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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

First post First post First post
Author
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-03-30 02:20:23 UTC
Antonia Iskarius wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Antonia Iskarius wrote:
I agree completely. The new sov mechanics sound terrible. Being forced into 4 hour windows of attack defend each day.

I also dislike how the ship 'rebalancing' has led to a situation where there is basically only one or two ways to correctly fit each ship due to the extremely specific roles/bonuses/slots/etc. You can often guess how a ship is going to be fit now, there isn't a lot of guesswork except for in the case of T3s.

Players use a new tactic like Skynet? Completely nerf supers and carriers into the ground, remove delegation because whiny players need their risk adverse hands held instead of figuring out how to win on their own.

I have unsubbed 7 accounts so far with the gametime left on this last one expiring shortly.

Hope you guys like playing with less and less people.


Sounds like you won't be using your stuff in the near future. If so, I promise to make use of it and offer myself as someone who will put your assets to good use. Please contract at your leisure and convenience.

I have several hundred billion isk of assets spread over those deactivated accounts. Almost none on this one though, this one houses a corp/POS maintenance dude with minimum skills who only owns an iteron and some fuel blocks, the other pilot has literally no skill points and is only used for giving support in an in-game channel, and this pilot herself is a hauler alt who used to have a freighter but traded it over to the Jita alt on another account months ago. So between the three pilots on this account I only have maybe 50mil isk and an indy (which is in the middle of null-sec). I would need to plex them all in order to liquidate/disburse stuff. Sorry dude Ugh


I understand. But in the event that you need someone to offload on who will use everything you're abandoning, feel free to dump it on me.

In any event, have a nice day :)
Arancar Australis
Dead Sun Rising Enterprises
#22 - 2015-03-30 03:22:57 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Antonia Iskarius wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Antonia Iskarius wrote:
I agree completely. The new sov mechanics sound terrible. Being forced into 4 hour windows of attack defend each day.

I also dislike how the ship 'rebalancing' has led to a situation where there is basically only one or two ways to correctly fit each ship due to the extremely specific roles/bonuses/slots/etc. You can often guess how a ship is going to be fit now, there isn't a lot of guesswork except for in the case of T3s.

Players use a new tactic like Skynet? Completely nerf supers and carriers into the ground, remove delegation because whiny players need their risk adverse hands held instead of figuring out how to win on their own.

I have unsubbed 7 accounts so far with the gametime left on this last one expiring shortly.

Hope you guys like playing with less and less people.


Sounds like you won't be using your stuff in the near future. If so, I promise to make use of it and offer myself as someone who will put your assets to good use. Please contract at your leisure and convenience.

I have several hundred billion isk of assets spread over those deactivated accounts. Almost none on this one though, this one houses a corp/POS maintenance dude with minimum skills who only owns an iteron and some fuel blocks, the other pilot has literally no skill points and is only used for giving support in an in-game channel, and this pilot herself is a hauler alt who used to have a freighter but traded it over to the Jita alt on another account months ago. So between the three pilots on this account I only have maybe 50mil isk and an indy (which is in the middle of null-sec). I would need to plex them all in order to liquidate/disburse stuff. Sorry dude Ugh


I understand. But in the event that you need someone to offload on who will use everything you're abandoning, feel free to dump it on me.

In any event, have a nice day :)



Yes Ned does like to be dumped on Smile
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-03-30 06:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
I doubt there's anyone left at CCP actively involved in development that recalls first hand what EVE was originally built on. I'd bet those there are operating from second-hand, third-hand legend and myth - with an added conceptualization problem trying to attach pictures to the words - sandbox for instance. The game of no rules with rules.

This pristine definition of EVE left the rails five years ago...working on six now. Since then it's been change/adjust
alter/dump repeat and rinse in the form of "updates". Now and then there's pleasant additions which seem to be born from somebody's whimsy. If ever something needed to be recalibrated from a fundamental base it's EVE. However, the Icelandic Ego would never admit to this. It's, after all, ¿Qué es más machista - when it should be "What, exactly,
are we trying to do here?"

Unfortunately, the default position for corporations is to answer that question, "Trying to make money." Of course.
No great work of art was inspired by the profit motive. Never was. Never will.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
#24 - 2015-03-30 07:55:00 UTC
is eve kill yet?

Sisohiv wrote:
As for the Sandbox, it was never a sandbox. Even look at CCP social media. They don't showcase building in EVE. They showcase lie, cheat, steal, backstab and destroy.

and you're saying that whatever players are destroying was put there by the devs, like in the mainstream FPS games that tell you, "here's a wall, shoot a rocket at it and watch it explode"?

there is nothing that players build in this game, such as ships, starbases and even entire empires with vast armies of tens of thousands of other players? no? okay then if that's the case I think I might be in the wrong game.

time to unsub, eve is definitely kill.

Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci

CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase - Frostys Virpio

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#25 - 2015-03-30 08:46:04 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
that quote was originally taken from the largest ganking tear thread of last year and pertains to non consensual pvp in all areas of space(read highsec).

Here is the origional Quote from this thread and was a direct response to being called out over nerfs to the predatory playstyle
Edit: he has a couple of other posts in that thread escalating to that one that inform it somewhat,
sovereignty was not even remotely relevant to the discussion (read ****fest) and is somewhat out of context for this topic.

So his views and opinions on Eve would vary depending on what the topic is?

I hope your wrong, he is one of the few Devs I have any faith in, that he wants what is best for the game, rather than what makes him popular with his game friends.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#26 - 2015-03-30 09:32:51 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Iteration on the sov changes is underway.

The first outline won't be what the final implementation looks like.

If the 4 hours comes about then yeah it will not be what most players want, but we still don't know the final sov updates.

In relation to the NPE comments, I can't disagree with you. Solo play for a new player sucks. There's been a few related threads in recent times.

Judging by the 199 pages of "no response or update from Devs" thread on the new sov system and the meager amount of new information given at Fanfest and the time for deployment getting closer - What you see is what you get.
CCP is more than making it clear players come 2nd and their needs and wants come 1st, where updates to Eve are concerned.

I believe one Dev when asked about the coming changes was said to have replied - I can't give you any further information except, it will be Awesome.
So far "Awesome" is far from the 1st thing i think of. The exact opposite seems more applicable, based on the limited information and feedback we have received from the development team.
CCP has set themselves 8 goals they want to achieve with the coming sov changes and unless they completely rewrite parts of the proposal, 6 of those 8 will not be achieved. Simply reading the proposed changes and how they interact with each other = failed goals.


My comments on NPE are based on the sons of 3 friends (who don't play Eve) who decided they wanted to give it a go. Getting a phone call from a mate at 8pm asking me to login to help his 19 year old son and a couple of his friends "learn that crazy game you play" was quite funny but at the same time got me to thinking. These kids have grown up playing games online and on consoles, yet had so much trouble getting into Eve they had to ask for help. I directed them to rookie chat (and opened it myself) What a disaster, rookies giving rookies advise and trolls trying underhanded scams or just giving out and out bad info. I told them to close the channel and gave them a few names to call on for advice if i wasn't around. Not all rookies have a ready made network to call on for assistance and information.
The older teenagers starting eve today, are eves future, they need something more to engage and motivate them.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#27 - 2015-03-30 09:36:56 UTC
Candi LeMew wrote:
Maybe submit a support ticket and ask him.


..... Roll

The rest of eve don't deserve to know?
Should CCP keep more secrets about their vision for Eve?

Stay a mushroom, you can roll your eyes all you like in the dark, uninformed room you choose to live in. (no-one will see you)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

flakeys
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-03-30 10:07:43 UTC
As long as they add enough psshhhhhh in it we'll be fine ....

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#29 - 2015-03-30 10:28:12 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
that quote was originally taken from the largest ganking tear thread of last year and pertains to non consensual pvp in all areas of space(read highsec).

Here is the origional Quote from this thread and was a direct response to being called out over nerfs to the predatory playstyle
Edit: he has a couple of other posts in that thread escalating to that one that inform it somewhat,
sovereignty was not even remotely relevant to the discussion (read ****fest) and is somewhat out of context for this topic.

So his views and opinions on Eve would vary depending on what the topic is?

I hope your wrong, he is one of the few Devs I have any faith in, that he wants what is best for the game, rather than what makes him popular with his game friends.


Don't take me the wrong way now, I have my concerns about the upcoming changes also , however I think it's a bit early to be calling our community manager out over proposed features while they are still very much in development.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#30 - 2015-03-30 10:35:33 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
that quote was originally taken from the largest ganking tear thread of last year and pertains to non consensual pvp in all areas of space(read highsec).

Here is the origional Quote from this thread and was a direct response to being called out over nerfs to the predatory playstyle
Edit: he has a couple of other posts in that thread escalating to that one that inform it somewhat,
sovereignty was not even remotely relevant to the discussion (read ****fest) and is somewhat out of context for this topic.

So his views and opinions on Eve would vary depending on what the topic is?

I hope your wrong, he is one of the few Devs I have any faith in, that he wants what is best for the game, rather than what makes him popular with his game friends.


Don't take me the wrong way now, I have my concerns about the upcoming changes also , however I think it's a bit early to be calling our community manager out over proposed features while they are still very much in development.


Let me bolden, underline and italic that.
The OP is (pardon my french) humping the wrong leg on the wrong dev.
Puh Tayto
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-03-30 10:39:26 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I came across this quite interesting quote from CCP Falcon and with all the recent changes was wondering if he feels the new NulSec meets his stated opinion or does it need some amending.

Eve is now further away from what he describes than ever before.
The amount of "rules" are overwhelming the sandbox element.

what makes you think a sandbox with rules is not a sandbox?


Here's a big box full of sand, go play in it. NO NOT LIKE THAT
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#32 - 2015-03-30 10:54:53 UTC
Puh Tayto wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I came across this quite interesting quote from CCP Falcon and with all the recent changes was wondering if he feels the new NulSec meets his stated opinion or does it need some amending.

Eve is now further away from what he describes than ever before.
The amount of "rules" are overwhelming the sandbox element.

what makes you think a sandbox with rules is not a sandbox?


Here's a big box full of sand, go play in it. NO NOT LIKE THAT

As a parent of twin boys, that's exactly what happens " no, don't ,stop that,put that down,let go of her hair.....and his"
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-03-30 11:20:50 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Puh Tayto wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I came across this quite interesting quote from CCP Falcon and with all the recent changes was wondering if he feels the new NulSec meets his stated opinion or does it need some amending.

Eve is now further away from what he describes than ever before.
The amount of "rules" are overwhelming the sandbox element.

what makes you think a sandbox with rules is not a sandbox?


Here's a big box full of sand, go play in it. NO NOT LIKE THAT

As a parent of twin boys, that's exactly what happens " no, don't ,stop that,put that down,let go of her hair.....and his"

CCP has to shape the conditions in the sandbox universe so that more than 1 player can happily use the sand to do something with it, also players of different age need a meaningful way to play "together" without dividing the box. A virtually impossible endeavor requiring a constant flux of re-balancing. That said, I'm in general for simple (but effective) rules, but it's hard to find those in front of a bathful of criminal energy from thousands of experienced pixel warriors. Blink

I'm my own NPC alt.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#34 - 2015-03-30 11:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Iteration on the sov changes is underway.

The first outline won't be what the final implementation looks like.

If the 4 hours comes about then yeah it will not be what most players want, but we still don't know the final sov updates.

In relation to the NPE comments, I can't disagree with you. Solo play for a new player sucks. There's been a few related threads in recent times.
Only the 4 hour window?

The whole Fozzie Logic plan is ludicrous.
For a few months people will do a lot of fighting, try hold onto the SOV
Then they will fail cascade and give it up, moving into NPC Null and Low Sec.
The huge alliances will hold the moons from there.
Smaller ones will try feed on the dead carcass of SOV until they get tired of being trolled by the huge alliances. ( .... or they will be extorted instead of charged rent).

Eventually, Null will be even more empty and a waste land. CCP will shift server resources to Low Sec and the Moon systems where the fighting occurs.

People will give up on making their own kindoms, bringing down the huge alliances. The huge ones will become shawdows of themselves, like the alliances you see floating around now that used to have SOV but can't grab it any longer.

The game will lose ambitious players and theme park game play will be on its way.

OR

CCP will actually see how terrible it all is, get someone else to take over as "SOV Null game designer" (to sideline Fozzie) and do some emergency patches to fix the huge mess he is about to make.

I am very Ugh about the coming changes ... but hey, there is always High Sec Incursions and Worm Holes! Blink

P.S. Fozzie has his vision, he has written it in his dev blog. He believes that he is completely right. Jump fatigue for all the complaining is working perfectly as planned in the design.
Now he is very sure of himself, so he is going to push through magic wands and easy flips to forward his Pandemic Legion style of playing EVE.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#35 - 2015-03-30 12:01:15 UTC


CCP will actually see how terrible it all is, get someone else to take over as "SOV Null game designer" (to sideline Fozzie) and do some emergency patches to fix the huge mess he is about to make.

I am very Ugh about the coming changes ... but hey, there is always High Sec Incursions and Worm Holes! Blink

P.S. Fozzie has his vision, he has written it in his dev blog. He believes that he is completely right. Jump fatigue for all the complaining is working perfectly as planned in the design.
Now he is very sure of himself, so he is going to push through magic wands and easy flips to forward his Pandemic Legion style of playing EVE.[/quote]


CCP games worst mistake is hiring players to become dev's who have no idea on proper game design for the entire customers for which they provide a service for.. and in turn turning the game into "their own game" which all it does is ruin the sandbox even more.

if he designed other games and had a portfolio to prove he's excellent I'd be a little kinder out of respect. but honestly if they continue down this road of allowing fanboys to ruin their art.. then I look forward to the day I unsub and stop paying their bills.

vision.. vision.. yeah last dev said he had a vision and that ended well with teams being removed.. he didn't include his vision involving him splitting just like the others visions who split as well.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#36 - 2015-03-30 12:12:44 UTC
It's impossible to design a sandbox with no rules. EVE has had rules since forever, just like any other sandbox. It's the players that are unable to expand properly into the setting most of the time.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2015-03-30 12:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
I'm not nearly as doom and gloom about, well, anything going on with the game right now as some of you are. That's not to say I don't have serious concerns. But at the end of the day, CCP isn't doing anything on the scale of "monoclegate/incarna" bad.

What is happening I think (as an outside observer that not only doesn't have the same information CCP has, but also as a guy who doesn't depend on EVE for food, shelter and clothing like a CCP employee does) is that sometimes people on the inside forget how to see things like people on the outside do. Developers may have been (and may still be) players, but actually working for a company changes all perspectives.



Anyways, yes, the "FozzieSov" idea is terrible. Not because it isn't well designed. Not because Fozzie and Co. are stupid (they are very smart). No, it's bad because it demonstrates that those guys don't understand the people they are developing for. They seem to think "pvp is pvp" without understanding that individual people and groups that like pvp like different forms of it.

The pvp that happens in low sec and FW is fundamentally different from what happens in null (and what happens in null is different from wormholes, what happens in wormholes is different from high sec, etc). "FozzieSov" is more like FW than anything else, and FW is small gang/solo style pvp. While plenty of null players like that kind of stuff, if they wanted that full time they'd have just gone to or stayed in FW.

Null sec attracts 'big fleets and big ships' types (the so called F1 monkeys, of which I am a proud member) and this Sov system creates an environment directly counter to what sov null dwellers are there for. Putting FozzieSov in null is like wiping away the current FW system in low sec and replacing it with Dominion Sov.. FW people would have just gone to null if they wanted to play that way.

Most of the pvp in EVE is actually small gang and solo. High sec, low sec and FW low sec, npc null, wormhole space, all of these are small gang territory (99% of the time, if there is a big fight in low sec or npc null, it's Sov null coalitions fighting lol). EVE has one real fleet fight (and capital fight) arena (Sov null) and CCPs brilliant idea here is to impose a small gang Sov system on it....

This is why CCP gets complaints, because sometimes they demonstrate breath-taking short sightedness.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#38 - 2015-03-30 13:36:03 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
that quote was originally taken from the largest ganking tear thread of last year and pertains to non consensual pvp in all areas of space(read highsec).

Here is the origional Quote from this thread and was a direct response to being called out over nerfs to the predatory playstyle
Edit: he has a couple of other posts in that thread escalating to that one that inform it somewhat,
sovereignty was not even remotely relevant to the discussion (read ****fest) and is somewhat out of context for this topic.

So his views and opinions on Eve would vary depending on what the topic is?

I hope your wrong, he is one of the few Devs I have any faith in, that he wants what is best for the game, rather than what makes him popular with his game friends.


Don't take me the wrong way now, I have my concerns about the upcoming changes also , however I think it's a bit early to be calling our community manager out over proposed features while they are still very much in development.

I'm not calling CCP Falcon to task over the changes to SOV. I'm asking if "his vision" and perception has changed since he wrote what i quoted in the original post. The quoted post was to an extent a general overview of his opinion on Eve, not just 1 specific part of it.
As I said, I actually have faith CCP Falcon does have good intentions, I would just like to know if he believes the game is headed in the right direction, in his opinion.

Not long now till these major changes to the way many play the game are due to go live. CCP said, they wanted to give plenty of notice to players to have time to evaluate feedback to the proposal. So far, there has been a lot of feedback but no further input from the Devs responsible for the coming changes.
Not even the obligatory - We are reading this.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-03-30 13:45:09 UTC
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame wrote:
is eve kill yet?

Sisohiv wrote:
As for the Sandbox, it was never a sandbox. Even look at CCP social media. They don't showcase building in EVE. They showcase lie, cheat, steal, backstab and destroy.

and you're saying that whatever players are destroying was put there by the devs, like in the mainstream FPS games that tell you, "here's a wall, shoot a rocket at it and watch it explode"?

there is nothing that players build in this game, such as ships, starbases and even entire empires with vast armies of tens of thousands of other players? no? okay then if that's the case I think I might be in the wrong game.

time to unsub, eve is definitely kill.


I already answered that, you parsed it out when you misquoted me.

Sisohiv wrote:
EVE by the numbers.
What numbers?

As for the Sandbox, it was never a sandbox. Even look at CCP social media. They don't showcase building in EVE. They showcase lie, cheat, steal, backstab and destroy.

The most recent being a 600 billion ISK corp theft that was '6 months in the making'. Ignore the years and players it took to build it.

Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-03-30 13:45:31 UTC
Interesting in the history of CCP and Eve, there appears to be one developer that while ambitious, seems to have carte blanche or "whatever I feel is correct" free rein to do whatever they like, instead of working as a group it seems.

CCP Soundwave
CCP Greyscale
CCP Fozzie

The next one will be...?

I could be wrong, but just a perspective of mine.