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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW PVP questions

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Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#21 - 2015-03-30 17:37:36 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
if you don't want stabbed farmers, support the threads which mention plex timer resets whenever they periodically come up.

since they fix the problem at its core. The only way to fix it is to make running away less profitable than fighting and attempting to hold the grid.


It will never be more profitable to risk exploding when it comes to FW plexes.

The complaints about stabbed farmers, I feel like, come from the dudes trying to get ganks in backwater systems. Coming from an alliance with a very large TZ hole I know the pains of plexing happening during my off time, and we do begrudge the farmers but ultimately what blocks them is a culture shift on our part and a focus on occupying the FW space we lay claim to. What happens in back end systems doesn't matter. And in FW what makes a system important is generally who lives near by.

I often encounter people who don't want to fight me. Sometimes I am sneaker than them and make them fight me. Sometimes I am not. That is the way PVP works, I do wish unfit or non combat ships didn't have an impact on WZ control, but the easiest way to counter that is with pilots in space shooing them away.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#22 - 2015-03-30 18:26:47 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
if you don't want stabbed farmers, support the threads which mention plex timer resets whenever they periodically come up.

since they fix the problem at its core. The only way to fix it is to make running away less profitable than fighting and attempting to hold the grid.


It will never be more profitable to risk exploding when it comes to FW plexes.

FW LP payouts allow to finance your pvp while plexing. It is possible since i for example have more lp as i actually need to cover my losses, and i don't even do FW missions which are the fastest way of getting LP.

if you lose all plexing progress if you run away. You can just as well stay and try to fight. Since suddenly things like stabs and cloaks don't become relevant anymore.

Look what CCP did:
- they gave npcs 0 dps output to not influence PVP (thats good i guess but it didn't bother me before)
- they made npcs respawn and transformed them into a dps test (the more dps your ship has the faster you can farm (-> stabs are a little disadvantage since they use up low slots which could be used for dps mods))
- oh yeah the decloak thing which was a joke IMO, it hurts more as it fixes things, esp since it fucks up the overview (try to orbit the button and see what happens)

this worked for about 1 week till everyone just began to use algos or high dps ships like worms for half-afk farming. The fact that you can now use trial accounts for FW doesn't healp eather

it all didn't fix the actual problem which is: you keep all your plexing progress when you run or.. hide.

What is plexing? It forces you to stay in space, hold the grid and be a target for your enemy while contesting hostile space. If you can't hold the grid, you should not be able to plex and influence docking rights of your enemy (speak: kick him out of system). It still isn't working.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#23 - 2015-03-30 18:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
oh i forgot to mention one thing: FW has a huge reputation problem.

Farmers are the reason for it. Some say if you kill farmers you will kill off FW since nothing will be left. I disagree. Since if the plexing mechanics would work you would expect to have an influx of players which join for a steady, fun, arcade-like conflict between two factions.

plexes are eve's version of a matchmaker. Currently the other party quits the game when you join the match. THATS HOW BROKEN IT IS. (but this being said: fw mechanics are in better shape as they ever were ;) )

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Syrilian
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-03-30 19:38:56 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
oh i forgot to mention one thing: FW has a huge reputation problem.

Farmers are the reason for it. Some say if you kill farmers you will kill off FW since nothing will be left. I disagree. Since if the plexing mechanics would work you would expect to have an influx of players which join for a steady, fun, arcade-like conflict between two factions.

plexes are eve's version of a matchmaker. Currently the other party quits the game when you join the match. THATS HOW BROKEN IT IS. (but this being said: fw mechanics are in better shape as they ever were ;) )



In my experience, if you want a fight in Eve, you can find one. The problem with anti-farmer argument is that they always say that no one wants to fight but what they really mean is "no one wants to fight me in a fight completely in my favor. Come here so I can wipe the floor with you."

I'm not going to fight your souped up slicer when I'm flying a tristan with low SP. Sorry. And it's not that I'm risk adverse but I'm not insane either. Nor do I think I should have to wait until have 100 percent perfect combat skills before I do FW.

Far as I can tell, FW has always been intended as an avenue to learn PVP, and one of the first things you learn is what fights to pick . So yeah, if you are a high SP character with a **** load of kills you are going to get choosing not to fight you in FW.

Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean its broken.
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#25 - 2015-03-30 20:25:38 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
if you don't want stabbed farmers, support the threads which mention plex timer resets whenever they periodically come up.

since they fix the problem at its core. The only way to fix it is to make running away less profitable than fighting and attempting to hold the grid.


It will never be more profitable to risk exploding when it comes to FW plexes.

FW LP payouts allow to finance your pvp while plexing. It is possible since i for example have more lp as i actually need to cover my losses, and i don't even do FW missions which are the fastest way of getting LP.

if you lose all plexing progress if you run away. You can just as well stay and try to fight. Since suddenly things like stabs and cloaks don't become relevant anymore.

Look what CCP did:
- they gave npcs 0 dps output to not influence PVP (thats good i guess but it didn't bother me before)
- they made npcs respawn and transformed them into a dps test (the more dps your ship has the faster you can farm (-> stabs are a little disadvantage since they use up low slots which could be used for dps mods))
- oh yeah the decloak thing which was a joke IMO, it hurts more as it fixes things, esp since it fucks up the overview (try to orbit the button and see what happens)

this worked for about 1 week till everyone just began to use algos or high dps ships like worms for half-afk farming. The fact that you can now use trial accounts for FW doesn't healp eather

it all didn't fix the actual problem which is: you keep all your plexing progress when you run or.. hide.

What is plexing? It forces you to stay in space, hold the grid and be a target for your enemy while contesting hostile space. If you can't hold the grid, you should not be able to plex and influence docking rights of your enemy (speak: kick him out of system). It still isn't working.


I will attempt to clarify the line you quoted.

If I am farming and someone attacks me I risk losing my ship. Or I could just fly away and not lose my ship. I would never argue that a pilot cannot sustain living in the WZ and only plexing and fighting, because I know for a fact one can. What I wanted to get across is that no solution designed to "make someone fight" will make someone fight if they don't want to. Which is why I would say more of a culture shift, rather than one of mechanics, be the solution to it.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#26 - 2015-03-30 21:08:16 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
it all didn't fix the actual problem which is: you keep all your plexing progress when you run or.. hide.
The actual problem was that afk farmers were influencing the system more than they should. That problem has been solved.


Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#27 - 2015-03-30 21:08:36 UTC
Plex timer rollbacks are definitely needed change. At fanfest pretty much the whole room at the lowsec / FW panel endorsed this change to CCP. I believed the same thing happened last year. Mebbe once they have Fozziesov implemented we will see timer rollbacks.

Cultural shift away from stabbed farming is also good. Seems like a lot of the people complaining about not getting the fights they want in FW aren't the groups who are most active in FW.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#28 - 2015-03-30 21:14:13 UTC
Plato Forko wrote:

2) unless someone from your side moves into the system right after it's been flipped, nothing will stop the target corp(s) from rebasing nearby and flipping the system back when the focus shifts to another system.

Whaaa??? You mean you actually have to DEFEND what you've conquered??!!! GET OUT OF TOWN!

That statement right there is the reason FW will never be as good as null sec. Roll
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#29 - 2015-03-31 02:23:35 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
it all didn't fix the actual problem which is: you keep all your plexing progress when you run or.. hide.
The actual problem was that afk farmers were influencing the system more than they should. That problem has been solved.

it was solved for about 10 days. till players adapted.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#30 - 2015-03-31 02:52:01 UTC
Syrilian wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
oh i forgot to mention one thing: FW has a huge reputation problem.

Farmers are the reason for it. Some say if you kill farmers you will kill off FW since nothing will be left. I disagree. Since if the plexing mechanics would work you would expect to have an influx of players which join for a steady, fun, arcade-like conflict between two factions.

plexes are eve's version of a matchmaker. Currently the other party quits the game when you join the match. THATS HOW BROKEN IT IS. (but this being said: fw mechanics are in better shape as they ever were ;) )



In my experience, if you want a fight in Eve, you can find one. The problem with anti-farmer argument is that they always say that no one wants to fight but what they really mean is "no one wants to fight me in a fight completely in my favor. Come here so I can wipe the floor with you."

I'm not going to fight your souped up slicer when I'm flying a tristan with low SP. Sorry. And it's not that I'm risk adverse but I'm not insane either. Nor do I think I should have to wait until have 100 percent perfect combat skills before I do FW.

Far as I can tell, FW has always been intended as an avenue to learn PVP, and one of the first things you learn is what fights to pick . So yeah, if you are a high SP character with a **** load of kills you are going to get choosing not to fight you in FW.

Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean its broken.


i learned pvp in FW. Back when the FW system was far worse than it is now. So i do know how it is for a low SP char to get winnable fights. At the same time it is far more rewarding once you manage to win a fight.

Your corp does it right. You guys group up if i remember correctly. I think i lost at least one confessor to your low-sp gang. When i was talking about farmers i didn't have you guys in mind - you can be sure about that.

I am wondering, why do you think game mechanics should let a militia member make progress, let him contest a system, earn LP, despite the fact that he run away. If you can't fight, so be it, you have to move on or group up, reship, whatever.

If you don't WANT to fight in general, you can still do FW pve.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-03-31 03:04:46 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
It will never be more profitable to risk exploding when it comes to FW plexes.

The complaints about stabbed farmers, I feel like, come from the dudes trying to get ganks in backwater systems. Coming from an alliance with a very large TZ hole I know the pains of plexing happening during my off time, and we do begrudge the farmers but ultimately what blocks them is a culture shift on our part and a focus on occupying the FW space we lay claim to. What happens in back end systems doesn't matter. And in FW what makes a system important is generally who lives near by.

I often encounter people who don't want to fight me. Sometimes I am sneaker than them and make them fight me. Sometimes I am not. That is the way PVP works, I do wish unfit or non combat ships didn't have an impact on WZ control, but the easiest way to counter that is with pilots in space shooing them away.

Man, it is so good to hear someone from the opposite side in this WZ talking the same way we do in BEBOP about WZ control, occupancy, limits of influence. I - and plenty others in BEBOP and GalMil - are very very glad to see what Templis has become, a CalMil powerhouse determined to live and fight in the WZ against all odds.

We are defined by our opposition, they are what push us and challenge us to become more than we used to be in this game. It's going to be very, very interesting to see how things evolve with the new, hardened CalMil around.

We are very very much looking forward to what challenges you bring next.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#32 - 2015-03-31 03:08:30 UTC
Moglarr wrote:

If I am farming and someone attacks me I risk losing my ship. Or I could just fly away and not lose my ship. I would never argue that a pilot cannot sustain living in the WZ and only plexing and fighting, because I know for a fact one can. What I wanted to get across is that no solution designed to "make someone fight" will make someone fight if they don't want to. Which is why I would say more of a culture shift, rather than one of mechanics, be the solution to it.

i fully agree, if someone does not want to fight, you can't force him to fight. At the same time he should not be able to influence the warzone with that strategy. Players join a war if they join FW after all. Thats exactly the reputation problem of FW i mentioned before.

Timer resets won't make your ship explode. If you are afraid to lose the ship you leave like you did before. Its just extremely inefficient to not fight in the long therm.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#33 - 2015-03-31 12:55:41 UTC
Syrilian wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
oh i forgot to mention one thing: FW has a huge reputation problem.

Farmers are the reason for it. Some say if you kill farmers you will kill off FW since nothing will be left. I disagree. Since if the plexing mechanics would work you would expect to have an influx of players which join for a steady, fun, arcade-like conflict between two factions.

plexes are eve's version of a matchmaker. Currently the other party quits the game when you join the match. THATS HOW BROKEN IT IS. (but this being said: fw mechanics are in better shape as they ever were ;) )



In my experience, if you want a fight in Eve, you can find one. The problem with anti-farmer argument is that they always say that no one wants to fight but what they really mean is "no one wants to fight me in a fight completely in my favor. Come here so I can wipe the floor with you."

I'm not going to fight your souped up slicer when I'm flying a tristan with low SP. Sorry. And it's not that I'm risk adverse but I'm not insane either. Nor do I think I should have to wait until have 100 percent perfect combat skills before I do FW.

Far as I can tell, FW has always been intended as an avenue to learn PVP, and one of the first things you learn is what fights to pick . So yeah, if you are a high SP character with a **** load of kills you are going to get choosing not to fight you in FW.

Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean its broken.


Just because you like the system does not mean it is not broken.

The anti-farmer argument is valid when you consider:
1. FW complexes are designed in the game as conflict drivers
2. Eve design is supposed to be founded on "a greater reward for a greater risk"
3. Eve design is supposed to be founded on "there is a cost to your actions" and "the cost is high (HTFU)"
4. Armies don't bring their farmers to harvest inside a warzone they send the troops in to secure it. The farmers are behind enemy lines cooking soup.

Sensible game design would employ the philosophy "how do I attract the most gamers (and therefore the most game play styles) and make the experience fun".

FW still needs are rebalance. The number one change I would recommend is a narrowing of the range of penalty/bonus to LP from the Tier levels (and perhaps a removal of Tier bonus's to FW Missions).

Timer rollbacks have merit. If a pilot chooses to run from the enemy "contesting" a plex and leave it empty then there should be a cost (see 3 above)

If a corp plants a POS to moon mine a resource they have to invest in a POS and modules and plant it (and of course remove the current POS with force) and then defend it or they lose all they invested and the potential harvest as well (see 2 & 3).

Hisec missions are for low risk, low investment rewards. Lets see some sensible approaches to low sec and null sec rewards (don't start me on hisec Incursions).

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Syrilian
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-03-31 13:49:33 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Syrilian wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
oh i forgot to mention one thing: FW has a huge reputation problem.

Farmers are the reason for it. Some say if you kill farmers you will kill off FW since nothing will be left. I disagree. Since if the plexing mechanics would work you would expect to have an influx of players which join for a steady, fun, arcade-like conflict between two factions.

plexes are eve's version of a matchmaker. Currently the other party quits the game when you join the match. THATS HOW BROKEN IT IS. (but this being said: fw mechanics are in better shape as they ever were ;) )



In my experience, if you want a fight in Eve, you can find one. The problem with anti-farmer argument is that they always say that no one wants to fight but what they really mean is "no one wants to fight me in a fight completely in my favor. Come here so I can wipe the floor with you."

I'm not going to fight your souped up slicer when I'm flying a tristan with low SP. Sorry. And it's not that I'm risk adverse but I'm not insane either. Nor do I think I should have to wait until have 100 percent perfect combat skills before I do FW.

Far as I can tell, FW has always been intended as an avenue to learn PVP, and one of the first things you learn is what fights to pick . So yeah, if you are a high SP character with a **** load of kills you are going to get choosing not to fight you in FW.

Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean its broken.


i learned pvp in FW. Back when the FW system was far worse than it is now. So i do know how it is for a low SP char to get winnable fights. At the same time it is far more rewarding once you manage to win a fight.

Your corp does it right. You guys group up if i remember correctly. I think i lost at least one confessor to your low-sp gang. When i was talking about farmers i didn't have you guys in mind - you can be sure about that.

I am wondering, why do you think game mechanics should let a militia member make progress, let him contest a system, earn LP, despite the fact that he run away. If you can't fight, so be it, you have to move on or group up, reship, whatever.

If you don't WANT to fight in general, you can still do FW pve.


I guess I have a different definition of what farming is. I can see how encountering someone who never has any intention of fighting in FW at all can be frustrating. But I was just concerned that farming including the people like me that run away when soloing because I dont want to get into a fight I know I am going to lose.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#35 - 2015-03-31 15:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Bienator II wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
it all didn't fix the actual problem which is: you keep all your plexing progress when you run or.. hide.
The actual problem was that afk farmers were influencing the system more than they should. That problem has been solved.

it was solved for about 10 days. till players adapted.
Farmers have neglible influence in populated systems.
Edit: BTW, timer rollbacks would work too. Would welcome that feature.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#36 - 2015-03-31 15:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Just because you like the system does not mean it is not broken.

The anti-farmer argument is valid when you consider:
1. FW complexes are designed in the game as conflict drivers
2. Eve design is supposed to be founded on "a greater reward for a greater risk"
3. Eve design is supposed to be founded on "there is a cost to your actions" and "the cost is high (HTFU)"
4. Armies don't bring their farmers to harvest inside a warzone they send the troops in to secure it. The farmers are behind enemy lines cooking soup.
Do you get these "design philosophy goals" from propoganda videos?
1. Anything in Eve can only be a conflict driver if both sides decide to engage. This includes low sec anomalies, belts, missions, etc... not just FW plexes.
2. Sure it is. Yup. That's why the game has so many different ways to opt out of conflict.
3. The reality everywhere in this game is the exact opposite. It's not hard to join the status quo. It's not hard to reap rewards for doing so.
4. Armies use their low skill auxiliary forces to secure the backlines (afk deplexing alts), and they don't send their high-value troops to secure areas that are not defended by anyone (nearly afk farmers in tristans). See, I can play "Eve is RL " too. Lol
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#37 - 2015-03-31 16:36:10 UTC
Yeah you bought number 4. and jumped straight in. P

X Gallentius wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Just because you like the system does not mean it is not broken.

The anti-farmer argument is valid when you consider:
1. FW complexes are designed in the game as conflict drivers
2. Eve design is supposed to be founded on "a greater reward for a greater risk"
3. Eve design is supposed to be founded on "there is a cost to your actions" and "the cost is high (HTFU)"
4. Armies don't bring their farmers to harvest inside a warzone they send the troops in to secure it. The farmers are behind enemy lines cooking soup.
Do you get these "design philosophy goals" from propoganda videos?
1. Anything in Eve can only be a conflict driver if both sides decide to engage. This includes low sec anomalies, belts, missions, etc... not just FW plexes.
2. Sure it is. Yup. That's why the game has so many different ways to opt out of conflict.
3. The reality everywhere in this game is the exact opposite. It's not hard to join the status quo. It's not hard to reap rewards for doing so.
4. Armies use their low skill auxiliary forces to secure the backlines (afk deplexing alts), and they don't send their high-value troops to secure areas that are not defended by anyone (nearly afk farmers in tristans). See, I can play "Eve is RL " too. Lol



Mmm Hmmm, yuh... ....and none of your usual GalMil spin disagrees with the point of view that Timer Roll backs and some other appropriate changes would be good.

That no risk FW Plex LP farming (perma evasion) should not get the reward it currently gets at no risk.

X Gallentius wrote:
Edit: BTW, timer rollbacks would work too. Would welcome that feature.


FW could still do with a number of "adjustments" as it is not currently in balance. I do concede that it is still in a better place than when I joined it and has been moving in the right direction.... ...Credit where credit is due (the anti-cloak mechanism was a balls up though).

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Arla Sarain
#38 - 2015-03-31 16:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Not gonna say timer rollback would be bad from a farming perspective.

But it's going to promote simply pouring the most people you can into a plex from sov perspective.
Now you can slow your enemy down and do all sorts of machinations, none of which would be valid anymore if timers were reset.

Would just make it impossible for the underpopulated side to progress the system contest state in their favour.

Maybe if rats were inverse of what they are now - high damage but 1 shottable. Stabbed plexers need to lock, time it takes to lock the rat would cost the farmer HP. Eventually it would have to either warp out or risk dying.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#39 - 2015-03-31 16:47:20 UTC
I'm not sure if timer rollbacks are really needed anymore after the other changes to plexes and plex rats, let alone being desirable.

Vets already have a hard enough time with the current ship meta if they want to solo/micro gang in non-faction T1 hulls, let alone how difficult it must be for new bros.

Novice: Garmur/Worm
Small: T3 Dessie
Medium: Combat Recon

I fought against just loading up on the OP ships, but I'm now giving in and working on getting the last of my T1 solo ships blown up so I can convert my inventory to the above listed ships. I would have converted to them way sooner if there were timer rollbacks, even though it means getting fewer fights.

JUSTK is recruiting
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#40 - 2015-03-31 17:57:06 UTC
In regard to timer rolls backs... it already exists. It is called sitting in a plex. If you really want to block that farmer from plexing, then close his plex. Simple as that. A timer passively resetting with no pilot involved is lame. If you care that much about the contested level of a system you should be willing to spend ~10 minutes hanging out undocked in it where someone could come and shoot at you. Do it often and regularly enough and people might actually attack you too because they want you to stop closing plexes.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!