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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#541 - 2015-05-12 02:51:32 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

It was a good article, but just like you they fail to acknowledge the importance of conflict. I think the assholes, douchebags, scumbags, scoundrels, swindlers, scammers, and total jerks of Eve deserve a place on that list as well. They play just as important a role as anyone else. They give more reasons for conflict to happen in the game. They can give better reasons to have an epic battle, to wage a war, to fight for freedom.

Some of you guys just want to have a nice little circle jerk up in here. I ain't having none of it.


I think maybe you did not read that article carefully enough.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#542 - 2015-05-12 02:52:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:

Quote:
Good for the game and good for the individual or a particular group is not the same thing.

If you're going to be stifling player's abilities to be as ****** as they want to each other, you could easily describe that as definitively "good for the individual or a particular group, but not good for the game". You're singling out the meanies because you don't like their playstyle.

The difference between our points of view are clear. I want every player to be able to do pretty much anything they want. But you want the playstyle of a particular group of players to be stifled and limited. That's wrong. It's bad for the game.


I have fought against that "stifling" since almost the day I started playing EVE. But defending the individual player's right to make his own moral choices is the polar opposite of denying that moral choices are being made.

Again, it is possible - and I think necessary to distinguish between the following

"I am following my goals and if someone gets hurt or loses out, then that's too bad"

"To pursue this goal, I need someone to lose their stuff and maybe feel bad about it"

"I have no other goal than making people feel bad"

If making people feel bad for no other reason than you want to make people who are playing the same game, a game where the other people playing in it are the game, is why you play the game, then I'm not going to try and make CCP stop you because I firmly believe that making one's own moral choices is the whole point of the game, but I also don't mind asking you to consider your motives and your ultimate goal. What's the logical endpoint here?

Maybe some people find it fun. You know, like sadism.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#543 - 2015-05-12 02:56:46 UTC
What's the difference between someone who wants to make people feel bad merely for playing EVE and someone who hates EVE?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#544 - 2015-05-12 02:58:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

It was a good article, but just like you they fail to acknowledge the importance of conflict. I think the assholes, douchebags, scumbags, scoundrels, swindlers, scammers, and total jerks of Eve deserve a place on that list as well. They play just as important a role as anyone else. They give more reasons for conflict to happen in the game. They can give better reasons to have an epic battle, to wage a war, to fight for freedom.

Some of you guys just want to have a nice little circle jerk up in here. I ain't having none of it.


I think maybe you did not read that article carefully enough.

Just skimmed through most of it. It's just a bunch of BS about stroking each other off for giving each other reasons for playing the game. Doesn't really give me a reason to not be a total jackass.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#545 - 2015-05-12 03:03:38 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

It was a good article, but just like you they fail to acknowledge the importance of conflict. I think the assholes, douchebags, scumbags, scoundrels, swindlers, scammers, and total jerks of Eve deserve a place on that list as well. They play just as important a role as anyone else. They give more reasons for conflict to happen in the game. They can give better reasons to have an epic battle, to wage a war, to fight for freedom.

Some of you guys just want to have a nice little circle jerk up in here. I ain't having none of it.


I think maybe you did not read that article carefully enough.

Just skimmed through most of it. It's just a bunch of BS about stroking each other off for giving each other reasons for playing the game. Doesn't really give me a reason to not be a total jackass.


I'll try and recast the question: is there anyone in EVE who would have a worse game experience if you weren't playing it?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#546 - 2015-05-12 03:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Malcanis wrote:

I'll try and recast the question: is there anyone in EVE who would have a worse game experience if you weren't playing it?

Maybe my pal Dorian Tormak, I've been showing him the ropes for a while. And my old buddy Sobzchynski or something, I kind of forget his name. Me and Willl Adama used to PvP together in Amamake before he went pr0

Ed: You could probably ask everyone in Amarr as well. I'm sure there are at least a couple souls there who love me.

Malcanis wrote:
What's the difference between someone who wants to make people feel bad merely for playing EVE and someone who hates EVE?

Probably plenty of reasons, but the main one is that a person who hates Eve would probably not be playing it in the first place...
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#547 - 2015-05-12 03:31:30 UTC
What's the point of that question anyway? What does it matter how many people I have *positively affected* in my Eve career? Oh I see. It's because you want to compare epeens. Once you bypass all the pretentious hipster jargon, this *positive game experience* mumbo jumbo really just boils down to a different way to stroke an epeen. Just accept that different people have fun in different ways. Some people just like to **** on other players for fun in this game, and that's alright. It's the way it should be.
Nevase Prometeus
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#548 - 2015-05-12 05:30:38 UTC
maybe it's time for CCP to seperate account.

-PVP account
-Non PVP account (cannnot join player corp)

double or tripple plex or game time's fee. a lot of people who need to play EVE for relax themself ready to pay for their quiet&peace.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#549 - 2015-05-12 06:56:19 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
(piles and piles of bull).


You are in your right to be a jerk, but then everybody is in their right to think you're a jerk and ask CCP to effin ban you.

I have a long career as debater in political forums; have been debating politics for 13 years, have been a moderator, administrator and even owner of a political forum. So I've learned a couple things on the right to be a jerk.

1) you can be a jerk, but only as long as you pay the show: i.e. you can't be a jerk in somebody else's private property if that someone doesn't wants
2) you can be a jerk, but all other users can call you a jerk and have your sorry ass banned (see point 1)
3) jerks fill a important role as source of conflict, but they eventually become a liability when better users quit for their cause, which leads to 2) and 1)
4) jerks are the lowest common -anyone can be a jerk. So, as jerks come for a penny a dozen, all jerks in the world aren't worth the loss of a single valuable user. Which leads to 3), 2) and 1).

TL;DR: being a jerk may be fun for you, but eventually it becomes a bad business proposition for the guy who pays the show.

And then come the rules to evict YOU from HIS property. Ask erotica1.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#550 - 2015-05-12 07:00:07 UTC
Presidente Gallente wrote:
When the game is down to 5-10K pilots online it will be fun again.


I'm not sure CCP's doors can stay open like that. Back when they had that before, they were probably living off initial investments while hoping the subscriptions would eventually reach levels that would pay for the game. Remember, when the subs dropped enough during the $1000 jeans deal, we got an apology from the head of CCP asking us to give it a 2nd chance. That didn't get anywhere near 5-10k before the open apology came.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#551 - 2015-05-12 15:40:57 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
(piles and piles of bull).


You are in your right to be a jerk, but then everybody is in their right to think you're a jerk and ask CCP to effin ban you.

I have a long career as debater in political forums; have been debating politics for 13 years, have been a moderator, administrator and even owner of a political forum. So I've learned a couple things on the right to be a jerk.

1) you can be a jerk, but only as long as you pay the show: i.e. you can't be a jerk in somebody else's private property if that someone doesn't wants
2) you can be a jerk, but all other users can call you a jerk and have your sorry ass banned (see point 1)
3) jerks fill a important role as source of conflict, but they eventually become a liability when better users quit for their cause, which leads to 2) and 1)
4) jerks are the lowest common -anyone can be a jerk. So, as jerks come for a penny a dozen, all jerks in the world aren't worth the loss of a single valuable user. Which leads to 3), 2) and 1).

TL;DR: being a jerk may be fun for you, but eventually it becomes a bad business proposition for the guy who pays the show.

And then come the rules to evict YOU from HIS property. Ask erotica1.

You really want to get people banned for being mean? Can you not see how stupid and childish that is? Obviously it's CCP's right to do whatever they want, but that is not even close to what this discussion is about. CCP could ban everybody tomorrow based on any dumb reasoning they came up with and it wouldn't matter how dumb it is because they could do it if they wanted.

I'm fine with being called a jerk. I'm fine with being called anything you want to call me. What troubles me is that I don't even know where Eve stands in this situation. Could I be banned from this game for being mean? I guess I already know the answer. Since I've been banned from this game already, simply for using the wrong choice of words. Eve likes to pretend to be hardcore but when it really comes down to it it's just a soft, fluffy little circle jerk isn't it?
Marsha Mallow
#552 - 2015-05-12 16:06:06 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
You are in your right to be a squealer, but then everybody is in their right to think you're a squealer and ask CCP to effin make you squeal as often as possible.

I have a long career as a tormenter of squealers; have been teasing them since learning to talk, have been a paid to bully squealers into doing all the work, and fired them if they don't get it done on time. So I've learned a couple things on the right to be a squealer.

1) you can be a squealer, for as long as you like: i.e. you can squeal anywhere and pretty much everyone will find it amusing
2) you can be a squealer, but all other users can laugh their heads off at you and point out that you're a squealer (see point 1)
3) squealers fill a important role as source of hilarity, and it never gets old, which leads to 2) and 1)
4) squealers are special snowflakes - not everyone can sustain gibbering levels of delusional outrage for anything more than a few minutes. So, as squealers are sources of enormous entertainment, everything must be done to ensure they have something to squeal over, all squealers in the world are valuable users. Which leads to 3), 2) and 1).

TL;DR: being a squealer is clearly fun for you, as well as everyone else

You'll never be evicted. We need somebody to tease since Dinsdale retired

P

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#553 - 2015-05-12 16:20:27 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:

You really want to get people banned for being mean? Can you not see how stupid and childish that is?[


No, people like that can't, and while you and I see the problem with that way of thinking (ie wanting someone to be banned because they don't like what they say or how they say it, which is both intolerant and cowerdly), people like this can't. They think it's perfectly fine.

That way of thinking is at the heart of some of the "forum metagaming" that goes on here. While many people post about game changes out of good motivations, there is that fringe that secretly wants to change the game, not because the game needs that change, but because they figure that change will scare off the types of people they don't like.

It has funny results though. CCP changes something that these fringe types thinks works in their favor (example, the old exhumer buff, take that gankers!!!). They get happy. The people they don't like grumble a bit. But eventually, those people (gankers, scammers, folks like that) ADAPT to the situation and keep on going, dashing the hopes of the people who thought they'd leave. So the folks who were happy and hopeful are now depressed while the 'bad people' are even happier, which further fuels an even greater dislike of 'the people they don't like' and so the cycle goes.

Meanwhile, the people they DO like (carebears) leave the game...not because of the 'bad people' but because CCP made the game so safe as to be uninteresting to the type of 'carebear' that would actually like EVE, meaning that not only did the 'bad people' not leave, but their relative share of the population GREW as a result.

It's a vicious cycle of ironic luls Twisted
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#554 - 2015-05-12 17:16:30 UTC
Dantelion Shinoni wrote:
If people want to feel like the big, special hero that will save the world and that will see people and NPCs throw flowers at them whenever they go, and that will never ever fail,
If they want that they have plenty of games out there who offer that and that in a waaaaaayyy better way than EVE could ever.

EVE is about making you feel like **** but at the same time giving you that occasion once in a while to be a REAL big goddam hero.
And the prime mechanism of that is the insane amount of jerks this game has. They will **** you up, they will punish any mistake you make (like getting your mining barge out and letting a neutral see where you warp), and they will laugh at you while doing so.

This make it even sweeter when you manage to get back at them.

Pretty much, EVE has its things it does well and things it's not really good at. PvE will never be EVE's forte whatever the amount of high-sec dwellers who refuse to PvP, same with general non-toxicity, whatever the amount of people who would want to be able to trust everyone and be able to feel safe and loved everywhere, EVE will never be good at providing that, or at least never to a degree that could rival the many games out there who focus on that.

It's by playing to its strengths that EVE will be able to grow, not by badly imitating what others are better at.

EDIT: Although I do agree that there should be a way for people with more 'pacifist' sentiments to fight back. When I started the game I expected people to be able to kill with ISKs, yes you know how to gank me, but I can make you pay thanks to my profits in Industry... But yeah it definitely doesn't work like that, the Bounty system is useless, and wardeccing is... inconvenient?

What about hiring mercenaries? I have no experience in this aspect of the game myself, but I've heard of plenty of mercenary corporations being hired to lay on hurties. I'm sure it can be done if the price is right.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#555 - 2015-05-12 19:54:25 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
(piles and piles of bull).


You are in your right to be a jerk, but then everybody is in their right to think you're a jerk and ask CCP to effin ban you.

I have a long career as debater in political forums; have been debating politics for 13 years, have been a moderator, administrator and even owner of a political forum. So I've learned a couple things on the right to be a jerk.

1) you can be a jerk, but only as long as you pay the show: i.e. you can't be a jerk in somebody else's private property if that someone doesn't wants
2) you can be a jerk, but all other users can call you a jerk and have your sorry ass banned (see point 1)
3) jerks fill a important role as source of conflict, but they eventually become a liability when better users quit for their cause, which leads to 2) and 1)
4) jerks are the lowest common -anyone can be a jerk. So, as jerks come for a penny a dozen, all jerks in the world aren't worth the loss of a single valuable user. Which leads to 3), 2) and 1).

TL;DR: being a jerk may be fun for you, but eventually it becomes a bad business proposition for the guy who pays the show.

And then come the rules to evict YOU from HIS property. Ask erotica1.

You really want to get people banned for being mean? Can you not see how stupid and childish that is? Obviously it's CCP's right to do whatever they want, but that is not even close to what this discussion is about. CCP could ban everybody tomorrow based on any dumb reasoning they came up with and it wouldn't matter how dumb it is because they could do it if they wanted.

I'm fine with being called a jerk. I'm fine with being called anything you want to call me. What troubles me is that I don't even know where Eve stands in this situation. Could I be banned from this game for being mean? I guess I already know the answer. Since I've been banned from this game already, simply for using the wrong choice of words. Eve likes to pretend to be hardcore but when it really comes down to it it's just a soft, fluffy little circle jerk isn't it?


So you're butthurt because CCP spanked you for being a jerk. And rather than learn a lesson which you should had learned yet at this point in your life (unless you're a pre-teen), you blame it on CCP for not being up to your standards... Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Dantelion Shinoni
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#556 - 2015-05-13 01:07:32 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

So you're butthurt because CCP spanked you for being a jerk. And rather than learn a lesson which you should had learned yet at this point in your life (unless you're a pre-teen), you blame it on CCP for not being up to your standards... Roll


Typical forum mod condescension.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#557 - 2015-05-13 01:16:33 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
(piles and piles of bull).


You are in your right to be a jerk, but then everybody is in their right to think you're a jerk and ask CCP to effin ban you.

I have a long career as debater in political forums; have been debating politics for 13 years, have been a moderator, administrator and even owner of a political forum. So I've learned a couple things on the right to be a jerk.

1) you can be a jerk, but only as long as you pay the show: i.e. you can't be a jerk in somebody else's private property if that someone doesn't wants
2) you can be a jerk, but all other users can call you a jerk and have your sorry ass banned (see point 1)
3) jerks fill a important role as source of conflict, but they eventually become a liability when better users quit for their cause, which leads to 2) and 1)
4) jerks are the lowest common -anyone can be a jerk. So, as jerks come for a penny a dozen, all jerks in the world aren't worth the loss of a single valuable user. Which leads to 3), 2) and 1).

TL;DR: being a jerk may be fun for you, but eventually it becomes a bad business proposition for the guy who pays the show.

And then come the rules to evict YOU from HIS property. Ask erotica1.

You really want to get people banned for being mean? Can you not see how stupid and childish that is? Obviously it's CCP's right to do whatever they want, but that is not even close to what this discussion is about. CCP could ban everybody tomorrow based on any dumb reasoning they came up with and it wouldn't matter how dumb it is because they could do it if they wanted.

I'm fine with being called a jerk. I'm fine with being called anything you want to call me. What troubles me is that I don't even know where Eve stands in this situation. Could I be banned from this game for being mean? I guess I already know the answer. Since I've been banned from this game already, simply for using the wrong choice of words. Eve likes to pretend to be hardcore but when it really comes down to it it's just a soft, fluffy little circle jerk isn't it?

Wrong again.. Being banned for abusing or threatening someone in chat is not the same as being a jerk in game. Verbal assault is something that needs to be and is dealt with. You can be a jerk in chat without having to resort to the sort of behaviour that will get you banned. Telling someone in chat he is a useless noob is ok. Telling someone your going to "censored" his mother and sisters, is NOT acceptable (to me).

There is no "soft fluffy circle jerk". (aside from the those who meet in the broom closet, thinking no-one knows what they are doing Blink)
CCP is doing its best to be a money making venture while at the same time allowing human beings to be the worst possible people they can. We play a game that by design brings out the worst in people, which is a really good thing but;
There has to be a line that says; Ok you have gone just that bit to far and moved from the average acceptable jerk to an unacceptable problem.

The only ones who know where that line lays, are those who have crossed it and are no longer around to tell us.
A little common sense is enough for the "average jerk" to stay below the line of becoming an unacceptable problem.

IsBoxer is a prime example of an "acceptable problem" (players competing to be better or worse than the next guy by any means). For years it was tolerated, then a few overstepped the line of acceptable and created a problem.

You can be as big a jerk as you like, until your actions cross the invisible line of acceptable. You'll know when you've crossed it, you won't be able to log in. A little common sense will ensure you don't.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#558 - 2015-05-13 01:24:25 UTC
Yes, Ishtanchuk Fazmarai, I'm butthurt because CCP spanked me. But it wasn't because I was being a jerk. It was just because I used a special word that apparently has supernatural powers and is capable of evoking exceptional responses. It was one of those "swear" words, you know the ones I mean? People are touchy over that type of thing, man.

And contrary to your assertion I did learn my lesson. As far as I can tell I can be as big of a meanie as I want, just as long as I conform to proper language etiquette. I can **** you up the ass as much as I want, just as long as I refer to it as "having some fun". Let's have some fun! Don't be rude! We're just having fun! Don't you wanna have fun?

There is no lesson to be learned when people **** with your freedom of speech.

Out of curiosity, just what is this life lesson you are describing? Is it, "roll over when the authority tells you to"? Cause I gotta tell ya, I just ain't into doing what I'm told. It bothers the hell out of me.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#559 - 2015-05-13 02:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Ares Desideratus wrote:
And contrary to your assertion I did learn my lesson. As far as I can tell I can be as big of a meanie as I want, just as long as I conform to proper language etiquette. I can **** you up the ass as much as I want, just as long as I refer to it as "having some fun". Let's have some fun! Don't be rude! We're just having fun! Don't you wanna have fun?

There is no lesson to be learned when people **** with your freedom of speech.

CCP also have legal responsibilities to follow.

The PEGI12 rating on the game requires certain limits:

PEGI 12
Videogames that show violence of a slightly more graphic nature towards fantasy character and/or non graphic violence towards human-looking characters or recognisable animals, as well as videogames that show nudity of a slightly more graphic nature would fall in this age category. Any bad language in this category must be mild and fall short of sexual expletives.


So if it's reported to CCP, then they kind of have to act. They also have their stricter layer on top of their legal requirements, outlined in the EULA/TOS:

You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)

So I don't think CCP are into limiting freedom of speech (in game at least. The forum is a different matter perhaps). They, like any business just also take into consideration the responsibilities that come with those rights and your decision to break the agreement you made by acknowledging the EULA.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#560 - 2015-05-13 04:06:54 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

So I don't think CCP are into limiting freedom of speech (in game at least. The forum is a different matter perhaps). They, like any business just also take into consideration the responsibilities that come with those rights and your decision to break the agreement you made by acknowledging the EULA.

That's just a fancy way of saying it, though.

It's like, "hey, we don't want to limit your freedom of speech, but if ya say something we don't like, out ya go!"

Just cause it's in the EULA does not absolve it. But, I think I see your point, and you are right. I don't condone it, but I have to concede.