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Rails did not need a nerf.
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Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-04-02 14:33:52 UTC
The only reason they're used more than arty and beams is solely because of the brutal fitting requirements for the other two long guns.

Example the rail rax is a very viable ship, whereas the Oman and Stabber cannot even fit snipers. not to mention minmatar ships are literally undergunned, battleships and cruisers get -1 gun and still have issues fitting arty.

there are other issues with the hulls these weapon systems are made for but this would be a good start.

Just drop the fitting reqs to sane level we might see arty, and beam fleets.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-04-02 14:41:22 UTC
Love my die most with rails, its just a bit of power creep, and might give CCP the idea to REALLY buff battleships.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3 - 2015-04-02 15:51:34 UTC
It was either nerf rails or buff almost all other med weapons, and i think with the current meta we already see far too many cruisers. It wasn't just between them and long range arty and beams (beams are terrible btw. so bad) but also compared to short range weapons they were almost doing as much dps. Rails are nowhere near being the worst offenders though: Drone boats are out of control in all sizes from frigates to HAC's: easy to fit, strong against most ewar, high dps, long range, effective against all sizes of target thanks to being able to carry and get buffs on every class of drone instead of just one class, utility highs which are effectively spare slots that other ships don't get because they need to put their dps in them...

Drone boats of all sizes are the problem, not just Ishtars, Drone boats in general should only get buffs to one size of drone even if they can still carry the others, AND where possible those buffs should adhere to the ships class. Also they should lose their high slots.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4 - 2015-04-02 16:31:36 UTC
They absolutely did need a nerf. They weren't just overpowered on the Tengu, the issue was not specific to one hull.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-04-02 16:31:59 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
It was either nerf rails or buff almost all other med weapons, and i think with the current meta we already see far too many cruisers. It wasn't just between them and long range arty and beams (beams are terrible btw. so bad) but also compared to short range weapons they were almost doing as much dps. Rails are nowhere near being the worst offenders though: Drone boats are out of control in all sizes from frigates to HAC's: easy to fit, strong against most ewar, high dps, long range, effective against all sizes of target thanks to being able to carry and get buffs on every class of drone instead of just one class, utility highs which are effectively spare slots that other ships don't get because they need to put their dps in them...

Drone boats of all sizes are the problem, not just Ishtars, Drone boats in general should only get buffs to one size of drone even if they can still carry the others, AND where possible those buffs should adhere to the ships class. Also they should lose their high slots.



Oh yes Drone boats are atrocious at the moment no argument there.

but yes rails did do great DPS, however they are sniper turrets, so they could easily be over tracked. they need cap so neuts wreak havoc on them, and they still need ammo. there are many ways to fight rails and honestly turrets in general need anything but nerfs.

and really close range guns that rails out damage are ACs and Pulse lasers.

pulse lasers have unmatchable projection for close range guns, and will easily out track rails, and the huls they go on are really strong, and suit the weapon system well.

Im not going to engage a pulse maller with a rail rax, unless I have a tackle support and could pull range and even then, mallers **** on tackle.

ACs well... have issues namely the hulls they're fitted to are awful in scram range for numerous reasons yet have a nonexistent optimal range, so they're effectively losing application and raw DPS the second the bullets leave the bore. but are supposed to be medium range weapons.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-04-02 16:44:54 UTC
Rails had too much dps and application for the ranges you could get out of them. CCP chose to nerf the dps slightly. you know a weapon system is strong when even WHers are using rail proteii over blaster proteii

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Mechanical Infidel
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-04-02 17:05:08 UTC
They were nerfed because the base weapon stats encroached upon medium beams dps which shouldn't be the case as it was inconsistent with every other weapon size.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#8 - 2015-04-02 17:49:44 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:



but yes rails did do great DPS, however they are sniper turrets, so they could easily be over tracked. they need cap so neuts wreak havoc on them, and they still need ammo. there are many ways to fight rails and honestly turrets in general need anything but nerfs.

and really close range guns that rails out damage are ACs and Pulse lasers.

pulse lasers have unmatchable projection for close range guns, and will easily out track rails, and the huls they go on are really strong, and suit the weapon system well.

Im not going to engage a pulse maller with a rail rax, unless I have a tackle support and could pull range and even then, mallers **** on tackle.

ACs well... have issues namely the hulls they're fitted to are awful in scram range for numerous reasons yet have a nonexistent optimal range, so they're effectively losing application and raw DPS the second the bullets leave the bore. but are supposed to be medium range weapons.


I dunno it's easy for me to say I don't have much skills invested in cruisers, but I will say they should have looked at them after the Ishatar/VNI problem was sorted because we don't know how much rail use was linked to their being too good, and how much was a reaction to the drone meta with people looking for fleet doctrines based on long range weapons that could counter them.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-04-02 19:13:50 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:

I dunno it's easy for me to say I don't have much skills invested in cruisers, but I will say they should have looked at them after the Ishatar/VNI problem was sorted because we don't know how much rail use was linked to their being too good, and how much was a reaction to the drone meta with people looking for fleet doctrines based on long range weapons that could counter them.


well to be fair rails are about the only weapon system that can compete with done boats, solely because beam and arty boats have to completely forgo any real tank to fit snipers, and have to fight drone ships which make no compromises on tank don't really care about range or size class, and hold their own in a straight up brawl.

I mean I can easily catch and Domi, Ishtar, VNI or Gila..... but then what?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#10 - 2015-04-02 19:17:36 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:

I dunno it's easy for me to say I don't have much skills invested in cruisers, but I will say they should have looked at them after the Ishatar/VNI problem was sorted because we don't know how much rail use was linked to their being too good, and how much was a reaction to the drone meta with people looking for fleet doctrines based on long range weapons that could counter them.


well to be fair rails are about the only weapon system that can compete with done boats, solely because beam and arty boats have to completely forgo any real tank to fit snipers, and have to fight drone ships which make no compromises on tank don't really care about range or size class, and hold their own in a straight up brawl.

I mean I can easily catch and Domi, Ishtar, VNI or Gila..... but then what?


All that means is that drones are still due for their nerf. Which just about falls in line with all of the dps and range charts listed.

Here is a good one.

That makes it abundantly clear.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#11 - 2015-04-02 19:53:31 UTC
Mechanical Infidel wrote:
They were nerfed because the base weapon stats encroached upon medium beams dps which shouldn't be the case as it was inconsistent with every other weapon size.


Of course, honey!

Since railguns and beam lasers are almost equal in how they operate, they should have even values on your holy dps measures..

But since I am in a good mood today, I'll educate you all once more free of charge in long range turret differences.

Railguns:

Long range turret with terrible tracking at closer (< 20km) range. But it is the only dps long-range gun.

Beam lasers:

Long range turret with very high fitting requirement and capacitor usage. Only very few actually know it's an alpha turret, no dps gun.
It has the best long range turret tracking.

artillery:
well i cannot say much about this one but minmatar pilots wont need much info on that one.

Okay kids, what have we learned today?

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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#12 - 2015-04-02 20:18:24 UTC
Yeah.. 250s needed to be dialed back a tad.





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Nalia White
Tencus
#13 - 2015-04-02 20:26:56 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Mechanical Infidel wrote:
They were nerfed because the base weapon stats encroached upon medium beams dps which shouldn't be the case as it was inconsistent with every other weapon size.


Of course, honey!

Since railguns and beam lasers are almost equal in how they operate, they should have even values on your holy dps measures..

But since I am in a good mood today, I'll educate you all once more free of charge in long range turret differences.

Railguns:

Long range turret with terrible tracking at closer (< 20km) range. But it is the only dps long-range gun.

Beam lasers:

Long range turret with very high fitting requirement and capacitor usage. Only very few actually know it's an alpha turret, no dps gun.
It has the best long range turret tracking.

artillery:
well i cannot say much about this one but minmatar pilots wont need much info on that one.

Okay kids, what have we learned today?


that you have no clue? :)

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#14 - 2015-04-02 20:42:12 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Yeah.. 250s needed to be dialed back a tad.






But less so 200s and not so dual 150s. CCP dont know crap about their own game Lol
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-04-03 00:30:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


All that means is that drones are still due for their nerf. Which just about falls in line with all of the dps and range charts listed.

Here is a good one.

That makes it abundantly clear.


actually based on this graph the only guns rails are out damaging are autocannons beams and arty

arty and beams have fitting issues, auto cannons have well....lots of issues. All Im say'n is, if we could actually fit the damn things we'd probably see the advantages the weapons systems bring to bare.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2015-04-03 07:34:20 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
The only reason they're used more than arty and beams is solely because of the brutal fitting requirements for the other two long guns.

Example the rail rax is a very viable ship, whereas the Oman and Stabber cannot even fit snipers. not to mention minmatar ships are literally undergunned, battleships and cruisers get -1 gun and still have issues fitting arty.

there are other issues with the hulls these weapon systems are made for but this would be a good start.

Just drop the fitting reqs to sane level we might see arty, and beam fleets.



the problem wasn't that they were used more than other long range systems but that they did nearly the same DPS as blasters over a much larger range


and it wasn't all rails just meds

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#17 - 2015-04-03 09:40:36 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:
But less so 200s and not so dual 150s. CCP dont know crap about their own game Lol


True, the smallest railgun should have a dps advantage over the smallest blaster in a class.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#18 - 2015-04-03 10:31:02 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:

actually based on this graph the only guns rails are out damaging are autocannons beams and arty


So, you know... everything in their weapon class.


Quote:
All Im say'n is, if we could actually fit the damn things we'd probably see the advantages the weapons systems bring to bare.



Read the graph again, they fitted a full rack of them on a Rokh, so these numbers are unbonused, unbiased, with equal slots used for each weapon.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-04-03 22:41:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:

actually based on this graph the only guns rails are out damaging are autocannons beams and arty


So, you know... everything in their weapon class.


Quote:
All Im say'n is, if we could actually fit the damn things we'd probably see the advantages the weapons systems bring to bare.



Read the graph again, they fitted a full rack of them on a Rokh, so these numbers are unbonused, unbiased, with equal slots used for each weapon.


yes everything in their class, I see nothing wrong with this. They don't have the tracking of beams or the alpha of arty, The only real issues those two weapon systems have is absurd fitting reqs.

and looking at the graph the only close range gun these weapon out damage are ACs which are really bad ATM.
Mario Putzo
#20 - 2015-04-03 22:49:44 UTC
Rails certainly needed to be scaled back slightly. The change made was mostly in the right direction, id have maybe gone a slight touch further. They simply crushed every other Medium Weapon type over 10K Range, and on some hulls could hit some pretty ridiculous ranges. (Sad RailFerox never took off more, oh well BCs suck is for another thread).

It wasn't even a close contest the only weapon system that was remotely comparable at range was Arties, and DPS wise Beams, Rails beat them both into the ground...and everything ***** on missiles over 5KM.
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