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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Author
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#841 - 2015-05-20 17:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
To bad for you: EvE is not just a PvP game.Cool
While it may have PvE elements,


Trying to argue the amount of PvE down does not help you, not makes it your argument true.
There is a lot of PvE in EvE and its played by a lot of players.

Far more damage is done by missions and faction warfare than by hisec ganking.

CCP has to address both sides. CCP has recognised that and acts according.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#842 - 2015-05-20 17:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
La Rynx wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
To bad for you: EvE is not just a PvP game.Cool
While it may have PvE elements,

Trying to argue the amount of PvE down does not help you, not makes it your argument true.
There is a lot of PvE in EvE and its played by a lot of players.
Try reading the rest of it.

PvE only exists in Eve in the broadest sense of the word. The results of PvE generally end up on the market in one form or another, and with a mostly player controlled economy, that is PvP. The fact that you can't see this doesn't make it untrue.

Quote:
Far more damage is done by missions and faction warfare than by hisec ganking.
The only thing that proves is that people earn money by shooting at red crosses, and a lot of that is done to finance and facilitate PvP. It's a means to an end.

Quote:
CCP has to address both sides. CCP has recognised that and acts according.
On that I agree but theres a 90% chance it's for different reasons.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#843 - 2015-05-20 17:28:48 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Try reading the rest of it.

What?

I did not only try, i did.
Hint: It is not a question WHY PvE is in EvE, the fact is, that it IS a valid part of EvE.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#844 - 2015-05-20 17:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
La Rynx wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Try reading the rest of it.

What?

I did not only try, i did.
Hint: It is not a question WHY PvE is in EvE, the fact is, that it IS a valid part of EvE.
Where did I say it wasn't?

Being a source of finance to facilitate other activities makes it practically essential, the fact that some people do it for reasons other than the ones CCP appear to have included it for, doesn't mean that it requires working on to the detriment of the core game concepts.

They tried that already, WiS looked very much to a PvE oriented direction; look how well that went.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#845 - 2015-05-20 17:54:14 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
They tried that already, WiS looked very much to a PvE oriented direction; look how well that went.


We may never know, as they never delivered it. The CQ is a tech demo.

You need a better simile.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#846 - 2015-05-20 18:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I'm sorry but if the coalitions don't represent sov, what do they represent?

One coalition controls close to 46% of all sov, the other coalitions control about 50% between them. Leaving 4% or removal of existing established alliances for newcomers. As the new sov mechanics favour existing groups, it doesn't leave much room for new comers.
As the question was in regard to finding a place in nul where your not just going to get steamrolled, a coalition map showing which groups holds space where, is probably the best way to find relatively safe space.


Once NIPs are factored in the coalition map doesn't look so healthy.

That's not to say a lot more stuff isnt happening than before, but then it could hardly have got much worse. Plenty going on in the south nowadays, but nothing of note has happened in the north for years.

My hunch is that we still have the same number of actual players logging in, but with far fewer alts. A lot of people I know have been selling characters.

I agree, there is more activity than 12 months ago BUT that activity and Fozziesov does not open up opportunities for newcomers.

The nature of the mechanics (especially initial invulnerability and defensive indexes) is a huge barrier for newcomers.
The smart alliances have positioned them selves well to maintain their existence and possibly if the release of Fozziesov were to be delayed for another 2 or 3 months, you may see more new alliances jostling for a place. Once it is released, the barriers to establishing new sov become far higher.
Unoccupied sov will be relatively easy to flip but flipping sov is just the beginning and the existing groups are going to want as little competition (and as many killmails) as possible so will ensure they use their, currently fairly bored membership, to keep newcomers from getting so established as to become, competition.

The major problem with the new sov mechanics is the ability for blobs to dominate simply by using a blob. 1,000 or 2,000 member alliances could hold their own and win against equal numbers but those same groups will have no chance against the overwhelming numbers some of the existing groups can field.

This creates two problems, both of which limit the ability of new groups establishing sov;
1 - Smaller groups wanting to take sov will be faced with, going after space that is not close enough to the giant coalitions so all they become is content for a blob.
2 - Smaller groups will have limited opportunities not near the blobs and so are continually fighting to keep space every other small group wants. Not a bad thing;

BUT
Eve history continually shows one thing, bigger wins. So the small groups get bigger, to take the small amount of space available but by getting bigger that small amount of space won't support them, so they start pushing out the smaller guys around them by forming even bigger blobs.
A year from now the map may have a few new colours on it but the overall picture will be the same as now. As is now, no-one will "go to war" because they have nothing to gain but a lot to lose.

- - - - - - - -
Personally sold off 5 of mine and 3 are un-subbed, although I do log in daily with a couple of my remaining alts (manufacturing and market alts), actual game play is far from previous years.
The same amount of players with less alts still means less activity overall.

NB; A couple of tweaks to Fozziesov could make all the difference to how the sov map looks but that is where CCP drew the line. Being aware of the possible repercussions from a development group not in their employ that controls so much content must be hard to deal with.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#847 - 2015-05-20 18:42:50 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
They tried that already, WiS looked very much to a PvE oriented direction; look how well that went.


We may never know, as they never delivered it. The CQ is a tech demo.

You need a better simile.
True enough, I do need a better example.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#848 - 2015-05-20 19:22:12 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
"They" don't want more pve, EVE has plenty and most of it goes under utilized. What they want is for CCP to do for them what CCP has proven they aren't good at: they want to be told an interesting story, and be immersed in it. CCP isn't in the business of that, they are in the business of creating a backdrop in which you MAKE an interesting story that others can partake in.
I agree, especially the last part.

"They" don't get the idea of a sandbox, most other games give a structured story, cast you as a hero, feed you content and give you cookies, all of which are the antithesis of a sandbox.

Eve does none of those things and even steals your cookie then laughs at you for bringing it.

Icanchuck, and the "majority" they claim to represent, fail to recognise that other players are the ones who provide the heroes, the villains, the content and the stories; and that we, the players, can involve others whether they want to participate or not.

The story in Eve is not determined by CCP or the PvE content they provide, it is constantly evolving because it is written by us using the tools we're given.


And you just missed how many times I've asked, in this thread alone, that PvErs are given tools to:

- generate PvE content through NPC interaction
- unconsensually PvP other players through PvE

So, go back to square one. You know nothing of what I want.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#849 - 2015-05-20 19:37:36 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Try reading the rest of it.

What?

I did not only try, i did.
Hint: It is not a question WHY PvE is in EvE, the fact is, that it IS a valid part of EvE.
Where did I say it wasn't?

Being a source of finance to facilitate other activities makes it practically essential, the fact that some people do it for reasons other than the ones CCP appear to have included it for, doesn't mean that it requires working on to the detriment of the core game concepts.

They tried that already, WiS looked very much to a PvE oriented direction; look how well that went.

I don't see that improving PVE content should have to be to the detriment of "core concepts".

Which by the way are a "sandbox" - Fact is CCP have been steadily moving away from the "core concept" of the game for a few years now

Better PVE in lowsec would be a huge benefit to the "core concepts" of a true sandbox.

I wonder if those who believe TQ should be a giant PVP arena as the core concept realize how detrimental that would be to TQ.
I know a guy who has played eve for 7 years and his main character has probably not undocked more than 7 times. He does not PVP, has no interest in it but he is one of those players, without him, TQ would be a very different place.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#850 - 2015-05-20 19:38:58 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And you just missed how many times I've asked, in this thread alone, that PvErs are given tools to:

- generate PvE content through NPC interaction
I'm intrigued, please explain how that would work.

Quote:
- unconsensually PvP other players through PvE
Firstly that's already present, it's called selling your PvE rewards in a player driven economy, that said how would you go about expanding such a thing?

Quote:
So, go back to square one. You know nothing of what I want.
Given your posting here and elsewhere I have a fair idea, and I want no part of it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#851 - 2015-05-20 19:41:38 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
"They" don't want more pve, EVE has plenty and most of it goes under utilized. What they want is for CCP to do for them what CCP has proven they aren't good at: they want to be told an interesting story, and be immersed in it. CCP isn't in the business of that, they are in the business of creating a backdrop in which you MAKE an interesting story that others can partake in.
I agree, especially the last part.

"They" don't get the idea of a sandbox, most other games give a structured story, cast you as a hero, feed you content and give you cookies, all of which are the antithesis of a sandbox.

Eve does none of those things and even steals your cookie then laughs at you for bringing it.

Icanchuck, and the "majority" they claim to represent, fail to recognise that other players are the ones who provide the heroes, the villains, the content and the stories; and that we, the players, can involve others whether they want to participate or not.

The story in Eve is not determined by CCP or the PvE content they provide, it is constantly evolving because it is written by us using the tools we're given.


And you just missed how many times I've asked, in this thread alone, that PvErs are given tools to:

- generate PvE content through NPC interaction
- unconsensually PvP other players through PvE

So, go back to square one. You know nothing of what I want.


This is the lie you tell yourself. We do know what you want, you TELL us what you want, you even put it in your sig.
Quote:
73% of EVE characters stay in high security space. 62% of EVE subscribers barely PvP. 40% of all new accounts just "level up their Ravens". Probably that's why PvE content in EVE Online is sub-par and CCP is head over heels for PvP...


As for the rest, you can already do that. When Incursion fleets contest each other, we are unconsensually PvPing each other. When we race around (evne in high sec) scanning down sites and runnign them trying to kill the boss and scoop the loot before the other guy does, we non-consensually PvPing. When we race to market to get the best price for our deadspace or loyalty point store we are non-consensually pvping.

And when we do those things, we are making our own story. There is NO(THING stopping you from getting some folks on comms, making up a back story and living that experience while PVEing.

The problem is and always has been that you types want CCP to do this stuff for you while you keep yourself safe under the guns of magically spawning NPCs. In your zeal to do this you fail to understand that if CCP were to do this for you, they would by hurting those of us who PVE and don't need CCP hand holding.

That's why nothing you say gains any traction with the actual PVE community , we don't need CCPs help or your advocacy, we're doing fine, and CCP is slowly feeding us new content anyways (lately the Drifters and Anomic Base missions) The "problem" is your unrealistic desires, not CCP having a pvp focus.

If making your own PVE content was important to you i can make you 6 games where that's possible right now, I've played all 6. But that fact that you spend your time in a sandbox pvp game with famously non-thempark PVE whole banging your head against the brick wall of CCP speaks volumes about "what you really want".
Marsha Mallow
#852 - 2015-05-20 19:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I don't see that improving PVE content should have to be to the detriment of "core concepts".

It has been improved and expanded with the 'core concepts' of the game in mind. The addition of Wormholes, Incursions, Drifters and Burner Missions as well as Hacking & PI are all PVE. They scale in terms of rewards based upon how much risk you are willing to take by travelling away from 'safe' areas.

The problem with the request for 'more/better PVE content' in this thread is that the expectation is that this content should be riskless so more people can sit mindlessly pumping out ISK in highsec with as little interraction with anyone else as possible. Apparently this will bring in more subs, have no effect on inflation and these new grinders will be welcomed lovingly by the existing playerbase as our saviours.

There's also a major problem here with perceiving these activities as eating into ISK pumping per hour, as per this post. Which pretty much summarises the problem; people have a perceived ISK/hr formula which dicates how much 'fun' they are having, and we're not killing them fast enough to make a dint in it.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Which by the way are a "sandbox" - Fact is CCP have been steadily moving away from the "core concept" of the game for a few years now

Citation please.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Better PVE in lowsec would be a huge benefit to the "core concepts" of a true sandbox.

I'm not hearing any complaints from lowsec residents. More variety would be great, and I'm sure no one would turn it down, but people running level 5s are printing ISK. Don't speak for lowlifers, they can speak for themselves.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#853 - 2015-05-20 20:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I don't see that improving PVE content should have to be to the detriment of "core concepts".
It can certainly be improved without overly impacting the core of the game, and has been in the last few years. NPC AI is slightly more challenging than it used to be, incursions and burner missions are also examples. IIRC CCP were talking about revamping NPC PvE to make the fits used more like PvP fits, thus giving missioners a more equal footing fit wise with PvPers than they currently have. Such a change will take time to implement, and will need a framework to build upon, something that is probably being done incrementally in the new accelerated development cycle. These are all good things and I have no problems with them.

But asking for 100 new level 4 missions and getting them would hurt development and reiteration on the stuff that has been broken for years, because creating new PvE content is currently man hour intensive (see above).

Quote:
Which by the way are a "sandbox" - Fact is CCP have been steadily moving away from the "core concept" of the game for a few years now
That's your opinion, you're entitled to it; just as I am entitled to have a differing one.

Quote:
Better PVE in lowsec would be a huge benefit to the "core concepts" of a true sandbox.
Although the problem is more of a social problem than a lack of PvE problem I can't say I totally disagree. Some corps have taken steps to mitigate the social problem, I seem to recall at least one lowsec pirate corp selling blue status on a monthly basis.

You do have level 5's down there but hardly anyone who doesn't live there runs them because they don't want to see their shiny mission ship exploding.

Quote:
I wonder if those who believe TQ should be a giant PVP arena as the core concept realize how detrimental that would be to TQ. I know a guy who has played eve for 7 years and his main character has probably not undocked more than 7 times. He does not PVP, has no interest in it but he is one of those players, without him, TQ would be a very different place.

I do believe that CCP Falcon would like a word with you.


I don't PvP in the traditional sense either, my PvP is minimising the risk of it happening to me while carrying on as per normal; but I accept that it exists and, like kittens, can happen to anyone.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#854 - 2015-05-20 22:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And you just missed how many times I've asked, in this thread alone, that PvErs are given tools to:

- generate PvE content through NPC interaction
I'm intrigued, please explain how that would work.


Do you knhow do work collectible card games? Each card is an NPC with certain stats and powers, which come with an associated cost. Certain cards are specially rare or powerful, and anyway having a good deck for each purpose is necessary to win the game.

That could fit into any MMO, but EVE is a specially suit game as NPC are non-existant as game entities and EVE players surely could come with wicked ways to use those NPCs against other players, or in their favor.

As a bonus, the combat mechanic would include spawning missions which would be assigned, double-blind, to other PvErs who would obtain them from NPC agents. Those missisns could have different outcomes, from total success to total failure, for additional challenge.

Now say that the simpler NPcs, the lower-level cards, whereo btainable through the current PvE mechanics, and then you would have a natural answer to "what do you do after doing the current PvE?"

Players woul keep doing PvE rather than quit. And the game would be more interestin if everyoen had the chance to use his preferred playstyle against those who don't share it.

Quote:
- unconsensually PvP other players through PvE
Firstly that's already present, it's called selling your PvE rewards in a player driven economy, that said how would you go about expanding such a thing?[/quote]

Infludencing other players by adding new rules or twistign he current ones. All the way from holdign them under interrogation for fiveminues when they undock, to intercepting their clone transfer procedure and destroy 1,000,000 random SP, potentially disabling several skills depending on those. Just be creative. How many ways can you think of mssing with someone who messed with you? There's a NPC who can do it... for the right price. If you find him, increase his power and keep him alive from assassination attempts (with support from other NPCs).


BTW: I talked about adding more Level 4s as instance of something which would call back players so CCP gained time before crashing. Simply put, and with some napkin calculations, EVE loses 6 PvErs for each PvPr who quits the game**. The answer is not do more and better for PvPrs, but try and do for PvErs what CCP did for PvPrs for years upon years. And meanwhile, callin back thoe 6-to-1 would have an impact in CCP's bottom lin and available resources. More subscribers are always good even i they come to do some PvE...


** PvErs outnumber PvPrs by 2 to 1, and the average tenure of a PvEr is 1/3 that of a PvPr (2 years versus 6 years).

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#855 - 2015-05-20 23:20:31 UTC
Numbers seem to have taken another drop for the last several weeks.

1) Do you think this is just players taking a break to recharge before FozzieSov hits?

2) How do you expect number to track this summer as FozzieSov is implemented?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#856 - 2015-05-20 23:29:08 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Numbers seem to have taken another drop for the last several weeks.


Haven't exactly been keeping up on my stats since my second kid was born a little bit ago, but doesn't concurrency drop literally every summer?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Paranoid Loyd
#857 - 2015-05-20 23:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Numbers seem to have taken another drop for the last several weeks.


Haven't exactly been keeping up on my stats since my second kid was born a little bit ago, but doesn't concurrency drop literally every summer?

Confirming lots of people are purposely sitting idle (read: playing H1Z1 instead) until the sov changes happen.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Solecist Project
#858 - 2015-05-21 01:17:45 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
All the way from holdign them under interrogation for fiveminues when they undock, to intercepting their clone transfer procedure and destroy 1,000,000 random SP, potentially disabling several skills depending on those.


And this right here proves that you hate the player.
That it's about punishing *the player*.

This kind of person are you.

When will you ever stop being such a hatefull and bad person ?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Solecist Project
#859 - 2015-05-21 01:22:03 UTC
Nuts.
Completely nuts.

And you all let her get away with it all the time.
Her and the rest of these freaks from whom you get death threats for killing their space pixels.


And I have to let myself get called a griefer ???



Are you all completely braindead ???

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#860 - 2015-05-21 02:09:09 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Numbers seem to have taken another drop for the last several weeks.


Haven't exactly been keeping up on my stats since my second kid was born a little bit ago, but doesn't concurrency drop literally every summer?

Confirming lots of people are purposely sitting idle (read: playing H1Z1 instead) until the sov changes happen.


h1Z1 is gonna kill EVE! damn zombies!

Big smile