing the proper time to start their reload cycle is paramount.

You need to switch ammo types based on range, but not too often because it takes time to reload. You may need to do drone warfare, either by kiting your enemy drones or maybe even disabling them.

tl;dr: there is actually a ton of things you need to watch out for and to do right in small gang / 1v1 situations.

It gets even worse when you fly a tech 3 destroyer. You'd also have to switch modes. at the right times...

Evasive maneuvers Do exist, bringing up your transversal is good against turrets, bringing up absolute velocity is good against missiles, escaping a scram allows you to use your mwd again to better dictate the engagement...
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#51 - 2015-04-05 09:41:27 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:
I haven't been killed yet, not that it matters.

that's like playing poker and saying you get it without having bet anything.
loss is a big part of eve.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#52 - 2015-04-05 11:00:42 UTC
OP isn't a newbie, why are ppl replying to this troll?
Iam The Flash
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-04-05 11:06:16 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:
Well, I may be a newbie in this game but I'm definitely not a newbie at persistent universe space exploration/devastation games...

I've been playing Elite on my 286 back in them good old days. Blink

Anyhou, I've just been playing for a few days but here are some of my mildly coherent thoughts...

Things that I like are as follows:

- Easy to learn controls
- Nice and huge universe, almost reminds me of the real one
- Decent tutorials and missions for new players
- Decent graphics and models, especially for such a small client
- Complex and diverse fitting options for each ship
- Different factions with different traits
- It's easy to make ISK, even for new players
- A multitude of career/game-play options for both PvP and PvE - missions, exploration, mining, trading or just doing random stuff
- Also, RAILS!

And a couple things that I don't like:

- Combat system is way too straight forward and utterly lacking in depth. It basically boils down to a few numbers like DPS and Shield/Armor values. There's simply no "I've just landed a critical hit on the enemy's deflector, therefore, his shields are down. Fire EVERYTHING NAU!" kind of thing. It's kind of silly that a ship left on 10HP functions exactly the same as his undamaged counterpart i.e. individual modules like guns don't get damaged at all... I would also like to see more options in terms of evasive maneuvers and stuff like that.

- I just can't except the fact that in a whole universe there is no option for peaceful exploration. Must every single anomaly, nebula or ancient relic be guarded by whatever ominous presence in form of Pirates-of-whatever-menacing-name...It just makes the whole exploration career look scripted rather than liberating.

- Some in game modules, like the Stasis Webifier for example, are more reminiscent of WoW/LoL spells, than a space game mechanic.

- I don't get why there are no point defense weapons for Battleships/Battle-cruisers (so they don't have to rely on silly WoW spells like the Webifier)

But, all in all, I think the game is great and I'm loving every minute of it.

Also, if someone could post a not-so-overly expensive Moa fit, I would appreciate it.

Gracias.


What a pile of crap, a brand new player talking about *complex* sets on eve, don't be stupid, just another alt fanboi trying to negate what ccp are doing. Whoever believes this drivel is an idiot
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-04-05 11:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Anu Swaraj wrote:

Things that I like are as follows:

- Easy to learn controls

What game are you playing?
Anu Swaraj wrote:

And a couple things that I don't like:

- Combat system is way too straight forward and utterly lacking in depth. It basically boils down to a few numbers like DPS and Shield/Armor values. There's simply no "I've just landed a critical hit on the enemy's deflector, therefore, his shields are down. Fire EVERYTHING NAU!" kind of thing. It's kind of silly that a ship left on 10HP functions exactly the same as his undamaged counterpart i.e. individual modules like guns don't get damaged at all... I would also like to see more options in terms of evasive maneuvers and stuff like that.

Uh, Thermodynamics, and manual piloting. I think that's what you're looking for.

Anu Swaraj wrote:

- I just can't except the fact that in a whole universe there is no option for peaceful exploration. Must every single anomaly, nebula or ancient relic be guarded by whatever ominous presence in form of Pirates-of-whatever-menacing-name...It just makes the whole exploration career look scripted rather than liberating.

Most data or relic sites are not guarded. Are you sure you actually tried exploration?

Anu Swaraj wrote:

- Some in game modules, like the Stasis Webifier for example, are more reminiscent of WoW/LoL spells, than a space game mechanic.

- I don't get why there are no point defense weapons for Battleships/Battle-cruisers (so they don't have to rely on silly WoW spells like the Webifier)

Considering that speed is arguably the most important stat in eve, and hesitate to agree with you on any level.


If you want to try any of the above in pve i recommend attempting to run level 3's in a corax or merlin. That should be the approximate difficulty you're looking for.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Gaellia Bonaventure
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2015-04-05 14:35:05 UTC
Anu Swaraj wrote:


- Combat system is way too straight forward and utterly lacking in depth.

Gracias.


That's because you're actually playing an economic simulator, and not an Internet spaceship game.

A lot of people make that mistake. And welcome! Big smile


Bring your possibles.
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#56 - 2015-04-05 14:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Eve Solecist
Hengle Teron wrote:
Anu Swaraj wrote:

And FYI, even with everything you mentioned the actual act of one ship destroying another still boils down to DPS and HP.

Well, if you put it that way,

every combat ever fought in any game boiled down to dps vs HP.
It's not true.

Way too shallow way of seeing it. It works logically, yes,
but it's a poor approach for going into combat.

In EVE we, as example to debunk this claim,
would have to take account for passive shield regen.
That would make the simplified version "dps vs HP+RegenRate".


"dps vs HP" is only then true when there are two entities
firing at each other non-stop, starting exactly at the same point in time,
without any passive regeneration or hell, dare I say, manouvering.

So then we'd have "dps / manouvers -> HP+RegenRate"

While it is true that you need damage to shoot down HP,
simply saying that it boils down to that is inaccurate, because it's superficial.



I guess that, what I'm trying to say ...
... is that too often seeing things "as simple as that" is actually way too superficial to be accurate.

It gives the impression that there is nothing more to it
and stops any possible occurances of further thinking before they even start.

"I didn't even consider it ..."
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#57 - 2015-04-05 14:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hengle Teron
Eve Solecist wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
Anu Swaraj wrote:

And FYI, even with everything you mentioned the actual act of one ship destroying another still boils down to DPS and HP.

Well, if you put it that way,

every combat ever fought in any game boiled down to dps vs HP.
It's not true.

Way too shallow way of seeing it. It works logically, yes,
but it's a poor approach for going into combat.

In EVE we, as example to debunk this claim,
would have to take account for passive shield regen.
That would make the simplified version "dps vs HP+RegenRate".


"dps vs HP" is only then true when there are two entities
firing at each other non-stop, starting exactly at the same point in time,
without any passive regeneration or hell, dare I say, manouvering.

So then we'd have "dps / manouvers -> HP+RegenRate"

While it is true that you need damage to shoot down HP,
simply saying that it boils down to that is inaccurate, because it's superficial.



I guess that, what I'm trying to say ...
... is that too often seeing things "as simple as that" is actually way too superficial to be accurate.

It gives the impression that there is nothing more to it
and stops any possible occurances of further thinking before they even start.

"I didn't even consider it ..."

Of course it's not true.

It's an overly simplified view and all I said in that view every fight is same.

And your point was exactly my point, but you need more words. :)
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#58 - 2015-04-05 16:58:58 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
Of course it's not true.

It's an overly simplified view and all I said in that view every fight is same.

And your point was exactly my point, but you need more words. :)
I knew you knew better, but I had to because you said it that way. ^_^
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Darth Terona
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#59 - 2015-04-05 23:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Terona
I may be a dollar shrt and a day late.. But webs can be explained as tractor beams.

Webs have a lot of various offensive and defensive applications.

The scenario the op mentioned about large ships deploying webs on small ships in order to track them is only one such application

You can use them offensively to hold your target at a specific range. Say your an Amarr pilot. Lasers don't track well at all at under 2k in my experience. A tormentor can employ a web in order to ensure his target holds at they golden range while maintaining a high enuff transversal for defense.

A kite ship can employ a web defensively to quickly burn off of a target that got too close for comfort.

In a rifter, if a battle goes **** up, you can use the web to disengage.

There is way more to combat than numbers. I can see where a new bro would miss that.. Or an F1 blob monkey

But if combat was only determined by ehp and DPS, there is no way a bantam could kill a wolf. Or a 6million isk punisher could kill a 400mil isk daredevil.

Just a couple of personal examples of mine. Also if you only look at numbers, and numbers where everything, there's no way a rifter should kill anything.. But thank ccp there is far more depth to combat than what seems.
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2015-04-05 23:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Niobe Song
Has anyone ever considered the fact that it isn't anything at all to do with the game that hinders player retention rather the attitude of the people on the forums.

New player comes along with some observations. Forum trolls crap all over him. Happens time after time.

It also amuses me to no end that the same people who rage against CCP endlessly on the forums will jump to their defense vs. a new player complaints or comments.

Next thing CCP should look at is how many people who left during the 2 week trial visited the forums.