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Super Kerr-Induced Nanocoatings (SKINs) Feedback thread

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CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#141 - 2015-04-05 15:24:54 UTC
FistyMcBumBardier wrote:
Can we please do away with the concept of 30 day skins? They are in my opinion extremely limiting. I for one will not pay ISK for a SKIN that is on a timer.


Just because they exist doesn't mean we will use them on TQ. Again, many of those timed ones exist for China, which is a different server with a completely different market.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2015-04-05 16:08:16 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Hopefully marketing have either learned or have been replaced after all of this time.

If CCP wish to have a decent income, and a satisfied customer base, considering the main income they have comes from regular, repeat subscribers and customers, they will be best served by pricing these items at a "trivial" cost point, where everyone basically buys them.

We will see.


What I hope they learned from monocle-gate are useful lessons, which is not the lesson that you are implying.

The three big issues with monocle gate were

1) everything felt too expensive; the correct takeaway is NOT that nothing should be expensive, merely that a wide range of pricing/options should exist to fit all budgets (including all you poor people)

2) the cosmetics were targeted for a tiny, non-feature portion of the game no one really cares about, drawing focus away from actual spaceships

3) gold-ammo; obviously any hint of practical relevance was a huge issue, especially combined with pricing at the time... once again the correct takeaway is not that nothing should be expensive; on the contrary the more purely cosmetic the item the more expensive the upper price range can safely be...
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#143 - 2015-04-05 19:37:06 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
FistyMcBumBardier wrote:
Can we please do away with the concept of 30 day skins? They are in my opinion extremely limiting. I for one will not pay ISK for a SKIN that is on a timer.


Just because they exist doesn't mean we will use them on TQ. Again, many of those timed ones exist for China, which is a different server with a completely different market.


I would avoid any type of temporarily leasing Option. We're buying a pixel not a automobile.

Why China is setup that way... Dunno.

It should not be for here though. People like the concept of ownership and that this is "theirs" vs "this is rented".

Yaay!!!!
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#144 - 2015-04-05 20:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Joia Crenca
Phoenix Jones wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
FistyMcBumBardier wrote:
Can we please do away with the concept of 30 day skins? They are in my opinion extremely limiting. I for one will not pay ISK for a SKIN that is on a timer.


Just because they exist doesn't mean we will use them on TQ. Again, many of those timed ones exist for China, which is a different server with a completely different market.


I would avoid any type of temporarily leasing Option. We're buying a pixel not a automobile.

Why China is setup that way... Dunno.

It should not be for here though. People like the concept of ownership and that this is "theirs" vs "this is rented".




Very well put.

Actually, Microsoft has gotten me worried with rumors of thinking of putting the Windows OS on a 'rent'/subscription base. I suppose they don't realize that suddenly cutting off your computer also cuts you off of much of civilization in the 21st century. (example: job postings, schedules for local events, entertainment such as EVE, etc)

But one advantage to a 30-day timer for a skin, is if it's priced appropriately vs a permanent skin. The ship loss wouldn't be as painful if you'd paid isk-pennies for a 30-day vs isk-dollars for a lifetime.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#145 - 2015-04-05 20:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Well, I think, after a while of consideration, that I am against the idea of expiration skins bought for real moniez. Other games have permanent options even for items dropped in game and used in customizing looks. And even when these items are of lesser quality. SKIN of lesser quality dropped in game could be a SKIN that can be placed only on one ship and then it would be gone when ship is repackaged or destroyed, like in this current system of ship skins.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#146 - 2015-04-05 20:26:12 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So on the temporary SKINs topic: There are two reason for the existence of these. First and foremost some skins can drop from NPCs as loot. See police pursuit comet. If we were to drop a permanent skin the value of that as loot goes down over time and eventually it becomes just a worthless drop. Hopefully that makes sense.


There are ways to prevent that from happening.

1) Have a low drop rate of permanent skins. They still leave the game as players drop Eve, and there is always new demand as new players join. With a sufficiently low drop rate, they will stay valuable.

2) Have a way of combining several timed licenses into one permanent one. That way you can have a reasonable drop rate for those who like renting, but still cater to those who want to own.

3) Have both types drop

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#147 - 2015-04-05 21:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Terminus
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:

The basis for most micro transactions is to keep them as micro transactions. Nobody will go out and buy a 30 dollar skin.

Something like that. Can pick single options, or pick tons of skins.


Meh... I would totally pay $30 for a permanent skin, provided it was awesome and for a ship I use. I've spent more than that for cosmetics in other games. I agree that not EVERY skin should be $30, but a wide range of prices/exclusivity is fine by me.


It is interesting to see the "outliers" who are willing to pay such large amounts of money for such things.
It will be even more interesting to see if CCP decide that targeting such purchasers makes business sense.
It didn't go down well before, and is unlikely to now.

Hopefully marketing have either learned or have been replaced after all of this time.

If CCP wish to have a decent income, and a satisfied customer base, considering the main income they have comes from regular, repeat subscribers and customers, they will be best served by pricing these items at a "trivial" cost point, where everyone basically buys them.

We will see.


Like Lena Lazair pointed out previously, there were many reasons for monocle gate occuring, some of which being high price points on everything, the cosmetics targeted towards a non-gameplay portion of the game, and even the general anger at the Incarna expansion.

We would like to avoid retreading that path, so we are working on a plan for the pricing system which can help avoid this. I would like to restate that every single SKIN will be available on the in-game market for ISK if a player is willing to sell it. We know some of our player base dislikes paying for anything beyond the subscription (or in some cases even the subscription) and that is a completely valid viewpoint to take, which is why we've made sure it is an option for players to get everything in the game through the market.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#148 - 2015-04-05 21:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So on the temporary SKINs topic: There are two reason for the existence of these. First and foremost some skins can drop from NPCs as loot. See police pursuit comet. If we were to drop a permanent skin the value of that as loot goes down over time and eventually it becomes just a worthless drop. Hopefully that makes sense.


There are ways to prevent that from happening.

1) Have a low drop rate of permanent skins. They still leave the game as players drop Eve, and there is always new demand as new players join. With a sufficiently low drop rate, they will stay valuable.

2) Have a way of combining several timed licenses into one permanent one. That way you can have a reasonable drop rate for those who like renting, but still cater to those who want to own.

3) Have both types drop




Sorry, but... no to 1) and 2).

Think of the Besieged Facilities where these things currently drop... if you remove the drops from there (or make the drop rate 0,0000001%) then these sites become really worthless.

And about combining multiple temporary licenses into a permanent one - that just reminds me of that time when I spent 40 hours of my life in Silithus to slaughter like 3000 stupid scorpions to collect their crappy blood.

Actually one of the reasons why I sticked to this game in the last 5 years.

Having both types.... well, that MIGHT work. There is a market for both BPCs and BPOs.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#149 - 2015-04-05 21:37:28 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

It is interesting to see the "outliers" who are willing to pay such large amounts of money for such things.
It will be even more interesting to see if CCP decide that targeting such purchasers makes business sense.
It didn't go down well before, and is unlikely to now.

Hopefully marketing have either learned or have been replaced after all of this time.

If CCP wish to have a decent income, and a satisfied customer base, considering the main income they have comes from regular, repeat subscribers and customers, they will be best served by pricing these items at a "trivial" cost point, where everyone basically buys them.

We will see.


Well. Take me for instance. The monocle was bought from ISK, but I spent some money on merchandising items that included virtual items. We can now argue whether it does make a difference, because there were also physical items included, but that is not the point.
I estimate I spent like $100 on purely virtual cosmetic skins in League of Legends so far (which is completely free if you want to).
I think this is a good way to show support for the games you like AND it somewhat helps the problems a global subscription model faces when it comes to price points.

Depending on your job and the country you live in, the 11-15 €/$ charged monthly can be ridiculously low or HUGE.
I have spoken to EVE players who pay that from a monthly wage of equivalent €300.

That's why I think it is good if people can to a certain degree decide themselves how much they want to pay. There needs to be some stuff for those people that is at the same time completely irrelevant to the gameplay of those who do NOT want to spend that much.
(and even they can still get the stuff if they get spacerich)

CCP Terminus wrote:

Like Lena Lazair pointed out previously, there were many reasons for monocle gate occuring, some of which being high price points on everything, the cosmetics targeted towards a non-gameplay portion of the game, and even the general anger at the Incarna expansion.

We would like to avoid retreading that path, so we are working on a plan for the pricing system which can help avoid this. I would like to restate that every single SKIN will be available on the in-game market for ISK if a player is willing to sell it. We know some of our player base dislikes paying for anything beyond the subscription (or in some cases even the subscription) and that is a completely valid viewpoint to take, which is why we've made sure it is an option for players to get everything in the game through the market.


Monocle gate was completely ridiculous. And it happened despite all the items were available for ISK. People were just too busy raging to realize. Ugh
Dave Stark
#150 - 2015-04-05 21:38:52 UTC
not sure if it has been mentioned

but if you highlight multiple SKINs there's no option to activate all of them at once, you have to do it one at a time.
kinda annoying when you're trying to test them but meh... would just be nice to be able to activate multiple SKINs at once.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#151 - 2015-04-05 21:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Quote:
the 11-15 €/$ charged monthly can be ridiculously low or HUGE

That is why other games have more options for obtaining the items, and in EVE for ISK, in LOTRO you can get TP for making deeds in game. And the same skin could be made in two versions, low price 3 EUR for only frigate SKIN, or 13 EUR for permanent all ships SKIN.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#152 - 2015-04-05 23:41:20 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Daniel Fergus wrote:
It would be cool if we could preview the skins before we buy them.

I also hope that at some point we get kaalakiota skins.


You can do that now from the fitting screen, you can select skins you don't own and view them right there. We hope to also add this to the 3D preview of ships later



If you own that ship. I would love to see what the avatar looks like with the Khanid skin, but not owning an avatar I can't.
CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#153 - 2015-04-05 23:50:05 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Daniel Fergus wrote:
It would be cool if we could preview the skins before we buy them.

I also hope that at some point we get kaalakiota skins.


You can do that now from the fitting screen, you can select skins you don't own and view them right there. We hope to also add this to the 3D preview of ships later



If you own that ship. I would love to see what the avatar looks like with the Khanid skin, but not owning an avatar I can't.


So what CCP Foxfor was saying is that we hope to add the same features in the Fitting screen to the 3D Preview screen. This means you will be able to preview SKINs for ships you don't own, and even buy them (or link to the market) right from that screen if you wish.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#154 - 2015-04-06 05:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Would it be possible to add a window-in-window for a close-up view of your ship while zoomed out to see the tactical overlay? I like looking at my ship but it is impractical for my flying style where situational awareness trumps looks. I would use a little windowed view of my ship all the time and it would overcome common feedback about skins - i.e. that we don't look at our ships often enough for it to matter.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#155 - 2015-04-06 07:13:26 UTC
Request: Nugoeihuvi and Kaalakiota SKINs for Caldari ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#156 - 2015-04-06 09:19:36 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Irregessa wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Daniel Fergus wrote:
It would be cool if we could preview the skins before we buy them.

I also hope that at some point we get kaalakiota skins.


You can do that now from the fitting screen, you can select skins you don't own and view them right there. We hope to also add this to the 3D preview of ships later



If you own that ship. I would love to see what the avatar looks like with the Khanid skin, but not owning an avatar I can't.


So what CCP Foxfor was saying is that we hope to add the same features in the Fitting screen to the 3D Preview screen. This means you will be able to preview SKINs for ships you don't own, and even buy them (or link to the market) right from that screen if you wish.

T3 destroyer mode transition animations?
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#157 - 2015-04-06 10:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Its all fine and pretty but CCP, soulbound items in my EVE? Why are you going this path. I agree that loosing the skin on ship death is a bit harsh but there needs to be meaningful options to loose those licences.

Atm people will spawn them in Jita or apply them immediately. What you should ve done is that a skin can be changed only if its in the item hangar in station or in cargo if you want to change it while in space. So if a guy want to change his skins somewhere else he d need to bring them at that place.

You change in the station what skin you want to fly in and go out, or you bring it with yourself if you want to change it in space. It is still pretty safe but there are more risks involved than what is now. This solution is more EVE style and not soulbound items.

Hope you think trough this well.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#158 - 2015-04-06 16:12:08 UTC
Losing the skin when your ship exploded makes perfect sense to me. Its a paint job. Just as long as they are not stupidly expensive, anything below 200mil ISK would be ok for me.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#159 - 2015-04-06 16:55:07 UTC
My feedback: ardishapur paintjob is completelu unnoticeable. Feel free to fix in whatever way floats your boat.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#160 - 2015-04-06 19:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So on the temporary SKINs topic: There are two reason for the existence of these. First and foremost some skins can drop from NPCs as loot. See police pursuit comet. If we were to drop a permanent skin the value of that as loot goes down over time and eventually it becomes just a worthless drop. Hopefully that makes sense.


FistyMcBumBardier wrote:
Can we please do away with the concept of 30 day skins? They are in my opinion extremely limiting. I for one will not pay ISK for a SKIN that is on a timer.



I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, I disagree with Foxfour here (regarding the existing NPC dropped skins), because all of the ship skins that currently drop from NPC are worth very little now anyhow, so it is not clear that 1) making them permanent would make them "useless loot" anymore so than they are now, but also 2) it is not clear why it matters if they become extremely cheap. That might even help the new eden store sell more skins in the long run, insofar as players could buy NPC dropped skins for next to nothing and get a taste for what permanent skins are like, then buy more from the store.

On the other hand, I like that some ships are non-permanent but I don't like the timed version. My alternative suggestion (which probably goes beyond the dev time in the April release) is that non-permanent skins get attached to a clone, much like an implant (they could even be implants--slot 11, the cosmetic slot). That way, they are non-permanent insofar as people can still lose them, but they are also not on a timer and players can choose how risk averse they want to be with them.


~~~Also due to a misclick a long time ago I have like 15,000 AUR and my body is ready to buy every single skin you release just sayin~~~