These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Wardec matters once again

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ix Method
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-03-26 13:44:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Precisely - what I'm saying here is that if we slant it so the defenders have an onus to undock and fight we must also apply that to the attackers.

I know what you're saying and am disagreeing. The whole purpose of wars are an aggressive act to remove someone's advantage, its not a medieval duel.

Travelling at the speed of love.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-03-26 13:47:10 UTC
Why stop there then, have the attackers get a big "force undock" button so they can line up for the duck shoot.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-03-26 14:10:41 UTC
Because stupid slippery slope arguments are stupid.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#24 - 2015-03-26 14:17:32 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
There is no forcing people to fight. Mechanics that try to do so are futile in nature. What wars need are incentives for the players that use highsec to fight amongst each other. Make them want to fight.

He has this so close in the first sentence and then falls off the tracks in the second.

People who want to fight will IF they think they have a chance to succeed and it does not matter which side they are on.
The last WD in high sec one of my characters is in is perfect example. We used cloaked ships to scout them for 2 days, then ambushed them with an equal sized force. Catching them off guard camping a gate we quickly blew 2 of their 5 ships out of space and the rest of the corp docked up for the remainder of the dec. Yes they were failures allowing themselves to get caught but this does illustrate the point that no matter which side players are on they tend to stay safe and not engage until they are reasonably assured of success.

People who do not want to fight will not no matter what circumstances present themselves or what the game rules are.
This is basic human nature and there is nothing that any of you or CCP can do to change this so accept it.

I have posted this many times but it seem appropriate here.
One has to wonder what would happen if?

If these types of rules that aim to force players to fight were to become a thing, what would happen to all of the players that do not want to fight?

If they did leave the game as I suspect the vast majority of them would what happens to CCP and EvE?

More importantly what happens to all of these "PvP" players when they actually have to war dec other corps whose players and characters are trained and experienced in the ways of things PvP?
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#25 - 2015-03-26 14:19:50 UTC
I watch incursion runners so full of themselves act like their untouchable all the tme, some inc runners either stay in NPC corp or they drop 1 corp and remake a new corp, some even keep count of how many times they reformed to taunt the war decs.

I am for this but it has to be balanced with the fact that people will war dec numerous corps because "reasons"

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#26 - 2015-03-26 14:29:05 UTC
Agondray wrote:

I am for this but it has to be balanced with the fact that people will war dec numerous corps because "reasons"


Unlike you, I don't think player freedom is a bad thing.

If fixing wardecs means that there will be more wars, good. Some corps don't deserve to exist, and PvP is the highest retention rate for new players by leaps and bounds.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#27 - 2015-03-26 14:49:36 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
I know what you're saying and am disagreeing. The whole purpose of wars are an aggressive act to remove someone's advantage, its not a medieval duel.

No the whole purpose of wars in high sec is a free pass to shoot people without Concord intervention plain and simple. I am not saying that is bad, what I am saying is that trying to justify a HS WD as anything else is futile and useless.

A POS used to be a valid reason to WD a corp since it was so hard to keep standings up to place one. With the removal of standings a corp can easily defend their POS by simply taking it down for the duration and putting it back up when the WD is over, removal of the standings requirement has made this a viable alternative. So in the end a POS is a rather flimsy excude for a WD.

Can't mine moons in high sec so there is no fighting over that and this also plays into the just take the POS down for the duration thing.

A POCO is viable asset a high sec corp might have and they cannot just be taken down as you can with a POS. I think you would find that the corps that own POCO are willing and capable of mounting a defense of their property so you had better be one of those WD corps that really is in it for a fight if you Wd over a POCO.

Since there are no other assets that HS corp could have that you could shoot we end up where I started. The only real reason for a WD is as a free pass to shoot stupid people that allow themselves to get caught.

Yes HS WD are a broken mechanic, problem is I have no idea how to fix it that would not be worse. Players can and should have the ability to file a WD simply to shoot others without Concord intervention. But game balance and the need for CCP to protect their cash income demands that as long as you have that right, others have right to use actions to avoid that WD so they can continue to play a game they are paying for. In a nutshell there is the real root cause of the problems with HS WD, CCP must keep in mind the rights of ALL players to play a game they are paying for or risk losing a portion of their cash income needed to sustain the game.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-03-26 15:17:44 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
I know what you're saying and am disagreeing. The whole purpose of wars are an aggressive act to remove someone's advantage, its not a medieval duel.

No the whole purpose of wars in high sec is a free pass to shoot people without Concord intervention plain and simple. I am not saying that is bad, what I am saying is that trying to justify a HS WD as anything else is futile and useless.

A POS used to be a valid reason to WD a corp since it was so hard to keep standings up to place one. With the removal of standings a corp can easily defend their POS by simply taking it down for the duration and putting it back up when the WD is over, removal of the standings requirement has made this a viable alternative. So in the end a POS is a rather flimsy excude for a WD.

Can't mine moons in high sec so there is no fighting over that and this also plays into the just take the POS down for the duration thing.

A POCO is viable asset a high sec corp might have and they cannot just be taken down as you can with a POS. I think you would find that the corps that own POCO are willing and capable of mounting a defense of their property so you had better be one of those WD corps that really is in it for a fight if you Wd over a POCO.

Since there are no other assets that HS corp could have that you could shoot we end up where I started. The only real reason for a WD is as a free pass to shoot stupid people that allow themselves to get caught.

Yes HS WD are a broken mechanic, problem is I have no idea how to fix it that would not be worse. Players can and should have the ability to file a WD simply to shoot others without Concord intervention. But game balance and the need for CCP to protect their cash income demands that as long as you have that right, others have right to use actions to avoid that WD so they can continue to play a game they are paying for. In a nutshell there is the real root cause of the problems with HS WD, CCP must keep in mind the rights of ALL players to play a game they are paying for or risk losing a portion of their cash income needed to sustain the game.




Nobody lose their inerent right to play because they got war decced. You can still paly as much as you wish. You have to change your playstyle (somepeople might think this is unacceptable...) but there is nothing completely preventing you from playing under a wardec.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#29 - 2015-03-26 16:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ix Method
Donnachadh wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
I know what you're saying and am disagreeing. The whole purpose of wars are an aggressive act to remove someone's advantage, its not a medieval duel.

No the whole purpose of wars in high sec is a free pass to shoot people without Concord intervention plain and simple. I am not saying that is bad, what I am saying is that trying to justify a HS WD as anything else is futile and useless.

[stuff]

You seem to be implying that a free pass in general equates/leads to griefing? The act of declaring war provides no benefit to either side, the most competent side wins.

That some would rather whine than sort themselves out properly does not in itself make the mechanic faulty. That wars are infact a bit **** has nothing really to do with grief wars, nor that fact that the basic mechanic is a 'free pass.'

Travelling at the speed of love.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#30 - 2015-03-27 01:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Donnachadh wrote:
People who want to fight will IF they think they have a chance to succeed and it does not matter which side they are on.

Untrue. I would never fight with the corp I do industry in precisely because I have no reason to. I am more than capable of calling in friends for assistance and duking it out if that's needed. I do not because it's not only not necessary, but the wrong thing to do. Mercenary corporations are competent groups. If we lose a few ships all that would do is attract more wardecs.

Providing no kills and no fun is the premiere way to cause a minimal impediment on industrial operations. Therefore a smart player does not want to fight as it is counter to the safety of their operations. This is the problem with corporations that utilize the space right now.

Donnachadh wrote:
People who do not want to fight will not no matter what circumstances present themselves or what the game rules are.
This is basic human nature and there is nothing that any of you or CCP can do to change this so accept it.
Correct, but you're painting all these players with the same brush.
There are players that don't want to fight because they hate losing ships and there is no system that will make them undock. That was my first point in this thread.
There are also players that don't want to fight because they recognize it attracts more wardecs. They have nothing to defend, so why feed kills to PVP groups that are more competent than them?

Donnachadh wrote:
If they did leave the game as I suspect the vast majority of them would what happens to CCP and EvE?

More importantly what happens to all of these "PvP" players when they actually have to war dec other corps whose players and characters are trained and experienced in the ways of things PvP?

What I'm looking for is a system that promotes conflict between groups that use the space. I think you've misunderstood this point. I'm not trying to get carebears to line up for slaughter by the hand of mercenaries. I'm trying to find ways to get highsec corporations to fight amongst each other for greater advantages in using the space. I don't particularly care for how wardecs are right now. It's mostly farming easy kills. What I'd like to see is real conflict between space utilizing entities.

Donnachadh wrote:
If these types of rules that aim to force players to fight were to become a thing, what would happen to all of the players that do not want to fight?

Unless you are referring to the OP, no one here is suggesting that. We are suggesting giving players choices that incentivize them to fight. In my case, I am especially promoting fighting amongst eachother (indy corp vs indy corp). It's a choice that you don't have to make, so I take exception to the word "force".


Donnachadh wrote:
1) No the whole purpose of wars in high sec is a free pass to shoot people without Concord intervention plain and simple. I am not saying that is bad, what I am saying is that trying to justify a HS WD as anything else is futile and useless.

2) A POCO is viable asset a high sec corp might have and they cannot just be taken down as you can with a POS. I think you would find that the corps that own POCO are willing and capable of mounting a defense of their property so you had better be one of those WD corps that really is in it for a fight if you Wd over a POCO.

Since there are no other assets that HS corp could have that you could shoot we end up where I started. The only real reason for a WD is as a free pass to shoot stupid people that allow themselves to get caught.

1) You seem to be against ideas that make it more than that. I don't disagree with you on this, so why are against finding ways to add value to wars?

2) I think you're making my (maybe "our") point here. When there are assets worth defending players will form up and defend it. Not everyone and that's fine. The risk averse are not forced to partake. What POCOs did was they incentivized players - players that are largely not in mercenary or PVP corporations - to fight against other highsec corps in attack and defense of these structures. More assets, more meaningful wars and more reasons to undock to fight. Less assets, less meaningful wars and less reasons to undock to fight.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#31 - 2015-03-27 02:01:22 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
You seem to be implying that a free pass in general equates/leads to griefing? The act of declaring war provides no benefit to either side, the most competent side wins.

Actually you are wrong, neither side can ever win a HS WD because there is NOTHING to fight over or to fight for.
All there is in HW WD is potential kills to be gained by players who place value in a kill board. For those who do not care one single bit about a kill board there is nothing to gain from even thinking about fighting so they simply do not.

As to your assurance that the competent side will always win, that makes me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. When you WD a corp full of miners, haulers etc competence is not even a factor. All it takes is to be lucky that those you WD will be stupid enough to go out and play as usual. And even IF the defenders were competent to fight the attackers would simply dock up the moment the odds were not in their favor. In essence they do the same thing that they always complain about their targets doing.

But you do have me intrigued if you have a character that has 50 to 70 million skill points or more in the industrial side of the game and NOTHING in anyway that could support a PvP encounter, just exactly what are they supposed to do to "sort themselves" and be able to go out and fight?

And at it's core that is the major problem with HS WD. On the attacking side you have players who have spent time training skills both character and personal so they can fight effectively who then WD those that have no desire to fight, who have no training either character or personal to fight. And you WD supporters have trouble understanding why these folks do not want to un-dock and fight.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#32 - 2015-03-27 02:21:06 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo, first allow me to apologize to one and all if they believe I am attacking them personally as that is not my intention. I quote other peoples comments as a way of giving context to the comments I write.


McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
What I'm looking for is a system that promotes conflict between groups that use the space. I think you've misunderstood this point..

No I did not misunderstand your point.
Human nature is that there are those who will fight as long as there is some degree or chance that they can be successful or have something to gain from fighting. This group of players would likely find a well balanced system to be an enjoyable way to spend time in this game.

The other side of human nature is that there are those who will not fight no matter what you do. There is no system you can put in place, and there are no incentives you can offer that will EVER change this. In fact you yourself state that very clearly in the segment below where you indicate that there is little or no chance that your industrial character would ever engage in a fight during a WD as it wold be counter productive.

McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
People who want to fight will IF they think they have a chance to succeed and it does not matter which side they are on.

Untrue. I would never fight with the corp I do industry in precisely because I have no reason to. I am more than capable of calling in friends for assistance and duking it out if that's needed. I do not because it's not only not necessary, but the wrong thing to do. Mercenary corporations are competent groups. If we lose a few ships all that would do is attract more wardecs.


An d so we are still right back at the ages old problem in this game. In a broad sense you have those who want to fight coming to forums like this complaining about those who will not fight and posting and endless string of really bad ideas that would in some way force people to either fight, or sit in a station for the duration of the WD.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2015-03-27 03:20:07 UTC
You know I see a lot of truth on both sides of the argument here. And despite this being an NPC toon, yes, I have an alt in a corp, and have been both on the receiving end and giving end of these wardecs. A year ago when I first put an alt into a corp, it was the run-and-hide-at-wardecs sort. Nowadays that corp isn't exactly elite PvPers or anything, but they hold their own some of the time and do some wardecs of their own.

Moral of that story? Yes, bad corps might need to be squashed via wardecs if they can't handle it, but sometimes they just need time to grow and find their footing. Maybe.

Just remember that above all else, this is a video game. You cannot "force" people to do anything they are trying to do for recreation. So stop trying to beat wardodgers with a stick. Nobody shells out money to be beaten with a stick (well, maybe some exceptionally kinky fellows, but that's another topic). Trying to force anyone to do something they don't want to do, in a sandbox no less, will just result in less subs. So you can't force people to stay in corps, you can't force corps to stay together, you can't force them to come out and fight.

That said, I agree with what Kaarous said. It may be a simple assertion and I have no evidence to support his claim, but I fully believe that PvP is the biggest draw and retention factor of this game. But like a kid getting into a pool, you got to let people ease into it when they're comfortable, and that's different for every person. This is because again, you can't force something in a game.

All of that said, within my experience with my corp alt, it seems like wardecs are damn near perfectly balanced where they are. You can engage, or wait it out. You can drop corp, or duke it out. You can wardec for whatever reason you like or none at all. You can play with alts until the wardec is over, or just not log in at all if you have better things to do. You have a lot of options right now both as an aggressor (or potential aggressor), and as defender. And as a sandbox, I think that's a good thing for this game.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#34 - 2015-03-27 04:15:20 UTC
It would be too easy to troll with "no leaving" mechanics. People could invite new players, start a wardec, then ransom them to leave, then ignore them and laugh.

The only thing that doesn't quite work about wardecs is the purpose of them. It would be much more logical as a tool for forcing players to adapt to a changing circumstance rather than an empire wide mechanic. Very simply, costs should scale with the range of declarations. Declaring corps, even many corps, over a tiny range should be very affordable. This could make market hubs highly targetable.

As far as concord is concerned, we're all just street gangs. They and the station owners probably just want as little collateral damage from our activities as possible. Meanwhile, it's much more interesting to force rival gangs out of your neighborhood than to camp them into their cribs. With new structures on the way, the concept of developing or cultivating space becomes even more important.

Forcing other corporations into unfamiliar parts of empire is simply much better content than what we have now.
Whittorical Quandary
Amarrian Infinity
#35 - 2015-03-27 04:16:10 UTC
I think part of the appeal of HS wars are that the players there are usually weak, new players and industry players that can't really defend themselves.

There's an amount of pvp players that seem to hate the idea of HS players actually putting up a fight.

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine."

— Abraham Lincoln
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#36 - 2015-03-27 04:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Ix Method wrote:
All wars needed were assets or collaborative projects worth defending that couldn't be shuffled out of corps. It rather looks like we're about to get them.


except the attackers can use a neut corp that no one knows about for all of them and never have to risk them.

unless of course you make them a requirement before you make an outgoing dec. And then you can make it a 'defender victory' upon their destruction. Mercs suddenly become useful and cant scam defenders \o/

Donnachadh wrote:

He has this so close in the first sentence and then falls off the tracks in the second.


So just make competition more desirable. You dont have to go all the way to making everyone want to shoot eachother you can just make some people want to pay blood thirsty pirates to shoot people, and make profit from doing so.

Donnachadh wrote:

No the whole purpose of wars in high sec is to make a payment to allow two corps to shoot eachother without Concord intervention plain and simple. I am not saying that is bad, what I am saying is that trying to justify a HS WD as anything else is futile and useless.


FTFY

Donnachadh wrote:

Actually you are wrong, neither side can ever win a HS WD because there is NOTHING to fight over or to fight for.


Correct mechanically speaking...

Donnachadh wrote:

All there is in HW WD is potential kills to be gained by players who place value in a kill board. For those who do not care one single bit about a kill board there is nothing to gain from even thinking about fighting so they simply do not.


And then wrong...
There is actually the potential for anything that can come from the threat or act of violence.
ransom, area denial, theft, payment, pillaging...

its a fact that some corps make money from war decs.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Malcaz
Omni Paradox Securities
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#37 - 2015-03-27 07:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcaz
Maybe scale the cost of the wardec to the size. For a 1 man corp to dec a 5000 character alliance, it costs very little, for a 5000 man alliance to dec a 1 man corp costs billions.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#38 - 2015-03-27 07:20:14 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
WarDec mechanics could be changed to disallow WarDecs against smaller corporations or alliances. Smaller corporations or alliances would still be free to WarDec larger alliances or corporations.

Wow...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE
Eve is already too safe.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-03-27 08:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ix Method
Donnachadh wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
You seem to be implying that a free pass in general equates/leads to griefing? The act of declaring war provides no benefit to either side, the most competent side wins.

Actually you are wrong, neither side can ever win a HS WD because there is NOTHING to fight over or to fight for.
All there is in HW WD is potential kills to be gained by players who place value in a kill board. For those who do not care one single bit about a kill board there is nothing to gain from even thinking about fighting so they simply do not.

As to your assurance that the competent side will always win, that makes me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. When you WD a corp full of miners, haulers etc competence is not even a factor.

Jesus wept, okay if you want to talk like children lets go baby steps.

There is plenty to fight for even if you lack assets in space. If you're going to lose a few bill in income and a couple hundred hours fun as a corp during that week you have ample motivation to make the bad guys go away quickly, particularly given there's always another group sniffing around. The chances of you coming up against a corp that you can't either murder with masses of cheap ships or hire lovely mercs to kill are small and entirely reasonable, as they made the effort to be better than you.

After a war is declared it is an entirely neutral mechanic (at best) for the attacker, no advantages, nothing much of anything really. The most competent/lucky/ally-backed side will win.

There are plenty of indy corps who can and will fight back and then tend to do rather well for themselves long term. There are also those that eschew PVP, live in a quiet corner off the Amarr/Jita/Dodi/Rens route and barring bad luck will never be decced. Then you have those who mine Ice in Otela, talk **** in local or fly bling PVE ships but dock up and whine during wars. These guys will fall apart quickly and that's nothing to do with a mechanic.

There is a basic level of competence required to survive long term as a corp in Eve. It being a sandbox people are welcome to try to prove that wrong and other people are welcome to laugh at them while kicking over their sandcastles.

Competing is a fundamental part of the game and not the reason why wardecs are ****.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-03-27 11:14:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
I struggle to understand the moaning about wardecs to be honest.

Those who are in industrial corps that declare wardecs will fight if need be, if the enemy corp (most likely industrial too) dock up, tear down POS's etc then the wardec achieved it's goal by disrupting the competition.

Those who are in wardec corps who moan when the industrial corps dock up or jump corp tpo avoid it have nobody but themselves to blame. They can see from a corp history how they will behave in war. They also make the mistake of assuming that those who enjoy more PvE related gameplay will think 'Oh a wardec, I'd better undock to be shot to bits then'.

If these corps really want fights why do they not go and live in losec? Guranteed that people will come looking for fights there and it would bring more life to a region that players often maon is too quiet. No need to pay for wardecs for their fights either.

The wardec sysem works fine in the above sense, industrial groups can interfere with each others setups and avoid those that they have no wish to fight. A group simply looking for fights can't complain when another player uses perfectly viable methods to avoid that fight. In PvP terms they are thwarting the goals of the opposition by other means. Guns don't always bring the answer and lowec/null/WH's are there for those who want to fight for space.