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[April] [Updated] Confessor and Svipul Balance Tweaks

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Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2015-04-08 09:32:40 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Confessor will be too tough to fit now imo, resulting in there only being 1 or 2 viable fits. Fair enough, reduce the power grid to dissuade the use of oversized prop mods but increase the cpu to open up some fitting option. This won't do much but it's something.


All of the strongest Confessor fits still fit, albeit with an extra PG rig resulting in less overall tank.

Frankly, I'd like to see the Svipuls grid NUKED to nothing and then it given a very large optimal bonus which basically results in 250s giving 280s range. That an a bigger speed/agility nerf.

Arty fits still work as intended, and nobody has absurd passive tanks.
Win win.



Isnt easier to just give ALL destroyers of all sized 50% reduction on weapon fittings, and reduce the PG of all of them to the same as normal frigates?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Inggroth
Harbingers of Reset
#202 - 2015-04-08 13:19:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Sivpul needs a tiny bit more PG cut but a role bonus to make arties cost less PG, so arties become a POSSIBILITY, without degeneratign in 10mn all the time.


280s are supposed to be hard to fit, right now you can fit 280s and MWD without any fitting mods/implants.
Thrasher needs 2 acr to do that if i'm not mistaken

A role bonus for arty fitting is something i'd be cool with though, if they dont overdo it
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2015-04-08 14:31:00 UTC
Inggroth wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Sivpul needs a tiny bit more PG cut but a role bonus to make arties cost less PG, so arties become a POSSIBILITY, without degeneratign in 10mn all the time.


280s are supposed to be hard to fit, right now you can fit 280s and MWD without any fitting mods/implants.
Thrasher needs 2 acr to do that if i'm not mistaken

A role bonus for arty fitting is something i'd be cool with though, if they dont overdo it



With the change they will be IMPOSSIBLE to fit without PG mod. No other minmatar ship besides the trasher abnormality needs PG moduels to fit JUST the arties.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#204 - 2015-04-08 17:41:51 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Inggroth wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Sivpul needs a tiny bit more PG cut but a role bonus to make arties cost less PG, so arties become a POSSIBILITY, without degeneratign in 10mn all the time.


280s are supposed to be hard to fit, right now you can fit 280s and MWD without any fitting mods/implants.
Thrasher needs 2 acr to do that if i'm not mistaken

A role bonus for arty fitting is something i'd be cool with though, if they dont overdo it



With the change they will be IMPOSSIBLE to fit without PG mod. No other minmatar ship besides the trasher abnormality needs PG moduels to fit JUST the arties.


Tornado and panther need one iirc.
Cade Windstalker
#205 - 2015-04-08 17:44:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you take everything into account, it's also much lower because there is no cap pool penalty on the AB. That penalty reduce your cap regen which is effectively "burned" because of the MWD.


Good point.

Freelancer117 wrote:
a 10mn speed module on destoyer because of oversized PG attribute should be intended, CCP is saying it is not, so remove it.


They're not saying anything like that. They're tweaking the power of the hull, they're not saying oversized prop mod fits are something they don't intend on these hulls.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
If oversized prop mods had so many issues, we (and other small scale high SP entities) would not be living under the norm.. oversized AB.. or stay home....


You are also entitled to your own risk/reward analysis, that you refuse to fight without certain advantages is not my fault or my problem Big smile
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#206 - 2015-04-08 18:47:40 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Inggroth wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Sivpul needs a tiny bit more PG cut but a role bonus to make arties cost less PG, so arties become a POSSIBILITY, without degeneratign in 10mn all the time.


280s are supposed to be hard to fit, right now you can fit 280s and MWD without any fitting mods/implants.
Thrasher needs 2 acr to do that if i'm not mistaken

A role bonus for arty fitting is something i'd be cool with though, if they dont overdo it



With the change they will be IMPOSSIBLE to fit without PG mod. No other minmatar ship besides the trasher abnormality needs PG moduels to fit JUST the arties.


Tornado and panther need one iirc.


Well panther grid is pretty terrible. Guess we will see where it is after blops rebalance (lol). 1400 nado is a fair compromise. Largest subcap alpha gun in the game should need a single PG rig to fit.

The problem with 280s is i already fit a PG rig to fit 280s on my svipul. Now i need 2? ACRs use a lot of calibration, meaning i have to sacrifice 3 rigs just to get the desired weapon system to fit. Or drop a low and use a RCU, which then means i need a CPU rig, ACR and RCU to make 280s fit using my current svipul fit.

That seems alil excessive to me. This is not a 10mn fit, but a 1mn mwd fit with a MASB as its only tank (no dcu).
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#207 - 2015-04-08 18:57:05 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/rd2ShWS.png

confessor has barely half the kill count of the svipul, making svipul #1 on the list (ishtar is #3 for comparison). I don't see why they both would have to be nerfed equally. If the grid nerf is set in stone.. so be it. But why also agility, speed and mass?


As an addendum to this post, the Confessor was released before the Svipul.
Cade Windstalker
#208 - 2015-04-09 03:22:47 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/rd2ShWS.png

confessor has barely half the kill count of the svipul, making svipul #1 on the list (ishtar is #3 for comparison). I don't see why they both would have to be nerfed equally. If the grid nerf is set in stone.. so be it. But why also agility, speed and mass?


As an addendum to this post, the Confessor was released before the Svipul.


That list is monthly, otherwise the Drake would *still* be number 7 or so and the kill totals would be in the millions.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2015-04-09 06:11:27 UTC
115,481 total Svipul kills
10,975 total Svipul loses
since release (mid-Feb)
20.2k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY HALF-MONTH

120,007 total Confessor kills
10,842 total Confessor losses
Since release (December)
9.5k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY FULL MONTH

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#210 - 2015-04-09 06:39:46 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
115,481 total Svipul kills
10,975 total Svipul loses
since release (mid-Feb)
20.2k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY HALF-MONTH

120,007 total Confessor kills
10,842 total Confessor losses
Since release (December)
9.5k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY FULL MONTH



is it possible to split the Svipul kills between Arti- and Autocannon fits?
because I have the feeling, that the low PG requirements of Autos is making the Svipul PG so powerful.
wouldn't be the first time that a PG big enough to make Arties viable makes the ship being a too good of an Autocannon platform.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#211 - 2015-04-09 09:06:34 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
115,481 total Svipul kills
10,975 total Svipul loses
since release (mid-Feb)
20.2k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY HALF-MONTH

120,007 total Confessor kills
10,842 total Confessor losses
Since release (December)
9.5k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY FULL MONTH



is it possible to split the Svipul kills between Arti- and Autocannon fits?
because I have the feeling, that the low PG requirements of Autos is making the Svipul PG so powerful.
wouldn't be the first time that a PG big enough to make Arties viable makes the ship being a too good of an Autocannon platform.


it would be if killmails weren't broken almost all the time, and if any of the killboards were any good
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2015-04-09 10:08:41 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
115,481 total Svipul kills
10,975 total Svipul loses
since release (mid-Feb)
20.2k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY HALF-MONTH

120,007 total Confessor kills
10,842 total Confessor losses
Since release (December)
9.5k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY FULL MONTH



That result is a bit skewed because of the min maxing behavior of players. If the svipul is 5% better than the confessor, that is enough for 90% of the high skilled and brain capable players to change to the svipul. That increases drastically its results. Because its win ratio is 2 times higher, does not mean it is MASSIVELY better than the confessor.

Also how many of those kills were frigates .. how many were battleships, hacs.. etc? I Would prefer a LOT a confessor to a svipul to fight against a vigilant for example. Raw numbers have useful info, but you need to analyse the effect on the player behavior to get a reasonable conclusion about them.


At end, the Arties needing TOO MUCH PG causes an issue where it is too easy to push a specific minmatar ship made to use arties into weird fittings.


The real problem is in the arties. They could all lose some 15% fittings and SOME of the ships then could lose a tad of PG (the ones that were clearly built to use arties and that are abused with AC (trashers and svipul basically) , others are already in hard place when using AC and there is no need to toucht heir PG (like tempest, munin)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Chrisfighter
Gladdebacher's
#213 - 2015-04-09 12:55:25 UTC
The -9 PG cut on the confessor is a little to much.
A change in -8 or -7 pg would be ok, just my two cents :)

Nur die harten kommen innen Garten, eh .... Eve xD

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#214 - 2015-04-09 19:21:14 UTC
Chrisfighter wrote:
The -9 PG cut on the confessor is a little to much.
A change in -8 or -7 pg would be ok, just my two cents :)


[citation needed]
Nightfox BloodRaven
Soul Takers
Pen Is Out
#215 - 2015-04-09 19:32:42 UTC
-9 powergrig is too much. Confessor is not as op as ppl think cap is tight.

but hey to all folks here..

CCP has made decision.. the rest is semantics.
They dont care what we think.
Fird
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#216 - 2015-04-09 21:36:11 UTC
Don't poop on the Svipul.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#217 - 2015-04-09 21:42:33 UTC
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:


CCP has made decision.. the rest is semantics.


This does seem to be the trend with these balancing threads. They are more early warning threads than actual feedback threads.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2015-04-10 00:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
115,481 total Svipul kills
10,975 total Svipul loses
since release (mid-Feb)
20.2k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY HALF-MONTH

120,007 total Confessor kills
10,842 total Confessor losses
Since release (December)
9.5k KILLS IN INTRODUCTORY FULL MONTH



That result is a bit skewed because of the min maxing behavior of players. If the svipul is 5% better than the confessor, that is enough for 90% of the high skilled and brain capable players to change to the svipul. That increases drastically its results. Because its win ratio is 2 times higher, does not mean it is MASSIVELY better than the confessor.

Also how many of those kills were frigates .. how many were battleships, hacs.. etc? I Would prefer a LOT a confessor to a svipul to fight against a vigilant for example. Raw numbers have useful info, but you need to analyse the effect on the player behavior to get a reasonable conclusion about them.


It doesn't take a genius to see that the Svipul is head and shoulders above the Confessor.
If you want to break it down by ship type or weapon usage month by month help yourself

The Confessor doesn't need help, and after the change it will be totally fine.
The Svipul is what needs a nerf.

If you want to keep its artillery ability then either nuke the cpu, the speed, or nuke the PG and boost the optimal bonus.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#219 - 2015-04-10 05:38:59 UTC
I call the agility and capacitor gimp an overnerf. Yeah, we know CCP doesn't like Caldari or Amarr very much so they listen to outcries from folks that have no business calling themselves educated.

Dail those overnerfs back, the Confessor doesn't need them. The whine-matar need a tad more nerfs.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#220 - 2015-04-10 05:45:49 UTC
Torei Dutalis wrote:
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:


CCP has made decision.. the rest is semantics.


This does seem to be the trend with these balancing threads. They are more early warning threads than actual feedback threads.



Not really true in the very recent past. iHubs and the Entosis Module had changes or things implemented based on player feedback in forum threads. We haven't seen an example in rebalancing yet though.