These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

First post First post First post
Author
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#221 - 2015-04-08 14:40:36 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Eve Solecist wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
A bit ironic how at one point a few years back, CCP Soundwave stated that Eve reached a point that losing players will not hurt. I wonder if they still believe that today.

This isn't what he actually said ...
... but I can't find the original line.

I know someone on the forums had it as signature ...


Yea, he was talking about "the players it's ok to lose", and I remember that the video of him saying it was on youtube but i can't find it either.

Anyways, "EVE is Dying" is just a manifestation of real life "doomsday predictions". This is why ever single year of EVE's existence, someone has predicted that "X game will kill EVE" (one of the funniest tigns I ever read was when someone posted a link to the old forums from 2003 in what had to be the very 1st "EVE is Dying" post lol).

CCP has made some changes that made it to where you don't need so many accounts (you can now train all your characters at once with the same amount of plex it would have taken to maintain 3 accounts previously), and ended ghost training and so forth. And the price of plex and the official end of isboxer toleration has probably also had an effect.

All of those things weren't the 1st 'account extinction events' in EVE's history, I remember when Marauders were introduced how people notice a decline but didn't realize it was probably from people unsubbing salvage alts lol.

There is no real big indication of anything wrong, and it's kind of stupid to equate game changes you might not be in favor of (like fozzie-sov) with the end of EVE (side note, some did that with Dominion as well, proclaiming that "it will kill EVE by makign the game stagnant", it did make null sec stagnant and EVE is still here lol).


Anyways, it's all silly. Like i tell the guy with the "End is near" sign near where I work, i'll say it here: just sit back, relax, and if the world does end you'll be too dead to worry about it shortly after it happens.


The funny part of history is how every single MMO always have a "X will kill the game" crowd. No matter how big or small a game's community is, there will always be idiots thinking their pet problem will be the end of it. They are all always dying anyway.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#222 - 2015-04-08 14:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Eve Solecist wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
A bit ironic how at one point a few years back, CCP Soundwave stated that Eve reached a point that losing players will not hurt. I wonder if they still believe that today.

This isn't what he actually said ...
... but I can't find the original line.

I know someone on the forums had it as signature ...


Yea, he was talking about "the players it's ok to lose", and I remember that the video of him saying it was on youtube but i can't find it either.

Anyways, "EVE is Dying" is just a manifestation of real life "doomsday predictions". This is why ever single year of EVE's existence, someone has predicted that "X game will kill EVE" (one of the funniest tigns I ever read was when someone posted a link to the old forums from 2003 in what had to be the very 1st "EVE is Dying" post lol).

CCP has made some changes that made it to where you don't need so many accounts (you can now train all your characters at once with the same amount of plex it would have taken to maintain 3 accounts previously), and ended ghost training and so forth. And the price of plex and the official end of isboxer toleration has probably also had an effect.

All of those things weren't the 1st 'account extinction events' in EVE's history, I remember when Marauders were introduced how people notice a decline but didn't realize it was probably from people unsubbing salvage alts lol.

There is no real big indication of anything wrong, and it's kind of stupid to equate game changes you might not be in favor of (like fozzie-sov) with the end of EVE (side note, some did that with Dominion as well, proclaiming that "it will kill EVE by makign the game stagnant", it did make null sec stagnant and EVE is still here lol).


Anyways, it's all silly. Like i tell the guy with the "End is near" sign near where I work, i'll say it here: just sit back, relax, and if the world does end you'll be too dead to worry about it shortly after it happens.


The funny part of history is how every single MMO always have a "X will kill the game" crowd. No matter how big or small a game's community is, there will always be idiots thinking their pet problem will be the end of it. They are all always dying anyway.


What's funnier is that EVE will kill WoW any day nowBig smile... Oh wait

But yea, every single game I've ever played had those types. It seems like a kind of anxiety to me.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2015-04-08 15:01:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Eve Solecist wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
A bit ironic how at one point a few years back, CCP Soundwave stated that Eve reached a point that losing players will not hurt. I wonder if they still believe that today.

This isn't what he actually said ...
... but I can't find the original line.

I know someone on the forums had it as signature ...


Yea, he was talking about "the players it's ok to lose", and I remember that the video of him saying it was on youtube but i can't find it either.

Anyways, "EVE is Dying" is just a manifestation of real life "doomsday predictions". This is why ever single year of EVE's existence, someone has predicted that "X game will kill EVE" (one of the funniest tigns I ever read was when someone posted a link to the old forums from 2003 in what had to be the very 1st "EVE is Dying" post lol).

CCP has made some changes that made it to where you don't need so many accounts (you can now train all your characters at once with the same amount of plex it would have taken to maintain 3 accounts previously), and ended ghost training and so forth. And the price of plex and the official end of isboxer toleration has probably also had an effect.

All of those things weren't the 1st 'account extinction events' in EVE's history, I remember when Marauders were introduced how people notice a decline but didn't realize it was probably from people unsubbing salvage alts lol.

There is no real big indication of anything wrong, and it's kind of stupid to equate game changes you might not be in favor of (like fozzie-sov) with the end of EVE (side note, some did that with Dominion as well, proclaiming that "it will kill EVE by makign the game stagnant", it did make null sec stagnant and EVE is still here lol).


Anyways, it's all silly. Like i tell the guy with the "End is near" sign near where I work, i'll say it here: just sit back, relax, and if the world does end you'll be too dead to worry about it shortly after it happens.


The funny part of history is how every single MMO always have a "X will kill the game" crowd. No matter how big or small a game's community is, there will always be idiots thinking their pet problem will be the end of it. They are all always dying anyway.


What's funnier is that EVE will kill WoW any day nowBig smile... Oh wait

But yea, every single game I've ever played had those types. It seems like a kind of anxiety to me.


That list of fails in the WoW thread is pretty good imo. We need to start building one with star citifail and fail : dangerous imo.

:D
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#224 - 2015-04-08 15:07:18 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


That list of fails in the WoW thread is pretty good imo. We need to start building one with star citifail and fail : dangerous imo.

:D


Off the top of my head and in addition to the ones you listed.

Star Fails: The Old RepubFail

Star Fails Galaxies

Star TreFail Online

Black PropheFail

JumpFail:Evolution

Coming soon: No Man's Fail

Twisted
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#225 - 2015-04-08 15:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Eve Solecist
I think ArchFail is missing. ^_^

You know, that pseudosandbox which is none. ^_^
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#226 - 2015-04-08 15:56:15 UTC
Eve Solecist wrote:
I think ArchFail is missing. ^_^

You know, that pseudosandbox which is none. ^_^


Don't be mean. The game might have been ******, but the forum was a good 6 months of solid hilarity Twisted
Jenshae Chiroptera
#227 - 2015-04-08 16:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yea, he was talking about "the players it's ok to lose", and I remember that the video of him saying it was on youtube but i can't find it either.
Anyways, "EVE is Dying" is just a manifestation of real life "doomsday predictions". This is why ever single year of EVE's existence, someone has predicted that "X game will kill EVE" ....
Yay.
Another, looooong bait posts on one of Jenn aSide's pet topics with nothing new, only it is written in a different structure and order. So, thrilled. Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#228 - 2015-04-08 16:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yea, he was talking about "the players it's ok to lose", and I remember that the video of him saying it was on youtube but i can't find it either.
Anyways, "EVE is Dying" is just a manifestation of real life "doomsday predictions". This is why ever single year of EVE's existence, someone has predicted that "X game will kill EVE" ....
Yay.
Another, looooong post of one of Jenn aSide's pet topics with nothing new, only it is written in a different structure and order. So, thrilled. Roll


This is the kind of post you get from butt hurt people who know they got schooled on an internet forum. Not even a single attempt to prove anything i said wrong. And by one of the most prolific "EVE is dying because CCP's not doing what I want" posters as well.

Perfect. Who says you can't win on the internet? Twisted
Jenshae Chiroptera
#229 - 2015-04-08 16:12:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Not even a single attempt to prove anything i said wrong.
Why? It is another of your bait posts. You just want to argue over and over about the same things like those people with their angels on a pin head. Boring.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#230 - 2015-04-08 16:38:25 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Not even a single attempt to prove anything i said wrong.
Why? It is another of your bait posts. You just want to argue over and over about the same things like those people with their angels on a pin head. Boring.


The idea that posting an insight (in this case, about why people incorrectly predict things out of some kind of anxiety) is "bait" for something demonstrates a whole lot about you. That #1.

#2 is that if it was some kind of bait post (and I'm still trying to figure out exactly who ore what you think I was trying to bait), YOU replied to it. If you think something is some kind of bait, why in the hell would you reply to it? That makes as much sense and trying to investigate a mine field by driving your car over it.


TL;DR I know from seeing your posts and your csm 'campaign' that you have 'issues' but still ...WTF is wrong with you lol?
Prt Scr
569th Freelancers
#231 - 2015-04-08 19:56:18 UTC
I think we have all seen the gradual reduction in player numbers online...if it continues eve will certainly be dead within a few years. CCP are trying hard to get more new players and as ever they have a hard time keeping them. I know the internet is the natural home to trolls and cyberbullys and a great number of them migrate to eve. Its harsh unforgiving nature is manna to them.

I have been looking at the metrics and trying a little out of the box thinking, and am sorry to say that i believe the largest single reason for non player retention is P.L.. I respect and understand that they are 'lete' (lol) but their continual clubbing of baby seals is bad for eve in many ways. I believe they will cry longest and loudest when eve finaly is closed even though they are the major cause.

Case in point; the continual campaign against brave newbies, for the simple reason that the result is obvious before the start , they will win. If it ever looks like they wont then they just drop the supers. Now that they have won they are spinning' woops didn't want that win..wheres our content gone?' In doing so they have driven ( by my estimate 18,000 accounts from the game). I know a lot of those accounts would have quit anyways but feel a good proportion would have continued in game if they felt that they could actualy achieve something worthwhile. PL need to grow up and if they want content attack someone who can put up a fight.

As much as i hate to say this, i believe that the best way to fight PL (unless you are the goons or maybe N3 ) is to deny them content. That is not to fight them ever, Let them take all your sov, kill your POS. just never fight them. They will get bored and go away. If everyone treats them like the bullies they are hopefully they will leave eve and allow new players a chance to play on their own terms thereby allowing the game population to grow and us all to enjoy eve for years to come.

uɐıssnɹ pɐǝɹ ʇ,uɐɔ ı ʇnq ʎɹɹos ɯ,ı

Jenshae Chiroptera
#232 - 2015-04-08 20:01:55 UTC
Prt Scr wrote:
Blaming Pandemic Legion for declining EVE numbers.
Null Sec is a hook with all the stories, it provides the dream but most of the players are in High Sec "not ready yet" to try other areas of space and "keep dying" so they stay there, get bored and quit.

The problem is knocking down the mental walls that imprison people in High Sec.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#233 - 2015-04-08 20:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Prt Scr wrote:
Blaming Pandemic Legion for declining EVE numbers.
Null Sec is a hook with all the stories, it provides the dream but most of the players are in High Sec "not ready yet" to try other areas of space and "keep dying" so they stay there, get bored and quit.

The problem is knocking down the mental walls that imprison people in High Sec.


Those walls are social, which is why I'm very much in favor of the general thrust of CCP's push to get new players into corps.

There are and have always been people who are happy to strike out into the unknown on day 1, or else sit down and painstakingly research a style of play until there's not much unknown about it. Those people are contentedly playing EVE right now. There are a lot of other people who are absolutely terrified of "doing it wrong." Corps give them two benefits:

1) if there are veterans in the corp, they have excellent support to help them do things competently, and to recover as well as possible from mistakes;

2) if there aren't, there's a considerable difference between dying in a fire alone in an 0.2 and dying in a fire with friends in an 0.2, and trying to learn from the loss is a bonding/learning experience.

I believe--and before someone jumps on me, yes this is a personal hypothesis based on gossamer evidence, not anything more or other than that--that the thing that makes low sec scary to certain new players is the same thing that makes war decs demoralizing to them: all of a sudden, all the rules are different, and all of a sudden any feeling that there's a safety net under you is gone. Now, this feeling can be hopelessly overwrought, and it's easily countered, especially if you have corpmates. But it seems to be quite real. The fear of playing a game where you don't know what the rules are, and loss is "real," is understandable.

As it is, the game does a terrible job of teaching the game, which is part of the problem, but the rest of the problem is that the game is complex and emergent enough that other players will always be able to do a better job than any tutorial system, once you get beyond teaching the absolute mechanical basics.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#234 - 2015-04-08 20:24:04 UTC
eve numbers... actual physical beings playing or accounts?

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

Prt Scr
569th Freelancers
#235 - 2015-04-08 22:43:13 UTC
by my estimate 18,000 accounts from the game


my bad, forgot to account for alts...so between 6,000 and 18,000 actual accounts

uɐıssnɹ pɐǝɹ ʇ,uɐɔ ı ʇnq ʎɹɹos ɯ,ı

Jenshae Chiroptera
#236 - 2015-04-09 00:37:30 UTC
Prt Scr wrote:
by my estimate 18,000 accounts from the game
my bad, forgot to account for alts...so between 6,000 and 18,000 actual accounts

Quote:
As of May 6, 2009, Eve Online claimed to have more than 300,000 active subscriptions
Beginning in March 2006, CCP made a deal with Optic Communications to start working on bringing Eve Online to the Chinese gaming audience.
Prt Scr are you a Jenn aSide alt? P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Dantelion Shinoni
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#237 - 2015-04-09 01:59:49 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Null Sec is a hook with all the stories, it provides the dream but most of the players are in High Sec "not ready yet" to try other areas of space and "keep dying" so they stay there, get bored and quit.

The problem is knocking down the mental walls that imprison people in High Sec.


Those walls are social, which is why I'm very much in favor of the general thrust of CCP's push to get new players into corps.

There are and have always been people who are happy to strike out into the unknown on day 1, or else sit down and painstakingly research a style of play until there's not much unknown about it. Those people are contentedly playing EVE right now. There are a lot of other people who are absolutely terrified of "doing it wrong." Corps give them two benefits:

1) if there are veterans in the corp, they have excellent support to help them do things competently, and to recover as well as possible from mistakes;

2) if there aren't, there's a considerable difference between dying in a fire alone in an 0.2 and dying in a fire with friends in an 0.2, and trying to learn from the loss is a bonding/learning experience.

I believe--and before someone jumps on me, yes this is a personal hypothesis based on gossamer evidence, not anything more or other than that--that the thing that makes low sec scary to certain new players is the same thing that makes war decs demoralizing to them: all of a sudden, all the rules are different, and all of a sudden any feeling that there's a safety net under you is gone. Now, this feeling can be hopelessly overwrought, and it's easily countered, especially if you have corpmates. But it seems to be quite real. The fear of playing a game where you don't know what the rules are, and loss is "real," is understandable.

As it is, the game does a terrible job of teaching the game, which is part of the problem, but the rest of the problem is that the game is complex and emergent enough that other players will always be able to do a better job than any tutorial system, once you get beyond teaching the absolute mechanical basics.


So now, as someone who is still new to the game this is certainly a stupid thing to expose myself to the forums that early, I'd usually lurk around a couple months to avoid saying too many foolish things.

But I think my opinion has more value as a new player than as the future grizzled veteran I could become.

Pretty much I strongly agree with your points, the importance of the corps and the sudden disappearance of the safety net. I was lured to the game when I actually realized that this was the only MMO out there that allowed you to actually build an "empire", militarily and economically, and I bet the multiple stories of the Goons and others Alliances and their clashes have attracted a lot of others to this game.

All I can say about the difference between high-sec and low is simple.

Until you have a corp you have no place in low-sec.
Worse, until you have a corp, you have not really started the game yet.

I can clearly see the difference between my first days in high-sec and the little time I spent in low-sec with a FW corp. High-sec is more like a giant tutorial, but one that only have 1/5 of it actually covered as a tutorial. You speak with Aura, do the carrier missions and then you think you are done but you actually aren't, you are still stuck in that zone that has no PvP, and no group of players with you.
And when people get sick of "tutorial"-sec and want to go after what lured them into the game, the wars, the real PvP, they try to check low-sec, and get ganked and demolished, and then wonder what the hell is so good about that game.

Well what is so great about that game is when you fly with other capsulers. This is where the PvP happens and when the risks/rewards of the game start to make sense. Lost your ship? Your corp can provide and help, they can even explain what the heck just happened to you.

The corps are the safety net players need. They are what would make a typical MMO player go from "OMG I lost everything!!" to "Ah! Dammit he got me good!", they are the best NPE, noo tutorial will teach players better than a corp.

I also like that example of Kira Tsukimoto of Brave (and yes I'm aware of the... difficulties probably surrounding her right now, I'm that new and yet even I heard about it...), as she said spaceships were not her thing but as soon as she joined a corp, hooked!!

This is what any player without a corp is missing, this is why they are stuck in high-sec, and this is why some of them quit. The only playstyle that works well solo is that of a ganker and only a tiny part of those who try a new MMO are of this inclination.

From my experience, after years of searching for a MMO after the usual WoW then hype-hoping from one game to the other, EVE is the only that made me realize what I was missing from WoW, a game with a goal, that asked for hard work and smarts, and that worked so well when you played it with others. A community of communities, one server, real reputations, compare that to "playing with countless unknown players that could be replaced by bots"-WoW and this is why I believe that this game will succeed in the years to come.

Despite the pessimism in this thread I believe if they nail the changes to null-sec, and they probably will, and make sure every player has a chance to get out of high-sec and get closer to null-sec, those numbers you are all discussing will keep rising, a lot.

The only advice I could give is to add an activity in high-sec that would put people together and make them act as a fleet for a time, it would introduce new players to being part of a fleet and make them meet people which then could lead to joining a corp,
and finally start the game.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#238 - 2015-04-09 02:16:08 UTC
Dantelion Shinoni wrote:

What?ShockedSmileBig smileBlink


Welcome to the forums newbro! Here, have a like for your wall-of-text.
You're already 'getting it'P
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#239 - 2015-04-09 07:02:33 UTC
Prt Scr wrote:
I have been looking at the metrics and trying a little out of the box thinking, and am sorry to say that i believe the largest single reason for non player retention is P.L.. I respect and understand that they are 'lete' (lol) but their continual clubbing of baby seals is bad for eve in many ways. I believe they will cry longest and loudest when eve finaly is closed even though they are the major cause.

Case in point; the continual campaign against brave newbies, for the simple reason that the result is obvious before the start , they will win. If it ever looks like they wont then they just drop the supers. Now that they have won they are spinning' woops didn't want that win..wheres our content gone?' In doing so they have driven ( by my estimate 18,000 accounts from the game). I know a lot of those accounts would have quit anyways but feel a good proportion would have continued in game if they felt that they could actualy achieve something worthwhile. PL need to grow up and if they want content attack someone who can put up a fight.


As I said when you posted this as a (now locked) thread, no-one should be permitted a free pass "just because". It was Brave's choice to step in to the nullsec game, so it is entirely on their shoulders to survive it. "Expecting" to be left alone "because of the newbies" is a frankly pathetic standpoint, and anyone seriously argueing it should be ashamed of themselves. What pride is there in living in null if you are only there because everyone else "lets you" because they are made to "feel bad" if they take a swing at you. Other newbie-welcoming organisations have existed in null, and each of them had to man up and deal with the Lions and Wolves in their turn; some of them lived, some of them died, and that's how it should be.

It was far from a forgone conclusion with Brave, but they misplayed some of the hands they were dealt, I suspect, largely because they thought they would "be left alone because they are special". Well, newsflash, they aren't and they weren't. Now they have to pick it up, dust themselves down, and get back in the game if they have the stomach. And if they don't have the stomach, well, they wouldn't have been worth "leaving alone" anyway.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#240 - 2015-04-09 07:48:51 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Now they have to pick it up, dust themselves down, and get back in the game if they have the stomach. And if they don't have the stomach, well, they wouldn't have been worth "leaving alone" anyway.


I'm pretty sure the bigger question is, why would anyone want to actually play the sov game, at least in its present incarnation? It's crooked, but its the only game in town? It is literally un-winnable for a new participating entity, and you'd have to be foolish to consider otherwise.

Nawh. Brave succeeded in their mission statement to an extraordinary degree when they were young, and in Barleguet. Fun was indeed maximized per hour, for literally everyone that came into contact with that system. They did exactly what they set out to do. The moment they left an environment where success was possible, especially considering that success has a much more rigid definition in the sov game, its not surprising what happened.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?