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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#941 - 2015-05-25 12:27:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You're confusing "ISK" with "value". Or possibly "ISK in my wallet" with "total ISK in the game". Or maybe even both.

When your ganked freighter dies, even if it is uninsured, a hundred or so million ISK suddenly appear in your wallet that didn't exist before. The fact that you personally have seen your total NAV go down by a few hundred million ISK, doesn't change the fact that there are now more ISK in the game economy than there were were before your freighter 'sploded.

That's what an ISK faucet is. Suicide ganking is a large wealth sink: the value of assets removed from the economy will invariably be worth more, perhaps much more than any ISK created, but it's still an ISK faucet.


Bingo.

#deleteinsurance.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#942 - 2015-05-25 12:53:40 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You're confusing "ISK" with "value". Or possibly "ISK in my wallet" with "total ISK in the game". Or maybe even both.

When your ganked freighter dies, even if it is uninsured, a hundred or so million ISK suddenly appear in your wallet that didn't exist before. The fact that you personally have seen your total NAV go down by a few hundred million ISK, doesn't change the fact that there are now more ISK in the game economy than there were were before your freighter 'sploded.

That's what an ISK faucet is. Suicide ganking is a large wealth sink: the value of assets removed from the economy will invariably be worth more, perhaps much more than any ISK created, but it's still an ISK faucet.



Gankers minds = Blown

Congrats

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#943 - 2015-05-25 13:10:25 UTC
As i see it, all modules/ships destroyed are mined and produced by someone, who got the isk earlier from those (or if produced for your own use, then there were not really isk used except maybe in form of game time and blueprint).

And well each module or ship exploding increases miners and industrialists pressure to feed markets with more same stuff, that increases prices (of all things, even PLEX, as it reduces value of isk in rotation inside player created economy).

Think we should rather call that inflation (of isk).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#944 - 2015-05-25 13:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Actually there is ISK sink in destroying. I'm talking about FW LP stuff which needs ISK+LP to be bought and then has 0 ISK/LP insurance payout. Example: Caldari Navy Drake, Caldari Navy Warden/Wasp. For such things Eve client shows killmail with very low value and provides almost 0 LP of reward.

Other example: Gnosis. We got BPCs and we spent some ISK to manufacture the ship. And when Gnosis dies insurance returns few ISK Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#945 - 2015-05-25 15:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: 0bama Barack Hussein
March rabbit wrote:
Actually there is ISK sink in destroying. I'm talking about FW LP stuff which needs ISK+LP to be bought and then has 0 ISK/LP insurance payout. Example: Caldari Navy Drake, Caldari Navy Warden/Wasp. For such things Eve client shows killmail with very low value and provides almost 0 LP of reward.

Other example: Gnosis. We got BPCs and we spent some ISK to manufacture the ship. And when Gnosis dies insurance returns few ISK Lol


As i have also played FW, i understand your point.

But i dont really see the difference between LP/ISK from FW and minerals/ISK from mining, and as one can buy some LP products from store without isk (too).

When i calculate(d) worth of my LP, i also calculated in any ISK i would need to spent at LP store.

And i (still) saw the (FW) LP were Good.



EDIT: oh yeah, i don´t think killmail-values have any actual effect on being ISK sink or anything like that.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#946 - 2015-05-25 17:34:34 UTC
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Actually there is ISK sink in destroying. I'm talking about FW LP stuff which needs ISK+LP to be bought and then has 0 ISK/LP insurance payout. Example: Caldari Navy Drake, Caldari Navy Warden/Wasp. For such things Eve client shows killmail with very low value and provides almost 0 LP of reward.

Other example: Gnosis. We got BPCs and we spent some ISK to manufacture the ship. And when Gnosis dies insurance returns few ISK Lol


As i have also played FW, i understand your point.

But i dont really see the difference between LP/ISK from FW and minerals/ISK from mining, and as one can buy some LP products from store without isk (too).

When i calculate(d) worth of my LP, i also calculated in any ISK i would need to spent at LP store.

And i (still) saw the (FW) LP were Good.



EDIT: oh yeah, i don´t think killmail-values have any actual effect on being ISK sink or anything like that.



Wrong, because an item in the game has an isk value does not mean removing it removes the isk that was used to buy or the isk that was gained from the sale. All isk in this game came from CCP. All isk in this game is held by players. Isk is created when CCP gives you isk and it is destroyed if and only if you give it back to CCP. Sales of goods, mining ore, building things are all Player to Player transactions.

Yes the isk you spend on the FW store is sunk, but destroying the item you obtained is not an isk sink. It is not until the item has sunk the isk whether it was destroyed or not.

So again, Ganking is an isk faucet due to insurance, and there is no way around that.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#947 - 2015-05-25 17:51:10 UTC
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
As i see it, all modules/ships destroyed are mined and produced by someone, who got the isk earlier from those (or if produced for your own use, then there were not really isk used except maybe in form of game time and blueprint).

And well each module or ship exploding increases miners and industrialists pressure to feed markets with more same stuff, that increases prices (of all things, even PLEX, as it reduces value of isk in rotation inside player created economy).

Think we should rather call that inflation (of isk).

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#948 - 2015-05-25 18:04:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You're confusing "ISK" with "value". Or possibly "ISK in my wallet" with "total ISK in the game". Or maybe even both.

When your ganked freighter dies, even if it is uninsured, a hundred or so million ISK suddenly appear in your wallet that didn't exist before. The fact that you personally have seen your total NAV go down by a few hundred million ISK, doesn't change the fact that there are now more ISK in the game economy than there were were before your freighter 'sploded.

That's what an ISK faucet is. Suicide ganking is a large wealth sink: the value of assets removed from the economy will invariably be worth more, perhaps much more than any ISK created, but it's still an ISK faucet.


Does it become a sink if the gankee biomass?
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#949 - 2015-05-25 18:13:46 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You're confusing "ISK" with "value". Or possibly "ISK in my wallet" with "total ISK in the game". Or maybe even both.

When your ganked freighter dies, even if it is uninsured, a hundred or so million ISK suddenly appear in your wallet that didn't exist before. The fact that you personally have seen your total NAV go down by a few hundred million ISK, doesn't change the fact that there are now more ISK in the game economy than there were were before your freighter 'sploded.

That's what an ISK faucet is. Suicide ganking is a large wealth sink: the value of assets removed from the economy will invariably be worth more, perhaps much more than any ISK created, but it's still an ISK faucet.


Does it become a sink if the gankee biomass?


Only if gankee has any ISK or assets?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#950 - 2015-05-25 18:51:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You're confusing "ISK" with "value". Or possibly "ISK in my wallet" with "total ISK in the game". Or maybe even both.

When your ganked freighter dies, even if it is uninsured, a hundred or so million ISK suddenly appear in your wallet that didn't exist before. The fact that you personally have seen your total NAV go down by a few hundred million ISK, doesn't change the fact that there are now more ISK in the game economy than there were were before your freighter 'sploded.

That's what an ISK faucet is. Suicide ganking is a large wealth sink: the value of assets removed from the economy will invariably be worth more, perhaps much more than any ISK created, but it's still an ISK faucet.


Bingo.

#deleteinsurance.



Insurance serves several useful purposes, not the least of which is that it's a positive isk incentive to put yourself in ship loss scenarios.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#951 - 2015-05-25 19:28:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Insurance serves several useful purposes, not the least of which is that it's a positive isk incentive to put yourself in ship loss scenarios.


As an isk faucet, and a common one at that, the inflation it causes is very likely responsible for an equal or greater increase in ship prices. It's far simpler to have cheaper ships, than to have a less than meaningful choice like that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#952 - 2015-05-25 19:51:23 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Actually there is ISK sink in destroying. I'm talking about FW LP stuff which needs ISK+LP to be bought and then has 0 ISK/LP insurance payout. Example: Caldari Navy Drake, Caldari Navy Warden/Wasp. For such things Eve client shows killmail with very low value and provides almost 0 LP of reward.

Other example: Gnosis. We got BPCs and we spent some ISK to manufacture the ship. And when Gnosis dies insurance returns few ISK Lol


The ISK sink there is in creating the ship and that occurs whether this ship is destroyed or not.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#953 - 2015-05-25 19:54:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Insurance serves several useful purposes, not the least of which is that it's a positive isk incentive to put yourself in ship loss scenarios.


As an isk faucet, and a common one at that, the inflation it causes is very likely responsible for an equal or greater increase in ship prices. It's far simpler to have cheaper ships, than to have a less than meaningful choice like that.


Nope, because:

1) ISK inflation isn't a serious issue*, although it is more plausible that "mudflation" might be.
2) Even if it was there would be much better ways to address it, like eg: tilting mission payouts towards more LP, less ISK.
3) The amount of ISK spawned from insurance is negligible compared to that produced from ratting.



*That is to say, it wasn't the last time figures were presented, and I have seen no compelling reasons to suggest the situation has meaningfully changed.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#954 - 2015-05-25 19:59:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

3) The amount of ISK spawned from insurance is negligible compared to that produced from ratting.



Any way of transforming the income from ratting to not be raw ISK?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#955 - 2015-05-25 20:16:13 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

3) The amount of ISK spawned from insurance is negligible compared to that produced from ratting.



Any way of transforming the income from ratting to not be raw ISK?



ESS's do that already. But yeah there are plenty of conceivable ways to jigger with the ISK:wealth creation ratios that would be less harmful than dicking with ship insurance

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#956 - 2015-05-26 05:32:13 UTC
just reading all these comments on this thread is one of the main reasons the competition is getting spikes in players. I swear eve has became the retirement home for old folks. you guys rather debate than demand change.

I cant wait for the competition (ED, SC) to be full on live so then I can watch how you guys debate on how you failed.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#957 - 2015-05-26 07:07:42 UTC
Well yes that's me told good and properly, I mean when have I ever even tried to get anything changed in eve, let alone succeeded?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#958 - 2015-05-26 11:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You're confusing "ISK" with "value". Or possibly "ISK in my wallet" with "total ISK in the game". Or maybe even both.

When your ganked freighter dies, even if it is uninsured, a hundred or so million ISK suddenly appear in your wallet that didn't exist before. The fact that you personally have seen your total NAV go down by a few hundred million ISK, doesn't change the fact that there are now more ISK in the game economy than there were were before your freighter 'sploded.

That's what an ISK faucet is. Suicide ganking is a large wealth sink: the value of assets removed from the economy will invariably be worth more, perhaps much more than any ISK created, but it's still an ISK faucet.


Bingo.

#deleteinsurance.


Insurance as an ISK faucet is negligible in the grand scheme of things - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png

Tech 1 insurance was what made this game success in the first place. Sure, nowadays when everyone is making dank Incursion/Anoms/WH Blue Loot/FW ISK along with SRPs and can afford to welp HACs, it may be viewed through different light.

No insurance = Frigates online, but with an even lesser retainment of newer players than currently.

Malcanis wrote:


The ISK sink there is in creating the ship and that occurs whether this ship is destroyed or not.


That is correct - the ISK sink consists of the manufacturing job installation cost, the purchase of BPOs, blueprint research costs, if any, though copies neglect that, Sales & Broker fees to obtain, or sell the inputs needed for production, and the same taxes on obtaining, or selling the end product.

Durational Buy orders are subject to a Broker's fee.

Destroying only deletes the resources, thereby revaluing them, and not only due to constant demand, as more ISK is left in the system to chase the fewer quantities, until they are mined and/or obtained otherwise once again.

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
just reading all these comments on this thread is one of the main reasons the competition is getting spikes in players. I swear eve has became the retirement home for old folks. you guys rather debate than demand change.

I cant wait for the competition (ED, SC) to be full on live so then I can watch how you guys debate on how you failed.


No argument there. P

Eve needs Walking in Stations expansion to grow beyond the limits that spaceships provide, which have been reached first in 2011, then in 2013.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
Any way of transforming the income from ratting to not be raw ISK?


Cut the bounties, better loot tables. Smile

However, if CCP thinks that 25-30 Trillion per month* AFTER sinks injected is balanced against the resources that are being mined, salvaged, huffed or obtained otherwise, then it's balanced.

*Data from mid-2014
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#959 - 2015-05-26 11:49:29 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
just reading all these comments on this thread is one of the main reasons the competition is getting spikes in players. I swear eve has became the retirement home for old folks. you guys rather debate than demand change.

I cant wait for the competition (ED, SC) to be full on live so then I can watch how you guys debate on how you failed.


Think both ED and SC cater (mostly) to very different kind of player audience compared to EvE, they are games from cockpit (as just a starter about differences) and wont have as massive single battles (EvE used to have, not sure how new sov system will work in that), and EvE has also so deep and numerous player interaction with each others (in PvP and outside it) no other game seen yet.

If EvE will ignore it´s competition and focus on improving game and vision (of their strong points) they have now (instead of trying to emulate competition by example improving PvE that is in EvE actually just a means to fund PvP), i´m sure EvE will survive (even with smaller numbers, just as at early years).

Eve really has that core of faithful players (who will never leave, perhaps partly as they would have most to lose) in mostly null sec (and in PvP in general) and in trade/industry.
These (power hungry) people might have difficulties in ED to carve as an "independent mercenary" for themselves any significant area, as major (NPC) blocks (Empire, Federation and Alliance with some separate "weak" independent systems) have tens of thousands systems in control and settled in our huge Milky Way. Size of it all is just mind buggering. Few systems there and here wont make a difference in such huge galaxy. So in ED there wont most likely be any real possibility to get to "lead/control" any major alliance, that alone will put off some EvE players
In SC i see lot "same" as in ED (just much worse, so far), cant really prophecy how it is going to end up, but that "max. 150 systems" seems again to put pretty strict borders for any human coalition to gain any significant ground (unless each of those systems have hundreds of "points of interest" like stations).

So, EvE will survive, even grow again, as long as they know how to aim into that niche of (EvE and potentially EvE) players no other games serve just like their way (yet, if ever).
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#960 - 2015-05-26 11:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: 0bama Barack Hussein
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
just reading all these comments on this thread is one of the main reasons the competition is getting spikes in players. I swear eve has became the retirement home for old folks. you guys rather debate than demand change.

I cant wait for the competition (ED, SC) to be full on live so then I can watch how you guys debate on how you failed.


Think both ED and SC cater (mostly) to very different kind of player audience compared to EvE, they are games from cockpit (as just a starter about differences) and wont have as massive single battles (EvE used to have, not sure how new sov system will work in that), and EvE has also so deep and numerous player interaction with each others (in PvP and outside it) no other game seen yet.

If EvE will ignore it´s competition and focus on improving game and vision (of their strong points) they have now (instead of trying to emulate competition by example improving PvE that is in EvE actually just a means to fund PvP), i´m sure EvE will survive (even with smaller numbers, just as at early years).

Eve really has that core of faithful players (who will never leave, perhaps partly as they would have most to lose) in mostly null sec (and in PvP in general) and in trade/industry.
These (power hungry) people might have difficulties in ED to carve as an "independent mercenary" for themselves any significant area (even with hundreds of friends), as major (NPC) blocks (Empire, Federation and Alliance with some separate "weak" independent systems) have tens of thousands systems in control and settled in our huge Milky Way. Size of it all is just mind buggering. Few systems there and here wont make a difference in such huge galaxy. So in ED there wont most likely be any real possibility to get to "lead/control" any major alliance, that alone will put off some EvE players.
In SC i see lot "same" as in ED (just much worse, so far), cant really prophecy how it is going to end up, but that "max. 150 systems" seems again to put pretty strict borders for any human coalition to gain any significant ground (unless each of those systems have hundreds of "points of interest" like stations).

So, EvE will survive, even grow again, as long as they know how to aim into that niche of (EvE and potentially EvE) players no other games serve just like their way (yet, if ever).