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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Author
Prince Kobol
#341 - 2015-04-12 20:36:02 UTC
Are seriously suggesting to new players that if they want to have a meanfully effect it will take 2 years...

I mean 2 years. Really.

It's funny because when changes were made to moon go people said things would change, nothing did.

Nothing changed with the changes to Jump Drives either.

Nothing will change this time around because nobody has the numbers, the isk, the level of knowledge or the out of game tools to take on these groups.

There resources when compared to others might as well be never ending.

I suspect that these groups will already have a number of strategies ready to go within minute's of the changes going live. They will of adapted within a few days and in a week or two after an initial rush normal service will be resumed, just like always.


As for why they shouldn't have any connections with either CFC, NC or PL, because they will not be independent and like many other groups who have come and gone they will have zero effect in the long term.

I see that you also were not able to answers my questions regarding new players or groups who had a major influence in null.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#342 - 2015-04-12 20:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Prince Kobol wrote:
Are seriously suggesting to new players that if they want to have a meanfully effect it will take 2 years...

I mean 2 years. Really.
Sure. Why not? It's how it has been since, oh, 2005 or so. And so what if it does? Just because it takes a bit of time does not mean that new players are incapable of making a difference.

Quote:
It's funny because when changes were made to moon go people said things would change, nothing did.

Nothing changed with the changes to Jump Drives either.

Nothing will change this time around because nobody has the numbers, the isk, the level of knowledge or the out of game tools to take on these groups.

…and that is exactly why it can happen, now as ever: because it is, was, and always will be about the people. Mechanics do not change how the groups work, and the groups are what make things happen. The “impossible to beat” groups are utterly minute — the only thing that keeps them on top is that the rest don't organise to insta-beat them.

Quote:
As for why they shouldn't have any connections with either CFC, NC or PL, because they will not be independent and like many other groups who have come and gone they will have zero effect in the long term.
So? They will still make a difference. Why is independence even relevant to the issue?

Quote:
I see that you also were not able to answers my questions regarding new players or groups who had a major influence in null.
Sure I was. I just rejected your flawed premise.
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#343 - 2015-04-12 22:13:54 UTC
Gee I wished people would stop talking about nullsec as if it was all of eve.
It's not. Reading these bitter posts is completely misleading.

And how old are the brave newbies by now?
They are getting there!
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
WE FORM V0LTA
#344 - 2015-04-12 23:44:37 UTC
Eve Solecist wrote:
Gee I wished people would stop talking about nullsec as if it was all of eve.
It's not. Reading these bitter posts is completely misleading.

And how old are the brave newbies by now?
They are getting there!


Eh, somewhat. If Low Sec and NPC null had more accessible income so new groups could settle in them and enjoy small gang fights and whatnot, the game's ecosystem would be far healthier. The emphasis is going to be where new players can set up and have fun easily, and if big blocks give them ships and a flag to fight for, they are naturally going to shift or keep the emphasis on null.

As always, the solution to so many things is to buff NPC null and low.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#345 - 2015-04-13 01:21:20 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Jenshae Chiroptera
#346 - 2015-04-13 01:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
I think something that is on topic was nuked.

The NPC stations to bank ISK, the worm holes to print ISK, Low Sec or Worm Holes to make capitals are all still there. The huge pool of players (70%+) are still there in High Sec.

It is in peoples' heads that they can't go out and conquer space.
CCP can not code a fix for that.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#347 - 2015-04-13 02:06:40 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I think something that is on topic was nuked.

The NPC stations to bank ISK, the worm holes to print ISK, Low Sec or Worm Holes to make capitals are all still there. The huge pool of players (70%+) are still there in High Sec.

It is in peoples' heads that they can't go out and conquer space.
CCP can not code a fix for that.


Agreed, there is no code fix for it but a false notion is, the 70% sit in high sec, always have and never tried to 'conquer space'. Most have, several times and found it to be bait and switch in one form or another. All through the many years of shell game CCP play, that never changes.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2015-04-13 06:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
What will save the shrinking sandbox will be a HBO and the Eve of Thrones a space game of thrones version. lets see if AAA Valkyrie will attract more new players its a gamble due you must purchase a VR Headset.This might stop from losing subscribers if they connect this to our present player GameBase is interesting I might say.I see some from the major alliances and corps jumping on this bandwagon.However we shall see i would rather see new empires emerge than the same old just adapting to CCPs changes. however Im aligning to creating real eve contacts in Las vegas perhaps to bring something fresh to the table The Crendravens and maybe some other clans for the sake of new content we shall see.
http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/01/eve-valkyrie-vr-interview-preview/

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Astro Dezus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#349 - 2015-04-21 19:03:17 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I think something that is on topic was nuked.

The NPC stations to bank ISK, the worm holes to print ISK, Low Sec or Worm Holes to make capitals are all still there. The huge pool of players (70%+) are still there in High Sec.

It is in peoples' heads that they can't go out and conquer space.
CCP can not code a fix for that.


Agreed, there is no code fix for it but a false notion is, the 70% sit in high sec, always have and never tried to 'conquer space'. Most have, several times and found it to be bait and switch in one form or another. All through the many years of shell game CCP play, that never changes.



To make good ISK (except salvaging or grinding 4s) you need at least 1 year worth or SP. The road to getting there can be filled with a lot of boredom and inactivity. For those who have not made a tremendous investment in this game, it is a tough sell to get them to commit with all the enjoyable options out there in the entertainment market.

So far since resubbing I have sat alone in a wormhole and been on null sec roam where all we do is roam. I will probably not be resubbing after this month and I know from experience most everyone online is an alt.

Money is power and it is too hard for casual players to get a lot of ISK, and a lot if ISK is needed. Also the game will not be around another 10 or probably even 5 years so now is the time to start selling skill points so people that do join now have a chance to experience everything.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#350 - 2015-04-21 19:26:21 UTC
Eve Solecist wrote:
Gee I wished people would stop talking about nullsec as if it was all of eve.
It's not. Reading these bitter posts is completely misleading.

And how old are the brave newbies by now?
They are getting there!


They live because nobody bothered to crush them. Having an arrangement with your enemy to have them not contest the final timer as long as you show up to be farmed every other timers is not "getting there"...
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#351 - 2015-04-21 19:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The NPC stations to bank ISK, the worm holes to print ISK, Low Sec or Worm Holes to make capitals are all still there. The huge pool of players (70%+) are still there in High Sec.

It is in peoples' heads that they can't go out and conquer space.
CCP can not code a fix for that.


There are a lot more variables than that.

For one thing, the nullsec alliances have quite a presence in high sec, to the point where, during the last big in-game event, the high sec fleets were so infiltrated with spies that they were doomed from the moment they undocked--even if they had, by some miracle, settled on a doctrine, which they didn't. Most high sec people don't know what a doctrine is. Or if CCP had reinforced the high sec nodes on the way to the destinations, which they didn't. Most high sec people have never encountered fleet-provoked time dilation. Because it takes a lot of organizational talent to make it in null, alts of null sec players have a very easy time getting into positions of influence and power in high sec. Are they going to apply that talent to take on their mains' alliances? No; in fact, they'll sabotage anything that threatens those alliances.

That's one variable. Another variable is the ornery introvert like me who don't want to be part of anything that big, and who don't care about planting flags. Or the person who doesn't want to be told what to fly, or what to do. Or the person who doesn't have hours to set aside. Or the person who plays to relax--which I don't 100% understand, in a game like EVE, but they're indisputably here.

I've voted against agreeing to rental contracts because I don't want the pressure of having to make X ISK per month, even if X is easy to achieve.

And that's OK. Sov null sec can be fun for the people who find it fun. People who don't find it fun can settle elsewhere.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#352 - 2015-04-21 23:04:46 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The NPC stations to bank ISK, the worm holes to print ISK, Low Sec or Worm Holes to make capitals are all still there. The huge pool of players (70%+) are still there in High Sec.

It is in peoples' heads that they can't go out and conquer space.
CCP can not code a fix for that.


And that's OK. Sov null sec can be fun for the people who find it fun. People who don't find it fun can settle elsewhere.

The problem is, Sov nulsec is becoming fun for less and less (groups of) players.
The only sure road to successfully living in sov nul is via one of the giant coalitions (as a member or aligned to) and as you said, not everyone wants to be just another number in fleet who is told what to fly and when. (Ishtars online has had its day and needs to go the way of Drakes online)

Sov space is unbalanced simply because so much space is controlled by large coalitions. The coming changes will do nothing to change that, CCP have no intention of changing that situation. The goal here is to look as though valid change can occur, whilst making as little as possible actual change. The bloks will no longer need to "hold" space to control it, a few entosis links ensures only those "allowed" to take sov in blok controlled space ever will.

Mini games to control sov will keep players interested for about as long as it takes to house train a puppy.
Back room agreements like those we see now will become even more essential to any group not aligned to one of the bloks.

Yes the Empire builders want content in sov nul (can't keep an idle empire from imploding for long) BUT they want it on their terms and that is exactly what CCP has handed them. A means to control Sov nul without having to pay sov bills on systems they never use.
New groups, big or small, may move to nulsec and plant flags but those flags will only remain as long as their nearest blok neighbour allows it.

With the new sov system revolving around multiple fleets engaging in different locations at the same time, the large groups have the win handed to them. The ONLY additional benefit to this style of fighting is to CCP themselves as it reduces server load on the nodes being contested.
Or does it? The large groups are still going to field fleets as large as they can to 1; Get the job done faster, 2; Involve more of their (bored and idle) line members, 3; Ensure the mini game goes in their favour.
Will the servers handle (without TIDI) 4 or 5 1,000 player engagements in one constellation simultaneously. I don't think CCP is Naïve enough to believe simply because something can be done with minimum numbers that it will happen that way.

CCP wants everyone to play as part of a group, be part of something bigger than oneself. All well and good for those who have no real identity and are happy to play their game as someone else dictates.
For Eve as a whole to grow and continue to compete in an ever growing market, devs need to stop making the game look pretty and concentrate on creating content for the bored masses. Visually the game is great but visual effects aren't why the majority login.

- - - - - - -
Jenshae; Yes they can. People have it in their heads because the game mechanics allow super groups to control so much space with sheer numbers. That is something CCP could fix by coding. A few tweaks to the way space is taken or held and the whole game changes along with peoples "heads" (perceptions on taking space).

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Beta Maoye
#353 - 2015-04-21 23:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Maoye
As someone already said, CCP employees depend on developing EVE for their livings. The stack is high for them. EVE is such a complex game that big change such as sov will cause unknowns and risks that even the most experienced devs may not foresee. It is not a small risk they are taking for the good of EVE. Almost everyone agreed the sov needs to be changed. but the opinions on how it should be changed is overwhelmingly diversified. Some want the sov change to favour attackers, others want it to give more protections to defenders. Some want it to provide more opportunities to small entities, others think it would be too much of a hassle to them. CCP has to sort out everything and try to find common grounds and balance among these different point of views. EVE is a PVP game by design. Players are competing each other for everything from space rocks to sovereignty in the space. The simultaneous questions of how to drawn in more players to bring life to space and how to keep everybody happy are difficult to solve and sometimes are just incompatible. No matter what design CCP will implement and how transparent the communication of change can be, someone gonna be unhappy.

This is a difficult time for players because the old rules are fading but the new framework has not been consolidated. Nobody know what exactly will happen after the change. I think CCP will monitor the status closely, listen to feedbacks and make adjustments to make sure the change meet the original objectives they had laid down.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#354 - 2015-04-22 00:35:22 UTC
Major blocks and allies have already started transforming in regard of june sov change. We already have a big picture of what would happen so you are free to develop plans a,b,c and so how it goes.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Jenshae Chiroptera
#355 - 2015-04-22 02:18:53 UTC
Brave has gone from being Provi's meat shield to being Goon's play thing / meat shield.
The Gorgon / Red alliance neutral state is shaping up for some grand extortion SOV rolling.
NC. well I think they might have caught a case of the carebear flu.

Yes, there will appear to be easy SOV systems to take. If the huge alliances and coalitions can't keep them though - why would you be able?
Honey traps for extortion or tear farming. "Pay us or we kick you out"

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#356 - 2015-04-22 02:57:30 UTC
Would it be surprise if one day you would know that Brave was only well planned creature of GSF? And it's not a surprise why they were at Catch and where they are going to next. Just a thought. And lychton is nothing else other than playing ceo online.

"Mighty" nc.dot probably lost it chance to catch the last train and jump on it. To be a landlord much more easier than an effective war block. They could be a same good as both legions but things turned different ways. Darkeshi has no balls of steel to manage a big piece of the pie.

N3 fail by it's nature.

And i will ignore "Test" cause it's test.

So i hope that ruski block could bring up some fresh content and will see how fast smaller dukes would try their teeth at nuli.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#357 - 2015-04-22 14:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The NPC stations to bank ISK, the worm holes to print ISK, Low Sec or Worm Holes to make capitals are all still there. The huge pool of players (70%+) are still there in High Sec.

It is in peoples' heads that they can't go out and conquer space.
CCP can not code a fix for that.


And that's OK. Sov null sec can be fun for the people who find it fun. People who don't find it fun can settle elsewhere.

The problem is, Sov nulsec is becoming fun for less and less (groups of) players.
The only sure road to successfully living in sov nul is via one of the giant coalitions (as a member or aligned to) and as you said, not everyone wants to be just another number in fleet who is told what to fly and when. (Ishtars online has had its day and needs to go the way of Drakes online)


But that runs into the problem, for which there is no mechanical fix, that with all else being equal a structured, well-supported and smartly pre-staged fleet will beat a kitchen sink fleet all day, every day. The more variance you allow in ships, the harder it is for the FC to do anything and the more of a burden falls on the individual pilot. I have an irrational love for armor-tanked blaster Vexors, but if I bring one to a shield rail Moa fleet the FC will hate me and I'll probably get primaried off the field, because that's what often happens to snowflakes. If not, I'll end up having to invent my own tactics, and while that might be LOL fun it will probably not be effective, nor will it support my corp. Kitchen-sink fleets are OK when you have small groups of skilled veterans, or a drunken horde whose only goal is to go up in a huge fireball.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sov space is unbalanced simply because so much space is controlled by large coalitions.


There is no realistic ruleset under which that is not true. However, by making buffer space much more difficult to hold, CCP is making coalitions less attractive. You can be sure that the leaders of any coalition have at least one member that they're only dealing with because of a perceived need. Take that need away and the coalition fractures. (RIP, Fatal Ascension.) That's the only lever that CCP has: if people want to ally, they will, even if that alliance is not supported by a single in-game mechanic.

As for small holders, there's simply no way that they can take and hold space against vastly larger powers. Under the current system, they had to bend knee. Under a more flexible system they can be the reed instead of the oak, and spring back up after a larger force flattens them.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Jenshae; Yes they can. People have it in their heads because the game mechanics allow super groups to control so much space with sheer numbers. That is something CCP could fix by coding. A few tweaks to the way space is taken or held and the whole game changes along with peoples "heads" (perceptions on taking space).


You have Alliance A, who have n members, and Alliance B, who have 10n members. Under what circumstances can you produce mechanics that benefit A but not B, given that B can split into 10 groups of n in game while still acting as a single unit where it actually matters: external voice comms, forums, Jabber, etc.?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Astro Dezus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#358 - 2015-04-22 15:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Astro Dezus
In the most general way I can think of putting it, the risk/reward has to be continued to be balanced. We don't station spin because there is little to do, but because there is nothing WORTH doing given the risk.

I also believe the large coalitions do not provide content, as much as they drain it out of the game. They are all mostly self-sufficient and invincible. They do not need what someone else has, nor do they need to work with others for any reason.
Not Amused Responsible
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#359 - 2015-04-22 19:07:37 UTC
I have watched, learned, played EVE off and on over the last 7 years and Eve community has educated me well over this time.

Why should anyone care?, well you shouldn’t, why do I care? Maybe because I can see that EVE Online can do better.

CCP have always implied that it provides the tools for the player base and it’s up to the community to use them, so if EVE is failing then it’s you in the community that has sealed its fate and as the saying goes, a bad workman always blames its tools.

This is only my opinion and many will say that EVE is doing better than ever and maybe it is for them, but I disagree with their opinion.

I hope CCP pays attention to this thread, there has been some great comments, it was great reading Mr Epeen but haven’t heard from him lately not sure why.

If my comments have interrupted your theadnought on Null sec then I apologise but it’s unlikely to have impact, but it might reach some community members that can make a difference.

I believe CCP should take more control over their game, reignite EVE Online spirit, bringing in a new influx of players, maybe a new approach as CCP did in 2008.

GL.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#360 - 2015-04-22 20:18:25 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
CCP has to shape the conditions in the sandbox universe so that more than 1 player can happily use the sand to do something with it, also players of different age need a meaningful way to play "together" without dividing the box. A virtually impossible endeavor requiring a constant flux of re-balancing. That said, I'm in general for simple (but effective) rules, but it's hard to find those in front of a bathful of criminal energy from thousands of experienced pixel warriors. Blink


Hmm, yeah, the problem has always been too much industrial espionage. Let's face it EVE offers the player a universe where all the others are limited to a mere planet.

Given enough time and teamwork, a nearly free wholly player driven content game can easily be corrupted to the detriment of its players. Limit the popularity, to increase revenue for other MMO's; all within the legal bounds of the gameplay. Therein lies the source of your problem.

Personally, I think CCP has done a tremendous job of maintaining their ideals. They created a Universe that they freely share.



Top it off, there are others on this planet who mean to 'control' the entirety of electronic systems because it is a source of uncontrolled information sharing. (Here I'm pointing 'judgement' at the US and UK; Guilty). They're using the python platform which the client is based on to access the background of the game. Hence, why all these old random accounts are being 'deleted' online lol... (I lost a shiny Marauder to three separate 'accessed' accounts once; it does happen) They have access to everything because they're not entering the system through a firewall. (their presence is accepted as if they were a part of the actual programming because they are entering from the source the game is built upon.) Personally, I find government computer nerds spend way too much paid time playing MMO's, they can't seem to distinguish from reality anymore. Just look at CCP's recent history and the why of certain actions and 'fixes' become clearer. (At least for me, I've watched them all and patiently waited)

A nuisance true, but one that ultimately serves a purpose. This is what CCP needs to do to evolve the game; create the 'grid' on python. Define the "Laws" of the Universe, then put the game on that so everything is predefined. Bonus: plug a leak. (the rest of the known world follows suit)

Is it going to be easy? Not normally since people don't tend to think in those terms when it comes to programming (I'm not even a programmer). Advantage: everything has already been done for you. (Your not creating, merely recreating in a more constructive manner)

Hmmm, what else? Long term: real world applications for your programming (you basically have a Universe simulator and a decade of statistical data of basic 3D interactions; remember in the real world flying cars are just around the corner.)

(Should help a lot if you can figure my meaning because it is very much possible.)

That's my two Isk...
-Ens


Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...