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[April] [Updated] Confessor and Svipul Balance Tweaks

First post First post
Author
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#261 - 2015-04-13 22:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Svipul:
  • Max Velocity: 230 (-60)
  • Mass: 1,500,000 (-400,000)


  • Shocked

    Without taking mass changes into account, the new 1MWD speeds are 1,450/2,000 m/s and 2,400/3350 m/s in Prop mode.

    Don't know how to calculate mass-thrust relationship.

    These levels seem a lot more reasonable, than previously.


    With new mass taken into consideration:

    293 m/s base speed * (1+(6.25 MWD boost * (1,500,000 thrust / (1,500,00 shipmass + 500,000 MWD mass))) = 1,666 / 2499 OH m/s with 1MN MWD.

    In Propulsion mode: 2766 / 4149 OH m/s. Big smile
    Capqu
    Half Empty
    xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
    #262 - 2015-04-13 22:26:35 UTC
    props fozzlord this is pretty much exactly the balance pass i think these two ships needed

    now about the ishtar.........................................

    just kidding but heavy missiles need a bit of love
    Cade Windstalker
    #263 - 2015-04-13 22:26:39 UTC
    Bagehi wrote:
    Svipul still ends up being the more agile, higher dps, faster, more tanked ship of the two. Confessor was already a tight fit, the fitting changes seem to hurt the Confessor more than the Svipul, even though the Svipul seems the more dominant ship to begin with. Maybe I'm missing an in-game use where the Confessor deserved to be punished more than the Svipul?


    The Confessor doesn't have to try and fit 280mm Arty on three less base PG. Overall the Confessor is losing less in absolute terms than the Svipul is.
    Cade Windstalker
    #264 - 2015-04-13 22:29:02 UTC
    Definitely liking the new changes, and effectively gaining a High Slot opens up some interesting fitting options for both PvP and PvE. I wouldn't be surprised to see these ships show up even more in Exploration now and a Svipul with dual small NOS or Neut might be interesting as well.

    Much more give and take with these changes. Love it.
    Capqu
    Half Empty
    xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
    #265 - 2015-04-13 22:29:39 UTC
    honestly i personally think the confessor is stronger than the svipul but requires a lot more skill to use

    the svipuls true terror is the fact that anyone can hit approach and turn on their mwd and have a very good chance of winning against anything that isnt a svipul
    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #266 - 2015-04-13 22:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    Yolo,

    Quote:
    Svipul, Yolo]
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II

    Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
    'Orion' Tracking CPU I, Optimal Range Script
    Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
    F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script

    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]

    Small Projectile Collision Accelerator II
    Small Projectile Locus Coordinator I
    [empty rig slot]


    31+17km, 265 DPS, 1.5k Alpha, 4.1km/s OH in Prop.
    Ned Thomas
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #267 - 2015-04-13 22:37:38 UTC
    Ok, could someone be kind enough to tell me how the damage role bonus and the damage bonus from the tactical destroy level stack up?
    Capqu
    Half Empty
    xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
    #268 - 2015-04-13 22:39:52 UTC
    Ned Thomas wrote:
    Ok, could someone be kind enough to tell me how the damage role bonus and the damage bonus from the tactical destroy level stack up?


    multiplicative

    pretend the ship has 6 guns worth of damage and go from there
    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #269 - 2015-04-13 22:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    ChromeStriker wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:


    It'll differ from ship to ship, mainly depending on how big the mass difference is (pretty big in this case). At the end of the day we're more focused on getting an interesting variety of ships than in following any specific patterns rigidly.


    I love that your not thinking with blinkers on but im worried with all the recent balance changes we are losing the racial uniqueness of the ships....
    Theres so little gap between some ships you could mistake one for the other


    Whut? Puhhleeze. Have you seen my calculations with the new shipmass? Shocked

    And,

    Defense Mode:

    66.6% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty while Defense Mode is active

    P. racially-motivated, I'd say. Blink At least now, there will be actual benefit of the above bonus. Roll

    Ned Thomas wrote:
    Ok, could someone be kind enough to tell me how the damage role bonus and the damage bonus from the tactical destroy level stack up?


    Same exact DPS, same exact Alpha as before.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #270 - 2015-04-13 22:41:51 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    So we've come up with a second iteration of these changes, using a slightly more invasive set of adjustments. To reduce the impact of extremely high fittings while continuing to keep long range weapons competitive with short range weapons we are proposing a change to the turrets of the Confessor and Svipul. Both would lose 2 turrets (going to 4) but gain a new +50% damage role bonus to keep DPS the same.

    How will this affect the Caldari and Gallant T3 Destroyers?

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    Borat Guereen
    ARRAKIS Ltd.
    #271 - 2015-04-13 22:42:39 UTC
    Bagehi wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Alexis Nightwish wrote:

    Fozzie, it seems odd that the Amarran ship is faster than the Minmatar one. Is that intentional?


    There's a higher base speed on the Confessor, but the lower mass on the Svipul ensures that it's faster with prop mods on. High base speed but high mass to temper that speed is a feature of a lot of the Amarrian ships that we've rebalanced recently.


    But faster than a Minmatar ship? If memory serves me, Minmatar ships usually have a higher base speed as well as lower mass. Base speed for Amarr ships is usually a couple percent slower than Minmatar base speed for comparable ships.


    Unfortunately, this is a consequence of the exploitation by Amarr of Minmatar slave labor and skllset. Join the Minarchist Revolution, and help do something against this unsettling trend.

    Candidate for CSM XII

    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #272 - 2015-04-13 22:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    Wow, it seems, I'll have to do a calc for the Confessor as well to prove that Svipul is the faster one.

    Standby. Roll

    Confessor 1MN MWD:

    299 m/s * (1 + (6.25 MWD bonus * (1,500,000 MWD thrust / (2,000,000 shipmass + 500,000 MWD mass))) = 1424 / 2136 OH m/s, and 2373 / 3560 OH m/s in Propulsion mode.

    Smile
    Ned Thomas
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #273 - 2015-04-13 22:45:31 UTC
    Capqu wrote:
    Ned Thomas wrote:
    Ok, could someone be kind enough to tell me how the damage role bonus and the damage bonus from the tactical destroy level stack up?


    multiplicative

    pretend the ship has 6 guns worth of damage and go from there


    Gracias.
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #274 - 2015-04-13 23:01:53 UTC
    Two utility highs... Let's all say it together..

    Assault frigates... Rest in pieces.Shocked

    Yaay!!!!

    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #275 - 2015-04-13 23:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
    Much better changes overall, though there still isn't a reason to ever buy an AF or Interdictor (other than bubbles)

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #276 - 2015-04-13 23:03:59 UTC
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
    muuuuch better changes


    Just you wait.

    Must first fit 10MN... then calculate new thrust with this mass.

    Curious, Curious. What?

    Lol
    Ranamar
    Nobody in Local
    Of Sound Mind
    #277 - 2015-04-13 23:06:10 UTC
    Bagehi wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Bagehi wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Alexis Nightwish wrote:

    Fozzie, it seems odd that the Amarran ship is faster than the Minmatar one. Is that intentional?


    There's a higher base speed on the Confessor, but the lower mass on the Svipul ensures that it's faster with prop mods on. High base speed but high mass to temper that speed is a feature of a lot of the Amarrian ships that we've rebalanced recently.


    But faster than a Minmatar ship? If memory serves me, Minmatar ships usually have a higher base speed as well as lower mass. Base speed for Amarr ships is usually a couple percent slower than Minmatar base speed for comparable ships.


    It'll differ from ship to ship, mainly depending on how big the mass difference is (pretty big in this case). At the end of the day we're more focused on getting an interesting variety of ships than in following any specific patterns rigidly.


    Svipul still ends up being the more agile, higher dps, faster, more tanked ship of the two. Confessor was already a tight fit, the fitting changes seem to hurt the Confessor more than the Svipul, even though the Svipul seems the more dominant ship to begin with. Maybe I'm missing an in-game use where the Confessor deserved to be punished more than the Svipul?


    The confessor used to have enough grid to be able to squeeze on a 10MN MWD and a rack of gatling pulses if you filled the lows and rigs with T2 fitting mods. It's a hilarious single-purpose fit (to kill interceptors that aren't paying enough attention), but it made significant use of the fitting space that was provided to put beam lasers on. (It also beat out the Svipul for this because it was something like 15% more agile in speed mode.) I haven't run the numbers, but I assume one goal is to make a fit like that impossible.
    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #278 - 2015-04-13 23:07:12 UTC
    Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
    muuuuch better changes


    Just you wait.

    Must first fit 10MN... then calculate new thrust with this mass.

    Curious, Curious. What?

    Lol



    T2 10mn AB w/ nanofibre on Svipul in speed mode:
    2567 (3588) without implants or bonuses.

    T2 10mn AB on Confessor in speed mode:
    2259 (3144) without implants or bonuses.


    The most important thing to take away from this is that a tracking bonused Cruiser can now HIT these things more reliably when scram/webbed.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #279 - 2015-04-13 23:07:59 UTC
    Ranamar wrote:
    The confessor used to have enough grid to be able to squeeze on a 10MN MWD and a rack of gatling pulses if you filled the lows and rigs with T2 fitting mods. It's a hilarious single-purpose fit (to kill interceptors that aren't paying enough attention), but it made significant use of the fitting space that was provided to put beam lasers on. (It also beat out the Svipul for this because it was something like 15% more agile in speed mode.) I haven't run the numbers, but I assume one goal is to make a fit like that impossible.


    It still fits, and if you want to, you can squeeze a nos on there as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

    Aquila Sagitta
    Blue-Fire
    #280 - 2015-04-13 23:08:58 UTC
    I'm bad at maths so i just went in and changed pyfa's db. Nerf to speed isn't bad at all even tho its 25% on base velocity so it looks bad. Old Svipul fit was goin ~3450m/s new one goin 3231m/s with mwd