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[April] [Updated] Confessor and Svipul Balance Tweaks

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O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2015-04-14 04:58:00 UTC
does this mean no more 10mn AB T3 destroyers with crazy dps and reps? If so thank you!
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#302 - 2015-04-14 05:37:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
which is how we directly impact the power of oversized prop modules


ok but how about you just get rid of them entirely instead, they've always been full cancer


Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. There's plenty of room for the fitting of oversized prop mods to be an interesting and balanced fitting choice, as long as the benefits and drawbacks are in their proper place.



Yeah actually saying over and over does make it true, because we are the people still logging in and playing the game and experiencing what PVP is like now on a daily basis. Multiple classes are obsolete because of D3s and links are everywhere and a prerequisite for a decent chance at successful solo/small gang pvp; both of which combined have created one of the worst environments for solo and small gang PVP I've experienced in 3+ years. In the words of The Hound, "f- links, f- D3s, f- the king"
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#303 - 2015-04-14 05:49:17 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
which is how we directly impact the power of oversized prop modules


ok but how about you just get rid of them entirely instead, they've always been full cancer


Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. There's plenty of room for the fitting of oversized prop mods to be an interesting and balanced fitting choice, as long as the benefits and drawbacks are in their proper place.



Yeah actually saying over and over does make it true, because we are the people still logging in and playing the game and experiencing what PVP is like now on a daily basis. Multiple classes are obsolete because of D3s and links are everywhere and a prerequisite for a decent chance at successful solo/small gang pvp; both of which combined have created one of the worst environments for solo and small gang PVP I've experienced in 3+ years. In the words of The Hound, "f- links, f- D3s, f- the king"

I geuss oversized mods will be cancer in their entirety until CCP finally realizes how sadistically OP a 100mn Talos is.

Not really though.
Cade Windstalker
#304 - 2015-04-14 05:49:40 UTC
So, after doing some actual hard math (yay more Spreadsheets) I've got hard align numbers on the new Svipul and Confessor. All numbers assume All Vs skills unless otherwise specified. All numbers are rounded to one decimal place to correspond to EFT values.

Svipul

  • Base: 4.9 seconds (up from 4.7 seconds)
  • Propulsion Mode: 3.3 seconds (up from 3.1 seconds)
  • 10MN AB-Base: 21.3 seconds (up from 17.11 seconds)
  • 10MN AB-Propulsion Mode: 14.2 seconds (up from 11.4 seconds)
  • 1MN MWD-Base: 6.6 seconds (up from 6.0 seconds)
  • 1MN MWD-Propulsion Mode: 4.4 seconds (up from 4.0 seconds)


Confessor

  • Base: 5.1 seconds (up from 4.8 seconds)
  • Propulsion Mode: 3.4 seconds (up from 3.2 seconds)
  • 10MN AB-Base: 17.7 seconds (up from 14.9 seconds)
  • 10MN AB-Propulsion Mode: 11.8 seconds (up from 9.3 seconds)
  • 1MN MWD-Base: 6.3 seconds (up from 5.8 seconds)
  • 1MN MWD-Propulsion Mode: 4.2 seconds (up from 3.9 seconds)


Short summary (for anyone whose eyes just glazed over at that wall of numbers):

Both ships gained around 3 seconds of align on the 10MN AB fits with Prop mode active. For comparison that means the Confessor with a 10MN AB now turns like a Megathron with three 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates equipped (or about like the old Svipul), and the Svipul turns like a Megathron with twelve 1600 plates equipped (and yes I know that's impossible).

In practical terms this means you're going to lose a lot of velocity in an orbit, you're not going to be able to change direction quickly and consequently not be able to sling-shot anyone with a MWD fit, and a MWD fit Tactical Destroyer will run rings around one with an AB fitted, if not necessarily out-run one.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#305 - 2015-04-14 06:21:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone!
Big thanks to everyone who has posted feedback about the first round of changes. We agree with the point that some of you were bringing up, that these first round of changes are a bit too harsh on long range weapon fits compared to short range weapon fits. A certain amount of added fitting pain for long range fits will be necessary, but long range weapon viability is a key part of the character of the tactical destroyers and it would be a shame to limit that more than absolutely necessary.

So we've come up with a second iteration of these changes, using a slightly more invasive set of adjustments. To reduce the impact of extremely high fittings while continuing to keep long range weapons competitive with short range weapons we are proposing a change to the turrets of the Confessor and Svipul. Both would lose 2 turrets (going to 4) but gain a new +50% damage role bonus to keep DPS the same. This allows us to reduce fittings significantly without harming long range fits as much, as the weapons will make a smaller percentage of the overall Powergrid and CPU consumption of the ships.

These new versions also include a mass reduction for the Svipul (which is how we directly impact the power of oversized prop modules) and a bit more speed reduction. Material requirement changes remain the same as in version one.


    Confessor:
  • New Role Bonus: +50% Small Energy Turret Damage
  • Highslots: 6 (-1)
  • Turrets: 4 (-2)
  • Powergrid: 62 (-18)
  • CPU: 180 (-10)
  • Max Velocity: 235 (-45)
  • Mass: 2,000,000kg (-400,000)
  • Inertia: 2.7 (+0.55)
  • Shield Recharge Time: 800s (+175s)
  • Capacitor Recharge Time: 320s (+20s)

    • Svipul:
  • New Role Bonus: +50% Small Projectile Turret Damage
  • Highslots: 6 (-1)
  • Turrets: 4 (-2)
  • Powergrid: 59 (-19)
  • CPU: 205 (-10)
  • Max Velocity: 230 (-60)
  • Mass: 1,500,000 (-400,000)
  • Inertia: 3.5 (+0.85)
  • Shield Recharge Time: 800s (+175s)
  • Capacitor Recharge Time: 240s (+15s)

Material Requirements (unchanged):
+1 to each of Electromechanical Interface Nexus, Fullerene Intercalated Sheets, Optimized Nano-engines, Reconfigured Subspace Calibrator, Self-Assembling Nanolattice, Warfare Computation Core

Not so sure about making the confessor faster than the svipul. But these changes sure are interesting and I'm looking forward to fitting double neuts in the util. hi. slots. Twisted
Stunt Flores
Anime Masters
#306 - 2015-04-14 07:06:11 UTC
Did CCP ever consider possibly keeping the T3d's as is and adding a negative side effect while in certain modes?
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#307 - 2015-04-14 07:20:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone!
Big thanks to everyone who has posted feedback about the first round of changes. We agree with the point that some of you were bringing up, that these first round of changes are a bit too harsh on long range weapon fits compared to short range weapon fits. A certain amount of added fitting pain for long range fits will be necessary, but long range weapon viability is a key part of the character of the tactical destroyers and it would be a shame to limit that more than absolutely necessary.

So we've come up with a second iteration of these changes, using a slightly more invasive set of adjustments. To reduce the impact of extremely high fittings while continuing to keep long range weapons competitive with short range weapons we are proposing a change to the turrets of the Confessor and Svipul. Both would lose 2 turrets (going to 4) but gain a new +50% damage role bonus to keep DPS the same. This allows us to reduce fittings significantly without harming long range fits as much, as the weapons will make a smaller percentage of the overall Powergrid and CPU consumption of the ships.

These new versions also include a mass reduction for the Svipul (which is how we directly impact the power of oversized prop modules) and a bit more speed reduction. Material requirement changes remain the same as in version one.


    Confessor:
  • New Role Bonus: +50% Small Energy Turret Damage
  • Highslots: 6 (-1)
  • Turrets: 4 (-2)
  • Powergrid: 62 (-18)
  • CPU: 180 (-10)
  • Max Velocity: 235 (-45)
  • Mass: 2,000,000kg (-400,000)
  • Inertia: 2.7 (+0.55)
  • Shield Recharge Time: 800s (+175s)
  • Capacitor Recharge Time: 320s (+20s)

    • Svipul:
  • New Role Bonus: +50% Small Projectile Turret Damage
  • Highslots: 6 (-1)
  • Turrets: 4 (-2)
  • Powergrid: 59 (-19)
  • CPU: 205 (-10)
  • Max Velocity: 230 (-60)
  • Mass: 1,500,000 (-400,000)
  • Inertia: 3.5 (+0.85)
  • Shield Recharge Time: 800s (+175s)
  • Capacitor Recharge Time: 240s (+15s)

Material Requirements (unchanged):
+1 to each of Electromechanical Interface Nexus, Fullerene Intercalated Sheets, Optimized Nano-engines, Reconfigured Subspace Calibrator, Self-Assembling Nanolattice, Warfare Computation Core

Like I said above, thanks to everyone who has participated in this feedback thread so far. We're very interested in hearing your thoughts about this second iteration of the changes.


The whole point of the Confessor is the 10MN fit. It's simply not good otherwise. Three midslots is restrictive enough.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#308 - 2015-04-14 07:33:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

It'll differ from ship to ship, mainly depending on how big the mass difference is (pretty big in this case). At the end of the day we're more focused on getting an interesting variety of ships than in following any specific patterns rigidly.


I'll keep that in the quote vault if you try to make a Jackdaw that's half the size of the other, has twice the sig radius without any mods on, and yet manages to be slow and super heavy. Big smile

On a serious note though, I think that these updated changes are great!
Lessening the importance of weapons in the fitting by going from 4 to 6 is something very clever. You might want to take a look at the cap consumption of the Confessor though, and see if you are still good with it (since removing two turrets definitely changes said cap consumption).

Besides, I feel like the added inertia really favors long-range fits over brawling fits, even more so with 10mn on. And we all know that the long-range version should be equally viable on the confessor and svipul.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Ix Method
Doomheim
#309 - 2015-04-14 07:45:54 UTC
Two utility highs is a beautiful thing. Thanks for letting long range fits remain a thing *hugs*

Travelling at the speed of love.
Cade Windstalker
#310 - 2015-04-14 08:21:51 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
The whole point of the Confessor is the 10MN fit. It's simply not good otherwise. Three midslots is restrictive enough.


It seems to me that even with a MWD the Confessor (and the Svipul) bring an excellent mix of fitting space, firepower, and utility to the table and can easily threaten if not outright beat any ship fast enough to catch them, and if they are caught and pinned down they have more options to react in the form of their other two modes that other ships don't have access to.

In short, if these Tactical Destroyers aren't viable without a super roomy 10MN fit in your eyes, then what poor paupers must the rest of the T1 and T2 Frigates be to you? What?
Inggroth
Harbingers of Reset
#311 - 2015-04-14 08:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Inggroth
Had a quick look at the changes (w/o actually theorycrafting fits)
Looks p. good in my opinion! Cant wait for those to go live.

Hope you'll tune Jackdaw/Hecate accordingly.

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

[Svipul, Cancer 2.0]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Auxiliary Thrusters II
Small Ancillary Current Router I


So looking forward to 1-2 volleying those and similiar with a proper mwd/artillery fit
Cade Windstalker
#312 - 2015-04-14 09:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

[Svipul, Cancer 2.0]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Auxiliary Thrusters II
Small Ancillary Current Router I


Just realized, this fit doesn't actually work with the new changes. At the least it needs to drop a Neut and fit a 6% CPU implant. It could also drop the velocity rig for a CPU rig and a Gyro for a PDS2 or any number of other more extreme tweaks.

But as fitted there is no way, through implants, skills, or whatever, to make this fit work with the current iteration of the Svipul.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#313 - 2015-04-14 09:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

[Svipul, Cancer 2.0]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Auxiliary Thrusters II
Small Ancillary Current Router I


Just realized, this fit doesn't actually work with the new changes. At the least it needs to drop a Neut and fit a 6% CPU implant. It could also drop the velocity rig for a CPU rig and a Gyro for a PDS2 or any number of other more extreme tweaks.


Yes, I've mentioned a 18 CPU shortage, powergrid is fine. Smile Easy fix, however - faction scram/Gyro or IFFA in place of a gyro. I also like the fact that such setups still are possible, albeit at the cost of pretty much of everything else, especially requiring bling and/or fitting implants. With some shenanigans one could get 200mm ACs in there, CPU bottleneck is :bad: tho.

Cancer 2.0 Supreme. (づ￣ ³￣)づ

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#314 - 2015-04-14 10:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Liafcipe9000 wrote:

Not so sure about making the confessor faster than the svipul.


Aha. Roll

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Svipul 1MN MWD:

293 m/s base speed * (1+(6.25 MWD boost * (1,500,000 thrust / (1,500,00 shipmass + 500,000 MWD mass))) = 1,666 / 2499 OH m/s.

In Propulsion mode: 2766 / 4149 OH m/s. Big smile


Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Confessor 1MN MWD:

299 m/s * (1 + (6.25 MWD bonus * (1,500,000 MWD thrust / (2,000,000 shipmass + 500,000 MWD mass))) = 1424 / 2136 OH m/s.

In Prop mode: 2373 / 3560 OH m/s.

Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#315 - 2015-04-14 11:24:30 UTC
So, pve-confessor now got a salvager aswell? Neat. I know that's totally irrelevant.

I love about everything about having another utility high. For wormholes, I see glorious times of Asteros decloaking and RR-confessors ahead.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#316 - 2015-04-14 11:35:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
which is how we directly impact the power of oversized prop modules


ok but how about you just get rid of them entirely instead, they've always been full cancer


Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. There's plenty of room for the fitting of oversized prop mods to be an interesting and balanced fitting choice, as long as the benefits and drawbacks are in their proper place.


I'm yet to see oversized/undersized prop be an interesting and balanced fitting choice. it's always either useless or game-breaking, and I don't want to wait 3 years for you guys to do little fitting tweaks on absolutely everything, when you could just cut it out entirely.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#317 - 2015-04-14 11:45:24 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:

Not so sure about making the confessor faster than the svipul.


Aha. Roll

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Svipul 1MN MWD:

293 m/s base speed * (1+(6.25 MWD boost * (1,500,000 thrust / (1,500,00 shipmass + 500,000 MWD mass))) = 1,666 / 2499 OH m/s.

In Propulsion mode: 2766 / 4149 OH m/s. Big smile


Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Confessor 1MN MWD:

299 m/s * (1 + (6.25 MWD bonus * (1,500,000 MWD thrust / (2,000,000 shipmass + 500,000 MWD mass))) = 1424 / 2136 OH m/s.

In Prop mode: 2373 / 3560 OH m/s.

Smile


CCP ruining the balance on propless fits :[
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#318 - 2015-04-14 12:00:49 UTC
Regarding the assault frigates..

Maybe just a very minor change is needed.

They currently have a MWD bloom reduction of 50%.

Maybe make that 100%.

Yaay!!!!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#319 - 2015-04-14 12:02:09 UTC
Why not just tie a skill loss into the T3 Destroyers?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#320 - 2015-04-14 12:22:02 UTC
This t3d shows us the problem with assault frigs, its nice time to think about them and their niche in pvp.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.