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Wardec matters once again

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#181 - 2015-04-03 01:54:16 UTC
Just watch, next one of them will try to tell me that the very existence of alts justifies their dec dodge exploit.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#182 - 2015-04-03 02:02:36 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Never mind the sheer hypocrisy of actually telling me that PvP should be mandatory for everyone. My God how do you people live with yourselves?
And yet that is exactly what many of the PvP players have said here in this very topic.


Name three in-game activities that aren't PvP.


please define pvp, I like to hear your definition before answering.


I don't know what "pvp" is, but "PvP" only has one definition: Player versus Player.


BP Research, Manufacturing, and Invention. All are activities whether you admit to them or not.


When you manufacture you're competing with other manufacturers. Same with invention. I'll grant you that, in isolation, blueprint research in an NPC station isn't competitive now that we have unlimited slots, but what you then go on to do with the blueprint is also competition.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#183 - 2015-04-03 02:03:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just watch, next one of them will try to tell me that the very existence of alts justifies their dec dodge exploit.


Is that the same dec dodge that they cry about when James 315 (praise Him!) uses when his one-man corp gets an angrydec?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Madd Adda
#184 - 2015-04-03 02:03:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


It's not similar at all.

I'm not engaging in an income generating activity while sitting and scanning people. That's the important distinction. An income generating mechanic has to account for risk vs reward.


your income comes from what ever character you earn money on, it's not relevant if you give money/stuff to your scanning alt, it still earns something even if it's not tangible. I bet you even scoop your target's cargohold too, that's income from the stuff you get.

Quote:

No, they get invalidated as real players because they're hypocrites abusing an exploit or loophole, just like the ISBotters.


And your not exploiting a loophole using a neutral alt with the intention of warping in on another character to gank them? If they were abusing an exploit, then report them, let CCP decide what exploitation of the system means.

Carebear extraordinaire
Madd Adda
#185 - 2015-04-03 02:08:59 UTC
admiral root wrote:


When you manufacture you're competing with other manufacturers. Same with invention. I'll grant you that, in isolation, blueprint research in an NPC station isn't competitive now that we have unlimited slots, but what you then go on to do with the blueprint is also competition.


competing with other manufacturers, how? Making/Researching something for yourself isn't PvP, it's when you put the product on the market that it becomes competitive. Same logic goes with Invention, the only thing even resembling PvP is getting the relic.

Carebear extraordinaire
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#186 - 2015-04-03 02:10:08 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:

And your not exploiting a loophole using a neutral alt with the intention of warping in on another character to gank them?


They actually think this, ladies and gentlemen.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Madd Adda
#187 - 2015-04-03 02:19:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:

And your not exploiting a loophole using a neutral alt with the intention of warping in on another character to gank them?


They actually think this, ladies and gentlemen.


Then stop using an alt, warp out, scan down your quarry yourself. Hell get a buddy of yours to do that, I've seen CODE do that before. If alts aren't a loophole then mining alts aren't either.

Carebear extraordinaire
Jenshae Chiroptera
#188 - 2015-04-03 02:49:13 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Never mind the sheer hypocrisy of actually telling me that PvP should be mandatory for everyone. My God how do you people live with yourselves?
And yet that is exactly what many of the PvP players have said here in this very topic.
Name three in-game activities that aren't PvP.
My collection of useless items from special events.
My ship spinning.
Changing avatar's appearance.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#189 - 2015-04-03 02:54:04 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
My collection of useless items from special events.
My ship spinning.
Changing avatar's appearance.

I'll go you a few further:
• Clone jumping
• Self-destructing my stash of rookie ships
• Adding skills to my training queue

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#190 - 2015-04-03 03:14:50 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
My collection of useless items from special events.
My ship spinning.
Changing avatar's appearance.


A collection isn't an activity and some of us get very competitive over ship spinning.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:

I'll go you a few further:
• Clone jumping
• Self-destructing my stash of rookie ships
• Adding skills to my training queue


When you self-destruct you're generally trying to do it before another player can blap you.

You guys should keep on clutching at straws, though.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Madd Adda
#191 - 2015-04-03 03:22:03 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
My collection of useless items from special events.
My ship spinning.
Changing avatar's appearance.


A collection isn't an activity and some of us get very competitive over ship spinning.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:

I'll go you a few further:
• Clone jumping
• Self-destructing my stash of rookie ships
• Adding skills to my training queue


When you self-destruct you're generally trying to do it before another player can blap you.

You guys should keep on clutching at straws, though.


and you're producing technicalities to discredit something you know you got beat at

Carebear extraordinaire
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#192 - 2015-04-03 03:42:19 UTC
admiral root wrote:
When you self-destruct you're generally trying to do it before another player can blap you.

I'm trying to corner the market on Rookie ships. Big smile

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#193 - 2015-04-03 06:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Jobs raise the system cost index. It's PVP the moment you start a research, invention or manufacturing job. Your competitiveness in the market is also reliant on the research and manufacturing process.

PVE is PVP if the rewards are placed on the market. Sometimes that is not even a requirement. Mining is PVP when you deplete the ore levels in a belt. Exploration or site running is PVP when you despawn a site container or kill a rat.

-

There is an undeniable conclusion that comes from this. It's incorrect to say a solitary NPC miner does not engage in PVP. He is PVPing someone by mining a belt. The multiboxer he hates is PVPing him by depleting the belt in 20 minutes. When they sell there goods on the market they are engaged in PVP with dozens, hundreds or thousands of players. It's redundant to argue that they should be forced into wardecs on the basis that the game is a PVP sandbox. They are already engaging in PVP in the sandbox. It's just not the same kind of PVP as a wardec.

ISK earning and market affect are also questionable justifications for wardecs. Manufacturing, research and PI are bigger ISK earners than mining and mission running and affect the market more. They can be done with complete or relative safety from combat. You don't need to undock a single time to makes tens of billions in trading. You can do all your research and manufacturing without undocking yourself, hiring a courier in an NPC corp to move the goods for you. PI requires undocking but it's relatively safe if you put a small effort into scouting. This is why the justification falls on it's face. Absent of rebalancing manufacturing, research and PI so they cannot be done in complete safety against combat it's not consistent to propose wardecs on the basis of ISK generation when the biggest earners take no such risk themselves.

-

All that said not to be ignored is the larger point that highsec players make too much ISK for too little risk. The answer isn't to force them into combat, but their ISK earning is ruining the game's risk/reward balance. The base earnings in highsec for certain activities need to be pummeled with the nerf bat. By a designated hitter after his 5th cycle of HGH. You can then use structures or some other mechanics designated for corps to make back the difference. The consequence of that decision being you risk combat during wars.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
admiral root wrote:
When you self-destruct you're generally trying to do it before another player can blap you.

I'm trying to corner the market on Rookie ships. Big smile

That's PVP. Blink

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Black Pedro
Mine.
#194 - 2015-04-03 06:44:39 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:
[competing with other manufacturers, how? Making/Researching something for yourself isn't PvP, it's when you put the product on the market that it becomes competitive. Same logic goes with Invention, the only thing even resembling PvP is getting the relic.

Of course it is PvP, or at least affecting the overall economy. Every ship you build for yourself is one that you will not buy from the market and every mineral you use yourself is one that doesn't end up on the market. And even if you don't plan to sell the stuff you build, some ganker might blow you up and decide to sell it for you.

Of course you could come back and say that you never buy or sell things on the market, and never undock the things you build. But then you have identified yourself as an edge-case hermit not really playing the game as intended. Of course you can do this as Eve is a sandbox, but you shouldn't expect the game to be balanced around this atypical behaviour.

But more generally, I agree that safety for industrial (that is building things) corps are less of a problem as then tend to just shuffle resources around the economy. Don't get me wrong, they still need to be disruptable by competitors as this is a PvP game and that makes for more engaging gameplay, but much worse is having safety for activities that bring resources into the economy like mining, missioning, incursions and ratting.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Madd Adda
#195 - 2015-04-03 06:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Madd Adda
Black Pedro wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:
[competing with other manufacturers, how? Making/Researching something for yourself isn't PvP, it's when you put the product on the market that it becomes competitive. Same logic goes with Invention, the only thing even resembling PvP is getting the relic.

Of course it is PvP, or at least affecting the overall economy. Every ship you build for yourself is one that you will not buy from the market and every mineral you use yourself is one that doesn't end up on the market. And even if you don't plan to sell the stuff you build, some ganker might blow you up and decide to sell it for you.

Of course you could come back and say that you never buy or sell things on the market, and never undock the things you build. But then you have identified yourself as an edge-case hermit not really playing the game as intended. Of course you can do this as Eve is a sandbox, but you shouldn't expect the game to be balanced around this atypical behaviour.

But more generally, I agree that safety for industrial (that is building things) corps are less of a problem as then tend to just shuffle resources around the economy. Don't get me wrong, they still need to be disruptable by competitors as this is a PvP game and that makes for more engaging gameplay, but much worse is having safety for activities that bring resources into the economy like mining, missioning, incursions and ratting.


then every game in existence is pvp by the virtue of the possibility of pvp, even single player games since you can speedrun it.

Carebear extraordinaire
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#196 - 2015-04-03 07:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Madd Adda wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:
[competing with other manufacturers, how? Making/Researching something for yourself isn't PvP, it's when you put the product on the market that it becomes competitive. Same logic goes with Invention, the only thing even resembling PvP is getting the relic.

Of course it is PvP, or at least affecting the overall economy. Every ship you build for yourself is one that you will not buy from the market and every mineral you use yourself is one that doesn't end up on the market. And even if you don't plan to sell the stuff you build, some ganker might blow you up and decide to sell it for you.

Of course you could come back and say that you never buy or sell things on the market, and never undock the things you build. But then you have identified yourself as an edge-case hermit not really playing the game as intended. Of course you can do this as Eve is a sandbox, but you shouldn't expect the game to be balanced around this atypical behaviour.

But more generally, I agree that safety for industrial (that is building things) corps are less of a problem as then tend to just shuffle resources around the economy. Don't get me wrong, they still need to be disruptable by competitors as this is a PvP game and that makes for more engaging gameplay, but much worse is having safety for activities that bring resources into the economy like mining, missioning, incursions and ratting.


then every game in existence is pvp by the virtue of the possibility of pvp, even single player games since you can speedrun it.

There's more spin in this post than the contents of a TMC.com sov warfare article.

Black Pedro wrote:
But more generally, I agree that safety for industrial (that is building things) corps are less of a problem as then tend to just shuffle resources around the economy. Don't get me wrong, they still need to be disruptable by competitors as this is a PvP game and that makes for more engaging gameplay, but much worse is having safety for activities that bring resources into the economy like mining, missioning, incursions and ratting.

I can understand this reasoning - generating ISK and materials is not the same as manipulating existing ISK and materials. I'd look at it as how an activity affects the sandbox though. Traders and industrialists (in the sense you've defined) have a much larger impact on average. I think the more you affect the sandbox the more the sandbox should affect you. Newton's Third Law of Space Pixels if you will.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2015-04-03 07:33:18 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Never mind the sheer hypocrisy of actually telling me that PvP should be mandatory for everyone. My God how do you people live with yourselves?
And yet that is exactly what many of the PvP players have said here in this very topic.


Name three in-game activities that aren't PvP.


please define pvp, I like to hear your definition before answering.


I don't know what "pvp" is, but "PvP" only has one definition: Player versus Player.



Exactly right - which is why I find some peoples inability to use all the methods at their disposal.....inexplicable.

This is the crux of it.

"People affect the market so affect me! This is PvP!"
>So fight back via the market...
"I don't want to! I want them to engage me in PvP"
>Riiiiight

There is literally no such thing as a PvE player. Everyone, without exception engages in PvP. Now....some don't like shooting and that is a different question altogether.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#198 - 2015-04-03 07:55:27 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
But more generally, I agree that safety for industrial (that is building things) corps are less of a problem as then tend to just shuffle resources around the economy. Don't get me wrong, they still need to be disruptable by competitors as this is a PvP game and that makes for more engaging gameplay, but much worse is having safety for activities that bring resources into the economy like mining, missioning, incursions and ratting.

I can understand this reasoning - generating ISK and materials is not the same as manipulating existing ISK and materials. I'd look at it as how an activity affects the sandbox though. Traders and industrialists (in the sense you've defined) have a much larger impact on average. I think the more you affect the sandbox the more the sandbox should affect you. Newton's Third Law of Space Pixels if you will.
They do and they should be vulnerable to other players.

I agree overall with you that risk needs to scale with reward. You should be able to do manufacturing in NPC stations while in an NPC corp - it is a good way for new players, or players starting out on that path to get their feet wet. But we already have this. Player-owned structures already give bonuses to industrialists which are significant enough to make them mandatory for most aspects of real, economy-moving level production. Therefore, wardecs server a useful purpose for competitors of these operations to disrupt them. If I am wrong, and the research/invention/manufacturing bonus of POSes is too low, then that should be buffed to make being in a corporation more lucrative to compensate for the increased risk from exposure to a wardec.

This paradigm needs to be expanded more to other aspects of income generation, in particular resource generation to encourage corps to invest in vulnerable assets that significant ramp up their production (mining yield or mission LP bonus for example). I am pretty confident that the new player-owned structure will fill this niche and usher in a new glorious age of meaningful wardecs as players fight over these structures.

PI is already reasonably balanced as it scales so well as you move to more dangerous spaces. Doing PI in highsec pays terribly compared to elsewhere. And even in highsec there are POCOs to fight over which can make it more lucrative for a corp willing to take planets by force and defend them.

All CCP has to do is make these new structures provide significant bonuses, but bonuses that come with the risk that someone will attack them and you will have to defend or lose them and suddenly wardecs are meaningful again. Competition will quickly make it so that the only people that can significantly influence the economy are the ones that take the extra risk and use these structures. The only other thing that is needed is some way for players who do not want this extra risk to be part of a social structure (a social corp or other mechanism). Then they can enjoy the equivalent safety of an NPC corp (albeit with reduced rewards) and enjoy the social aspects of Eve at the same time. They will literally be having their cake and eating it too, the whole time not breaking the risk vs. reward design of the game.



The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#199 - 2015-04-03 08:07:40 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:
then every game in existence is pvp by the virtue of the possibility of pvp, even single player games since you can speedrun it.

Umm... no. But in Eve certainly almost every activity is PvP in the sense that it affects the greater sandbox.

I am not sure why players have problems with this concept. CCP heavily markets the game as a "single-universe" game where your actions can affect New Eden. There have been trailers specifically highlighting this ("The Butterfly Effect"), and the main webpage hypes the sandbox play is several places. Your actions change the environment for everyone else as you make your way in the universe attempting to collect resources and gain power.

You capsuleer, are part of a greater universe where your action can have a meaningful impact on New Eden. It only makes sense that if that is the case, New Eden (and the other players in it) can have a meaningful impact on your gameplay whether you like that impact or not.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Ra'Shyne Viper
Native Freshfood
#200 - 2015-04-03 08:09:57 UTC
Out of corp logistics is balanced? Lawl

DUST 514 player

Ingame name: Vin Vicious