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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

First post First post First post
Author
Kerena Alabel
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#521 - 2015-05-10 18:37:40 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Community toxicity might be helping to push players out of EVE and maybe we are getting veteran top heavy, so newbies feel they have too far to go.


I know ill get a thoudand replies saying "htfu" or some variant but im inclined to agree with you.

Sure be ruthless space bastards but try not to be a **** about it, know what i mean?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#522 - 2015-05-11 02:07:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


PvPrs can use PvP on PvErs. PvErs should be able to use PvE on PvPrs. This way everybody would face consequences and risk, and not just the guys who don't PvP.


And what, in this frankly batshit insane scheme of things, will stop the "PvPers" from using PvE on "PvErs"?

What fun Twisted;
One man PVE corp hires NPC's to PVP for him (or her).

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#523 - 2015-05-11 04:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Kerena Alabel wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Community toxicity might be helping to push players out of EVE and maybe we are getting veteran top heavy, so newbies feel they have too far to go.


I know ill get a thoudand replies saying "htfu" or some variant but im inclined to agree with you.

Sure be ruthless space bastards but try not to be a **** about it, know what i mean?




It's like IRL when you get stopped by the police for something, even a minor infraction. Some just write you a ticket, others gotta make you literally lick their badge and be a complete prick. The latter has people hating cops and not giving a rat's ass when some gangster or crackhead offs one of them.


The noobs want to play, try their hand at the game, or whatever. It's one thing to pop them it's another to be a sperging edgelord about it and while the latter group like to take pride in driving people from the game, the truth is they just managed to make someone else feel like they were logging in to babysit and hence given the free market in video games, found something else to play.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Kerena Alabel
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#524 - 2015-05-11 05:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kerena Alabel
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Kerena Alabel wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Community toxicity might be helping to push players out of EVE and maybe we are getting veteran top heavy, so newbies feel they have too far to go.


I know ill get a thousand replies saying "htfu" or some variant but im inclined to agree with you.

Sure be ruthless space bastards but try not to be a **** about it, know what i mean?




It's like IRL when you get stopped by the police for something, even a minor infraction. Some just write you a ticket, others gotta make you literally lick their badge and be a complete prick. The latter has people hating cops and not giving a rat's ass when some gangster or crackhead offs one of them.

The noobs want to play, try their hand at the game, or whatever. It's one thing to pop them it's another to be a sperging edgelord about it and while the latter group like to take pride in driving people from the game, the truth is they just managed to make someone else feel like they were logging in to babysit and hence given the free market in video games, found something else to play.



When you are a **** to people all the time it makes people hate you, or at least have contempt for you. Enough people are a-holes and regular folks go "its not me its you" and unsub. I myself stick to a corp run by friends i knew prior to eve. The toxicity here is not tolerable to most folks. Most people have a hard time finding chill folks to run around with. I think people perhaps should be a bit more clear when they are just playing a role vs actually being a horrible person. And even when you find chill people you run the risk of the awful ones finding you. And i dont mean pvp, thats an expected part of the game. Get blown up when you arent careful or you were just unlucky, got it. Some people are just downright cruel on a personal level however. Ive been playing off and on since 2013 and if anything the cruelty has only gotten worse. As for veteran top heavy thats also an issue, i think perhaps the tutorial missions people do should point people towards eve university once they are finished, or something like that.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#525 - 2015-05-11 16:45:07 UTC
Don't you think that this so called cruelty is part of what made Eve though? Kerena and Herzog, I think you guys are blowing this stuff out of proportion. I think players should be as cruel as they wanna be. If that happens to drive some people away, then so be it.

The cruelty and the harshness is what attracted me to this game in the first place, other than the beautiful, breathtaking scenery and gameplay. It was the "no fucks given" attitude and the sheer, raw, grittiness of it that really made me fall in love with the game and made me want to truly buckle down and fight back. It made me want to conquer.

For some people the nasty attitude of Eve players might be repulsive, and I think those people can go play something else, something with more instant gratification where the game will hold your hand, but I like Eve because it's a place where the tough get going.

If you know me in game you know I talk a lot of smack, but I never treat newbies very harshly at all. Rather the people I treat most harsh are usually pirates and other people who seem to think they're good. Those are the people who I attack and try to topple.

I mean, don't even go comparing this to real life, please. This is nothing like getting stopped by the cops, I really gotta draw a line there. Please don't compare a video game to real life.

And besides that, I know for a fact there are many many many very nice, intelligent and friendly people in this game who are more than welcoming to newbies, because I am one of those people. If you know me in game you know I can talk smack like no other, but when it comes to newbies I always try and show them a bit of the beauty in this game. But I still think that if somebody WANTS to be an absolute smeghead towards newbies, then they should go right ahead and do it. If the newbie cries and leaves the game then it's whatever, either the game ain't for them, they're just too weak, or they will come back with a vengeance.

Do you really think people in this game are too cruel? Personally I think we aren't cruel enough. They should just get rid of censorship and all of the "language rules" and all that and let us say whatever the **** we want, would that really be so bad?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#526 - 2015-05-11 18:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Ares Desideratus wrote:

Do you really think people in this game are too cruel? Personally I think we aren't cruel enough. They should just get rid of censorship and all of the "language rules" and all that and let us say whatever the **** we want, would that really be so bad?


While I'd be the last to deny that there moderation polices in this forum don't always aim at the right targets, total non-moderation ends up with forums that devolve into those who tolerate or enjoy the communication style of the absolute lowest common denominator.

EG: Youtube comments.

Go read youtube comments for an hour and see if you still have the same ideals. Or, indeed, a functioning cortex.

EDIT: I think it's also possible distinguish between a moral imperative to endure setbacks and "unfairness" and the mindset that seems to think that it's a duty to impose the maximum amount of those things regardless of personal advantage. Being tough and harsh is one thing. Being a **** is another. But I also believe that one's moral choices should be one's own to make or thry have no meaning.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#527 - 2015-05-11 18:27:53 UTC
Eve is dead can I have your stuff?

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#528 - 2015-05-11 18:35:15 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:




It's like IRL when you get stopped by the police for something, even a minor infraction. Some just write you a ticket, others gotta make you literally lick their badge and be a complete prick. The latter has people hating cops and not giving a rat's ass when some gangster or crackhead offs one of them.


This right here confirms every single thought I've ever had about you.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#529 - 2015-05-11 19:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Malcanis wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:

Do you really think people in this game are too cruel? Personally I think we aren't cruel enough. They should just get rid of censorship and all of the "language rules" and all that and let us say whatever the **** we want, would that really be so bad?


While I'd be the last to deny that there moderation polices in this forum don't always aim at the right targets, total non-moderation ends up with forums that devolve into those who tolerate or enjoy the communication style of the absolute lowest common denominator.

EG: Youtube comments.

Go read youtube comments for an hour and see if you still have the same ideals. Or, indeed, a functioning cortex.

EDIT: I think it's also possible distinguish between a moral imperative to endure setbacks and "unfairness" and the mindset that seems to think that it's a duty to impose the maximum amount of those things regardless of personal advantage. Being tough and harsh is one thing. Being a **** is another. But I also believe that one's moral choices should be one's own to make or thry have no meaning.

As dumb as that type of behavior is, I do not see a problem with it. It's like anal sex. I find it completely repulsive and would never take part in it, but I see no reason why a person should not be allowed to engage in it if they choose to.

Edit: If you don't mind I'd like you to ignore the terrible anal sex example. It's just what pooped into my head.

Also, Kerena was kind of saying the same thing, like, "OK, be harsh, but don't be a ****", or what you said, "Being harsh is one thing, but being a **** is another". I don't even really understand what this means. You want people to only be allowed to reach a certain level of meanness? Why is there a need to discriminate against certain levels of meanness ? What is wrong with being a **** in a video game? Know what I'm saying?
Presidente Gallente
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#530 - 2015-05-11 20:15:00 UTC
No patience. No EVE.
Presidente Gallente
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#531 - 2015-05-11 20:43:02 UTC
When the game is down to 5-10K pilots online it will be fun again.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#532 - 2015-05-11 22:04:57 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
What is wrong with being a **** in a video game? Know what I'm saying?

Look at the game as a whole now, honestly look at it - Then you could possibly answer that yourself.

While being ruthless and harsh is ok, taking it to ever higher levels by trying to prove yours is bigger than the next guys, things get broken.

We have all heard and said - EVE IS REAL - and like anything that is real for you (not the next guy, who just thinks it fun to be the biggest douche he can regardless of the consequences for others)), if it becomes to hard or boring or begins to cost too much or simply hurts more than you like - You stop doing it.
Eve is a game but it is also much more than a game, it has an impact on many things outside of pixel fights and calling some guy a nob (and worse) because he killed your rookie ship with a proteus.

Be as ruthless as you like but keep a level of humanity about you - If you don't like it, quit, has seen eve lose many who could have gone on to give you content for the next 4 or 5 years, had you not just pushed them aside by being an "absolute" douche. By all means, beat'em up, kill their ships, blow up their mobile depots - Just don't be an absolute douche about it.

Try for all out destruction instead of annihilation with extinction .
All out destruction proves you are stronger (at that time) and can be come back from, extinction is final and is future kill mails you and others, will never get.


My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Kerena Alabel
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#533 - 2015-05-11 22:10:41 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
What is wrong with being a **** in a video game? Know what I'm saying?

Look at the game as a whole now, honestly look at it - Then you could possibly answer that yourself.

While being ruthless and harsh is ok, taking it to ever higher levels by trying to prove yours is bigger than the next guys, things get broken.

We have all heard and said - EVE IS REAL - and like anything that is real for you (not the next guy, who just thinks it fun to be the biggest douche he can regardless of the consequences for others)), if it becomes to hard or boring or begins to cost too much or simply hurts more than you like - You stop doing it.
Eve is a game but it is also much more than a game, it has an impact on many things outside of pixel fights and calling some guy a nob (and worse) because he killed your rookie ship with a proteus.

Be as ruthless as you like but keep a level of humanity about you - If you don't like it, quit, has seen eve lose many who could have gone on to give you content for the next 4 or 5 years, had you not just pushed them aside by being an "absolute" douche. By all means, beat'em up, kill their ships, blow up their mobile depots - Just don't be an absolute douche about it.

Try for all out destruction instead of annihilation with extinction .
All out destruction proves you are stronger (at that time) and can be come back from, extinction is final and is future kill mails you and others, will never get.





Well said.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#534 - 2015-05-11 23:08:44 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
What is wrong with being a **** in a video game? Know what I'm saying?

Look at the game as a whole now, honestly look at it - Then you could possibly answer that yourself.

While being ruthless and harsh is ok, taking it to ever higher levels by trying to prove yours is bigger than the next guys, things get broken.

We have all heard and said - EVE IS REAL - and like anything that is real for you (not the next guy, who just thinks it fun to be the biggest douche he can regardless of the consequences for others)), if it becomes to hard or boring or begins to cost too much or simply hurts more than you like - You stop doing it.
Eve is a game but it is also much more than a game, it has an impact on many things outside of pixel fights and calling some guy a nob (and worse) because he killed your rookie ship with a proteus.

Be as ruthless as you like but keep a level of humanity about you - If you don't like it, quit, has seen eve lose many who could have gone on to give you content for the next 4 or 5 years, had you not just pushed them aside by being an "absolute" douche. By all means, beat'em up, kill their ships, blow up their mobile depots - Just don't be an absolute douche about it.

Try for all out destruction instead of annihilation with extinction .
All out destruction proves you are stronger (at that time) and can be come back from, extinction is final and is future kill mails you and others, will never get.

I was asking Malcanis what was wrong with being a jerk. Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with being a complete and total jerk in this game. Maybe you could spell out for me just what it is I should see when I honestly look at Eve. But I think that we need to have evil in this game to make it as great as it is. Without the evil there is no one for the good to rise against.

I don't rejoice at the fact that many players have decided to quit Eve based on the overall mentality of the game and players. But neither do I regret that fact. As far as I can tell Eve has had a steady line of new players come and go since it began and, although I am not sure of the actual numbers, the player base seems to keep on growing with the years from what I can tell.

Again I'm not the type of player to go to these extreme lengths, but I don't have a problem with players who do. Actually I would look at this type of behavior as a challenge, something to overcome, an obstacle for my entertainment.

Let's try and get to the point here though. I'm having a hard time understanding what you guys are even describing when you talk about these levels of meanness, these so called Absolute Douches. Where are the lines drawn? I mean, currently in the game, I can get banned from the game just for saying the wrong word, it's happened to me quite a few times in this game, where I have said something that someone didn't like, and was actually banned from the game because of it, so I know very well the limits that CCP has put on our freedom of speech in this game.

I truly think there is plenty of carebear in this game to go around. Community toxicity is not a problem in this game, and I don't think it ever will be, but if you really think it is, or even if you only think that it has the potential to become a problem, could you please be more specific in your reasoning behind this, maybe give me an actual example of what you consider extreme player behavior?

I really believe that if you put it in the hands of the players, that as ugly as things can get there would always be that silver lining, there would always be hope, always be those brave souls fighting the good fight. Good would always prevail.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#535 - 2015-05-12 01:17:51 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:

I was asking Malcanis what was wrong with being a jerk. Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with being a complete and total jerk in this game. Maybe you could spell out for me just what it is I should see when I honestly look at Eve. But I think that we need to have evil in this game to make it as great as it is. Without the evil there is no one for the good to rise against.

I don't rejoice at the fact that many players have decided to quit Eve based on the overall mentality of the game and players. But neither do I regret that fact. As far as I can tell Eve has had a steady line of new players come and go since it began and, although I am not sure of the actual numbers, the player base seems to keep on growing with the years from what I can tell.

Again I'm not the type of player to go to these extreme lengths, but I don't have a problem with players who do. Actually I would look at this type of behavior as a challenge, something to overcome, an obstacle for my entertainment.

Let's try and get to the point here though. I'm having a hard time understanding what you guys are even describing when you talk about these levels of meanness, these so called Absolute Douches. Where are the lines drawn? I mean, currently in the game, I can get banned from the game just for saying the wrong word, it's happened to me quite a few times in this game, where I have said something that someone didn't like, and was actually banned from the game because of it, so I know very well the limits that CCP has put on our freedom of speech in this game.

I truly think there is plenty of carebear in this game to go around. Community toxicity is not a problem in this game, and I don't think it ever will be, but if you really think it is, or even if you only think that it has the potential to become a problem, could you please be more specific in your reasoning behind this, maybe give me an actual example of what you consider extreme player behavior?

I really believe that if you put it in the hands of the players, that as ugly as things can get there would always be that silver lining, there would always be hope, always be those brave souls fighting the good fight. Good would always prevail.

Ok. Looking at the numbers shows, since February 2014 numbers online have steadily declined. The period of January to May last year saw an average 35k for the period, compared to 29k for the same period this year. Before you say, "that's due to extended skill cues", it could well be but is still 6k less players per day logging in and playing the game. Good for CCP, they make money out of AFK subs, so less load on servers etc. Not so good for those who login and find only 18k players online (6 to 8k less than this time last year) in their TZ. TQ can be a bloody big place when your looking for a fight.

As for absolute douche bags - To try out the new Opportunities, I created a brand new character (not impressed btw). 2 days in I was doing "Time to mine" in a rookie ship which was killed by a guy in a T1 frigate. When I messaged to ask him why he would sacrifice his ship to Concord just to kill a noob rookie ship he replied with. No fkn place in this game for your type, just leave now.
I think that is an example of extreme behaviour and had I been a new player with no isk to replace the 2 meta modules i brought to do another part of Opportunities (which have no isk rewards), I probably would have started looking for another game to play.

Just for clarification; The douche bags who want total control over others and everything just how they think it should be aren't restricted to killing the odd carebear. Any group who monopolizes an environment to the exclusion of others is just as bad if not worse than the guy who kills an unknown rookie and tells him to quit the game. If players are unable to play the game how they want without fear of being continually victimized they start to look for a game they can.

So; While there is nothing wrong with being a jerk, limiting the often extreme lengths taken to be a jerk is important.

So far, history in the hands of players shows good is a subjective thing and what is seen as good by some becomes game changing and bad for others. Good for the game and good for the individual or a particular group is not the same thing.

CCP is very lenient with bans over things said in chat. First someone has to report you for what they consider inappropriate behaviour, then CCP look at it and make a decision. Again, what is acceptable by some is seen as abuse by others.
Where do you draw the line? I draw it at my mum, she was a very broadminded person who gave as good as she got, if i couldn't use the words with her there it would probably be too obscene to use in a public chat channel where you have people from many different backgrounds, cultures and morality. (Maybe my line isn't quite right but I try to take the unknown morality of others into consideration when abusing them Twisted)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#536 - 2015-05-12 01:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
There seem to be a lot of bittervets who actually want less players in this game anyway. I don't particularly agree with that notion, but I do think that anything that keeps this game as close to what it started out as, is a good thing.

If anything, contemplating quitting the game over something as silly as getting ganked as a noob, is a better example of extreme behavior than the simple act of ganking a noob and telling him to get lost.

Quote:
Just for clarification; The douche bags who want total control over others and everything just how they think it should be aren't restricted to killing the odd carebear. Any group who monopolizes an environment to the exclusion of others is just as bad if not worse than the guy who kills an unknown rookie and tells him to quit the game. If players are unable to play the game how they want without fear of being continually victimized they start to look for a game they can.


I'm not entirely sure what you're describing here, but it sounds to me like something a butthurt carebear would say. I really can't think of any other description for this. What are you describing? The alliances who control null sec? Low sec pirates? People who leave Eve Online because they fear being victimized - those people are the ones doing the victimization, only they're doing it to themselves. It's so much easier to play the victim than it is to actually stand up for yourself, and that's exactly what so many weaklings have done when they can't handle Eve - they play victim, and quit the game and find something else, something easier. All you really have to do is have a back bone and a little grit.

I disagree with you. If you're gonna be limiting people's ability to be mean, you're just stifling player's potential. You are showing blatant favouritism toward what you consider to be normal behaviour.

Quote:
Good for the game and good for the individual or a particular group is not the same thing.

If you're going to be stifling player's abilities to be as ****** as they want to each other, you could easily describe that as definitively "good for the individual or a particular group, but not good for the game". You're singling out the meanies because you don't like their playstyle.

The difference between our points of view are clear. I want every player to be able to do pretty much anything they want. But you want the playstyle of a particular group of players to be stifled and limited. That's wrong. It's bad for the game.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#537 - 2015-05-12 01:56:14 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
What is wrong with being a **** in a video game? Know what I'm saying?

Look at the game as a whole now, honestly look at it - Then you could possibly answer that yourself.

While being ruthless and harsh is ok, taking it to ever higher levels by trying to prove yours is bigger than the next guys, things get broken.

We have all heard and said - EVE IS REAL - and like anything that is real for you (not the next guy, who just thinks it fun to be the biggest douche he can regardless of the consequences for others)), if it becomes to hard or boring or begins to cost too much or simply hurts more than you like - You stop doing it.
Eve is a game but it is also much more than a game, it has an impact on many things outside of pixel fights and calling some guy a nob (and worse) because he killed your rookie ship with a proteus.

Be as ruthless as you like but keep a level of humanity about you - If you don't like it, quit, has seen eve lose many who could have gone on to give you content for the next 4 or 5 years, had you not just pushed them aside by being an "absolute" douche. By all means, beat'em up, kill their ships, blow up their mobile depots - Just don't be an absolute douche about it.

Try for all out destruction instead of annihilation with extinction .
All out destruction proves you are stronger (at that time) and can be come back from, extinction is final and is future kill mails you and others, will never get.

I was asking Malcanis what was wrong with being a jerk.


xn.ym

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#538 - 2015-05-12 02:09:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

It was a good article, but just like you they fail to acknowledge the importance of conflict. I think the assholes, douchebags, scumbags, scoundrels, swindlers, scammers, and total jerks of Eve deserve a place on that list as well. They play just as important a role as anyone else. They give more reasons for conflict to happen in the game. They can give better reasons to have an epic battle, to wage a war, to fight for freedom.

Some of you guys just want to have a nice little circle jerk up in here. I ain't having none of it.
Dantelion Shinoni
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#539 - 2015-05-12 02:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dantelion Shinoni
If people want to feel like the big, special hero that will save the world and that will see people and NPCs throw flowers at them whenever they go, and that will never ever fail,
If they want that they have plenty of games out there who offer that and that in a waaaaaayyy better way than EVE could ever.

EVE is about making you feel like **** but at the same time giving you that occasion once in a while to be a REAL big goddam hero.
And the prime mechanism of that is the insane amount of jerks this game has. They will **** you up, they will punish any mistake you make (like getting your mining barge out and letting a neutral see where you warp), and they will laugh at you while doing so.

This make it even sweeter when you manage to get back at them.

Pretty much, EVE has its things it does well and things it's not really good at. PvE will never be EVE's forte whatever the amount of high-sec dwellers who refuse to PvP, same with general non-toxicity, whatever the amount of people who would want to be able to trust everyone and be able to feel safe and loved everywhere, EVE will never be good at providing that, or at least never to a degree that could rival the many games out there who focus on that.

It's by playing to its strengths that EVE will be able to grow, not by badly imitating what others are better at.

EDIT: Although I do agree that there should be a way for people with more 'pacifist' sentiments to fight back. When I started the game I expected people to be able to kill with ISKs, yes you know how to gank me, but I can make you pay thanks to my profits in Industry... But yeah it definitely doesn't work like that, the Bounty system is useless, and wardeccing is... inconvenient?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#540 - 2015-05-12 02:46:27 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:

Quote:
Good for the game and good for the individual or a particular group is not the same thing.

If you're going to be stifling player's abilities to be as ****** as they want to each other, you could easily describe that as definitively "good for the individual or a particular group, but not good for the game". You're singling out the meanies because you don't like their playstyle.

The difference between our points of view are clear. I want every player to be able to do pretty much anything they want. But you want the playstyle of a particular group of players to be stifled and limited. That's wrong. It's bad for the game.


I have fought against that "stifling" since almost the day I started playing EVE. But defending the individual player's right to make his own moral choices is the polar opposite of denying that moral choices are being made.

Again, it is possible - and I think necessary to distinguish between the following

"I am following my goals and if someone gets hurt or loses out, then that's too bad"

"To pursue this goal, I need someone to lose their stuff and maybe feel bad about it"

"I have no other goal than making people feel bad"

If making people feel bad for no other reason than you want to make people who are playing the same game, a game where the other people playing in it are the game, is why you play the game, then I'm not going to try and make CCP stop you because I firmly believe that making one's own moral choices is the whole point of the game, but I also don't mind asking you to consider your motives and your ultimate goal. What's the logical endpoint here?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016