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Amarr Ship Designs: Intolerable Warp Core Resonations

Author
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#61 - 2015-04-01 03:42:11 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
You have all been lied to. Our artillery shells are lobbed down range by Brutor tribesmen, and the auto cannons have children in them doing the same.


...but it's not child labor because they are just playing football below deck.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2015-04-01 07:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Stitcher wrote:
Pick up any piece of cheap store-brought consumer electronics and you'll be holding an item which itself contains at least one capacitor. A capacitor is nothing ore or less than a device for storing charge and releasing it when needed.

Starships don't contain one capacitor, they contain thousands. As do lasers, railguns, blasters and, yes, autocannons and howitzers.

Meanwhile, here is a piece of news for you: it is not physically possible to propel a round to anything remotely resembling a relativistic speed using chemical propellant alone, no matter how efficient the burn or the shape of the chamber. I won't go into the full detail of compressible flow here, but suffice it to say that the maximum velocity of a gas is given by the following equation:[link]

Where cp is the specific heat of the gas and Tt is the stagnation temperature of the flow.

Obviously, a projectile cannot reach a speed higher than that of the expanding gas which is accelerating it. Which means that, if we left it to pure chemistry, this equation would put a hard cap on projectile muzzle velocities which would make them utterly useless for ship-to-ship combat at anything but the most extreme close-range.

Getting those rounds out to hundreds of Km and scoring an effectively immediate hit requires the intervention of a technological solution. Without it, howitzer rounds would move slower than missiles, without the benefit of on-board guidance.

That solution is microwarp fields. I don't know why you're so hung up on insisting that the power for this MUST come from the ship's capacitor, or that the gun itself is not capable of housing its own capacitor systems to provide the necessary timed discharge. As I said, energy is energy. So long as it produces the goods, does it really matter where, how and through what circuits that energy is channeled?


I dispute the microwarp field theory because in-built capacitors in the circuit boards and power routers of a typical projectile turret machinery will not discharge the burst of energy required to generate a microwarp field. Do you have any idea how much energy is required to create a depleted vacuum bubble for every single projectile, where the smallest is the size of your forearm? You need a dedicated capacitor for that.

Not to mention the modern microwarpdrive actually works with the warp core in our ships to generate a limited depleted vacuum bubble to move at velocities exceeding what is achievable with an afterburner. That simply doesn't work with our turrets. If you want to do that with projectiles, you will need a warp core and a microwarpdrive in every single shell.

And no, I have no idea what kind of magic the chemists did to our shell propellant. You lead target, you fire the goddamn thing and the damn thing will hit the target a split-second later assuming that the recoil, tracking and trajectory calculations didn't screw up.

Hang on, are you suggesting that we have a miniaturised warp core and microwarpdrive inside all the shells?

Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
You have all been lied to. Our artillery shells are lobbed down range by Brutor tribesmen, and the auto cannons have children in them doing the same.


...but it's not child labor because they are just playing football below deck.


What sick bastard puts children in a warship?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2015-04-01 08:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
I stand by what Mr Egivand explains.

Furthermore it would be more convenient to use powergrid energy to fuel microwarp and warpdrives as well as laser and hybrid weaponry if that was feasible. There is simply not enough power output to allow that on any ship, antimatter/fusion core reactor or not.

Also, who said that current starship projectile technology is powered by pressured gas physics ? As I said, it is not about slugthrowers anymore...
Jev North
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-04-01 08:37:44 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
What sick bastard puts children in a warship?

Valid concern, but the enduring question of our time is what idiots put them in capsules.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-04-01 10:23:14 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
who said that current starship projectile technology is powered by pressured gas physics ? As I said, it is not about slugthrowers anymore...


Because the only other available efficient alternatives for accelerating a projectile are rocketry (AKA missiles), electromagnetism (AKA railguns), nuclear detonations (which would destroy the gun), and laser ablation (which according to your bizarre insistence that a ship's capacitor is the only capacitor that can do the job would also require the gun to use cap)

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2015-04-01 11:17:51 UTC
Do you seriously mean that the ship main capacitor is irrelevant and similar to... mere, single electronic capacitors ? The ship capacitor is the only capacitor ensemble that is able to store such amounts of energy... I really do not know how to explain that better, but that sounds obvious...

You keep avoiding answering the simple paradox that if your theory was correct, then it would make no sense either to use the ship main capacitor to begin with, if you just had to pull your energy off the main powergrid and its lesser electronic capacitors.

For the propellant in itself, I can not answer for the Matari. I am no Matari ship engineer.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#67 - 2015-04-01 16:22:43 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:


Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
You have all been lied to. Our artillery shells are lobbed down range by Brutor tribesmen, and the auto cannons have children in them doing the same.


...but it's not child labor because they are just playing football below deck.


What sick bastard puts children in a warship?

Well, the midgets wouldn't do it, and after the little talked about but brutal midget rebellion of YC 98, we weren't going to push the issue, we had to use the kids.... only the special ones though.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#68 - 2015-04-01 17:20:16 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Do you seriously mean that the ship main capacitor is irrelevant and similar to... mere, single electronic capacitors ? The ship capacitor is the only capacitor ensemble that is able to store such amounts of energy... I really do not know how to explain that better, but that sounds obvious...


Except that that's not the case. Why do you think that's the case?

Sure, it's this big prominent yellow thing in the middle of your piloting interface so I can see why you'd focus on it, but do you seriously mean to tell me that you think the only ship systems that exist are the ones you can see in your HUD?

Capsuleer or not, your ship is heavily automated. You don't need to devote attention to the atmospheric system, the water purifier, the deck gravity plating or every screen, monitor or volumetric projection on the ship.

Likewise, you don't need to know about the power systems in your guns because they're not relevant to you as the commander. All that matters from your perspective is "Do I have enough PG and CPU for these things?"

Stop fixating on your ship's central capacitor as if it's the only example of power storage in the entire vehicle. It's not.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#69 - 2015-04-01 19:13:47 UTC
If you are trying to insinuate that I am that daft to lean on such... idiotic considerations... Well if that's appeal to ridicule and ab absurdo you are going to use, I do not really see the point in continuing...

Mr Egivand demonstrated specifically why the capacitor can not be dismissed here, and as long as the question as to why would lasers, hybrids, warp drives, and every other module still use a capacitor if such things can just lean on a basic powergrid system, is not answered, I really do not see the point...
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2015-04-02 02:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Powergrid to keep the modules running. Capacitor's stored energy used for burst of energy discharges. How is that difficult to understand?

Think of it this way. You use energy from the powergrid to turn on a hybrid blaster turret and all its support machinery, from loaders to mag-clamps to conveyors ferrying the ammunition to the weapons and targeting computers and etc. If you use that same powergrid to provide the additional energy to activate the magnetic rails and to convert the matter inside each canister into plasma you won't be able to fire the weapon at all. All you get is a power failure for your trouble.

Here's a short calculation to illustrate the point:

An Incursus fires one Light Neutron Blaster II. Each time the Light Neutron Blaster II uses an additional 1.4161 GJ to fire. It takes 4s to fire each turret once. We assume that the time it takes for 4s to drive 1.4161 GJ needed to fire a Light Neutron Blaster II.

That means it requires:
1.4161 GJ x 4s = 5.6614 GW.
to fire the turrets each time.

That's 5,661.4 MW for each turret. The usable energy an Incursus' reactor can output is 45MW. That's not enough energy to fire from 1 turret, let alone 3!

So where did all that energy required to fire a Light Neutron Blaster II come from? Stored energy from the capacitor obviously!

The reason why projectile and missile weapons systems do not draw any energy from the capacitors to propel their munitions into somebody else's hull is because the energy required to do so is already stored...IN THE CASE/FUEL TANKS! You just need to divert a small amount of energy from the power grid, via circuit controls (usually an intricate network of transistors within the firing mechanism), to provide the spark inside the munitions to convert the stored energy into the kinetic energy needed to send the munitions into the bad guy's face. No stored energy from capacitor needed.

Also to avoid confusion about the 45MW, that 45MW is the amount of energy available to activate the modules AFTER you take out the energy required to activate the warp drive, the in-built defense and damage control systems, thrusters/engines, ship capacitors, sensor systems, drone controls (if applicable) and all the already-available support machinery.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#71 - 2015-04-02 03:58:40 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Powergrid to keep the modules running. Capacitor's stored energy used for burst of energy discharges. How is that difficult to understand?

Think of it this way. You use energy from the powergrid to turn on a hybrid blaster turret and all its support machinery, from loaders to mag-clamps to conveyors ferrying the ammunition to the weapons and targeting computers and etc. If you use that same powergrid to provide the additional energy to activate the magnetic rails and to convert the matter inside each canister into plasma you won't be able to fire the weapon at all. All you get is a power failure for your trouble.

Here's a short calculation to illustrate the point:

An Incursus fires one Light Neutron Blaster II. Each time the Light Neutron Blaster II uses an additional 1.4161 GJ to fire. It takes 4s to fire each turret once. We assume that the time it takes for 4s to drive 1.4161 GJ needed to fire a Light Neutron Blaster II.

That means it requires:
1.4161 GJ x 4s = 5.6614 GW.
to fire the turrets each time.

That's 5,664.4 MW for each turret. The usable energy an Incursus' reactor can output is 45MW. That's not enough energy to fire from 1 turret, let alone 3!

So where did all that energy required to fire a Light Neutron Blaster II come from? Stored energy from the capacitor obviously!

The reason why projectile and missile weapons systems do not draw any energy from the capacitors to propel their munitions into somebody else's hull is because the energy required to do so is already stored...IN THE CASE/FUEL TANKS! You just need to divert a small amount of energy from the power grid, via circuit controls (usually an intricate network of transistors within the firing mechanism), to provide the spark inside the munitions to convert the stored energy into the kinetic energy needed to send the munitions into the bad guy's face. No stored energy from capacitor needed.

Also to avoid confusion about the 45MW, that 45MW is the amount of energy available to activate the modules AFTER you take out the energy required to activate the warp drive, the in-built defense and damage control systems, thrusters/engines, ship capacitors, sensor systems, drone controls (if applicable) and all the already-available support machinery.


You have single handedly promoted my chief engineer to first mate do to your clear description of the capacitors relation to gunnery platforms.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#72 - 2015-04-02 07:40:28 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Powergrid to keep the modules running. Capacitor's stored energy used for burst of energy discharges. How is that difficult to understand?

Think of it this way. You use energy from the powergrid to turn on a hybrid blaster turret and all its support machinery, from loaders to mag-clamps to conveyors ferrying the ammunition to the weapons and targeting computers and etc. If you use that same powergrid to provide the additional energy to activate the magnetic rails and to convert the matter inside each canister into plasma you won't be able to fire the weapon at all. All you get is a power failure for your trouble.

Here's a short calculation to illustrate the point:

An Incursus fires one Light Neutron Blaster II. Each time the Light Neutron Blaster II uses an additional 1.4161 GJ to fire. It takes 4s to fire each turret once. We assume that the time it takes for 4s to drive 1.4161 GJ needed to fire a Light Neutron Blaster II.

That means it requires:
1.4161 GJ x 4s = 5.6614 GW.
to fire the turrets each time.

That's 5,661.4 MW for each turret. The usable energy an Incursus' reactor can output is 45MW. That's not enough energy to fire from 1 turret, let alone 3!

So where did all that energy required to fire a Light Neutron Blaster II come from? Stored energy from the capacitor obviously!


You may as well be trying to demonstrate to me that bananas are an excellent foodstuff because muesli bars can burn. Every statistic you just listed may be completely accurate, but any relationship between them and the point being discussed is, at best, tangential.

Blasters are not autocannons. The two types of guns behave in very different ways, and what each one needs in order to function correctly will similarly vary.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2015-04-02 09:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
I had already explained why projectile and missile weapons do not draw a single joule from the capacitors, Pator dammit!

((I am starting to heavily suspect that all the shells being fired out of a projectile turret might actually be gyrojets))

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.