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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#401 - 2015-04-15 04:57:34 UTC
Do moore ships get access to:

Fitting Service
Market Service
Insurance Service


That would make it interesting :D Especially the last one LOL!

Been around since the beginning.
Cade Windstalker
#402 - 2015-04-15 05:46:17 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Do moore ships get access to:

Fitting Service
Market Service
Insurance Service


That would make it interesting :D Especially the last one LOL!


Fitting I don't see why they wouldn't, there are already ways to get access to fittings in space. If you can leave the ship you can use the Market (really you can use it from space but that requires skills). I also don't see why you couldn't use insurance, since I believe you can currently file a petition with CCP to force a Super Cap docked so you can rig and insure it.
Hafwolf
Git R Done Resources
#403 - 2015-04-15 11:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Hafwolf
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Directly mentioned that this is their intent in the Fanfest presentations. You take control, you run the entire station as if it were just one ship with 0 speed.


They specified player controlled guns, I don't think they specified how many players, but yes.

This is part of why I don't see them letting moored ships actually do anything. They're safe, they shouldn't be having an impact on the grid around them without risking themselves.

Otherwise this isn't so much an incentive to use mooring as a way to abuse it.




I don't think ccp is going to allow more the a couple ships be moored at the same time. The description of mooring is sounds like leaving you ship floating in a pos shield or a corp ship maintainance array. In either case this is eve you never trust your corp mates with your stuff. There is a reason most super cap pilots have parking alts.

I still don't see why if a ship has acces to the the structures facilities. The structure should have some access to the ships.

I think ccp should restrict mooring to capital class ships and only allow up to 3 ships to be moored at any one time. I could see goons buying 20 or so carriers and have them permentally moored for platform defense.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#404 - 2015-04-15 18:15:32 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Do moore ships get access to:

Fitting Service
Market Service
Insurance Service


That would make it interesting :D Especially the last one LOL!


Fitting I don't see why they wouldn't, there are already ways to get access to fittings in space. If you can leave the ship you can use the Market (really you can use it from space but that requires skills). I also don't see why you couldn't use insurance, since I believe you can currently file a petition with CCP to force a Super Cap docked so you can rig and insure it.


Huh never heard of CCP docking supers to fit rigs and insure them via petition... Are you sure?

Been around since the beginning.
Cade Windstalker
#405 - 2015-04-15 18:39:49 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Huh never heard of CCP docking supers to fit rigs and insure them via petition... Are you sure?


Reasonably sure, though I heard the story quite some time ago so it's possible changes in mechanics or policy have invalidated this. I haven't had occasion to test it myself but I'm reasonably confident that at least at one time this was possible.

For reference there was a docked Nyx for sale recently with Large Rigs and the only way to get a Super docked in station is by CCP intervention so...

(oh, and CCP put the kibosh on the sale as well)

Hafwolf wrote:
I don't think ccp is going to allow more the a couple ships be moored at the same time. The description of mooring is sounds like leaving you ship floating in a pos shield or a corp ship maintainance array. In either case this is eve you never trust your corp mates with your stuff. There is a reason most super cap pilots have parking alts.

I still don't see why if a ship has acces to the the structures facilities. The structure should have some access to the ships.

I think ccp should restrict mooring to capital class ships and only allow up to 3 ships to be moored at any one time. I could see goons buying 20 or so carriers and have them permentally moored for platform defense.


My impression, from reading all of the various threads, is that these things are open for discussion. There was even some question of allowing Supers to dock or not in one of the threads. Stuff like security settings and access to a Moored ship is almost certainly up for debate. They also said they don't like the idea of AI turrets, and want them to be manned only. If you want to man your ship then un-moor it and risk it in combat Pirate

Significantly limiting the quantity of moored ships at one installation just invites people not to use it for its intended purpose, since that spreads out your forces significantly when that may not be desirable. I'm not saying no limit, but is way too small. There are individual players with more than 3 Supers alts.

Aaaand I feel you kind of answered your own prior question here with the Goons comment. CCP flat out stated they want the capital modules to be independent of the ship ones so they don't have to balance on use-case against the other. Letting structures use ships as auto-turrets or drone hangars is just inviting abuse of exactly the sort you're describing.
Hafwolf
Git R Done Resources
#406 - 2015-04-16 00:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hafwolf
i agree that certain types of defenses need to be manned.

I will use this example to explain.

Say I have a super carrier. I moor it to a structure to go ratting in what ever ship. Then I see reds jump into local I warp to my structure. I doc as I see a red fleet bubbling up my structure. I man the guns. I feel that if my super is moored I should be able to use my fighters as an option in the fight. I would be controlling them just not from my ship. I am at the structure and not off line. This might explain what I think should be on option with moored capitals.

Maybe for dreads and carriers be able to either use the siege or triage mode to either boost defence and attack. Of course you would be in the structure.

The only other thing I think we might be able to do is turn on mining links of your rorqual or orca if you are the squad, wing, or fleet commander of you ship that is moored. This might be something that would only be used on a drilling platform.

This example is work of fiction. You would not find me in any super or Titan.

Lol
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#407 - 2015-04-16 01:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
Cade Windstalker wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Huh never heard of CCP docking supers to fit rigs and insure them via petition... Are you sure?


Reasonably sure, though I heard the story quite some time ago so it's possible changes in mechanics or policy have invalidated this. I haven't had occasion to test it myself but I'm reasonably confident that at least at one time this was possible.

For reference there was a docked Nyx for sale recently with Large Rigs and the only way to get a Super docked in station is by CCP intervention so...

(oh, and CCP put the kibosh on the sale as well)



Interesting... iv been in and out of supers since 2008 (been playing since 2003/2004) and i have never had a super docked or seen one docked... Must be a very rare thing, none of mine were ever insured and loading one takes multiple people (or alts) done at a POS using a service array or a supercarrier/carrier near it.

Do you have any proof? If this is the case... i want to petition to have my supers insured Lol

P.S: I'm putting a petition in to see what happens Shocked

Been around since the beginning.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
The Initiative.
#408 - 2015-04-16 02:27:01 UTC
My concern here is W-Space.

Getting capitals in and out of W-space is no easy task. In most systems they have to be constructed inside and can never leave.
For those J-Systems that allow for entrance/exit of Capitals it is no easy task. Door limits generally allow 3 capitals to pass before collapsing, and that is on the rare occasion that you actually get the wanderer to spawn.. For these reasons I don't feel mooring Capitals is the greatest of ideas. I would prefer that capitals either cloak when moored or be allowed to dock. (I imagine that the docking station would only have limited m3 and would be roughly the same as SMA?)
Currently the way to determine if Capitals are in a WH (other that the rare time you come across a carrier sitting inside a c1 pos or an active escalation fleet) is to count SMA's. A WH with one or two SMA's probably isn't going to have any capitals, whereas 10+ SMAs is likely another story. This intel method is IMO the best way for this to be done. Simply clicking D-scan and knowing how many capitals and exactly what they are is a bit too easy. (lets make people actually use their heads for intel.. not just give it to them)
..by allowing them to dock you will be able to determine the chances of capitals based on the number or docking stations in system.

I think the best option is to allow capitals (non super) the option to dock or moor. Just as POSes currently allow for pilots to choose whether or not to store in SMA or leave floating. Also allow non capitals to moor if they choose. This allows pilots to show off their fancy rare skinned ships or to continue to use D-scan from an invulnerable position.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#409 - 2015-04-16 04:56:55 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
My concern here is W-Space.

Getting capitals in and out of W-space is no easy task. In most systems they have to be constructed inside and can never leave.
For those J-Systems that allow for entrance/exit of Capitals it is no easy task. Door limits generally allow 3 capitals to pass before collapsing, and that is on the rare occasion that you actually get the wanderer to spawn.. For these reasons I don't feel mooring Capitals is the greatest of ideas. I would prefer that capitals either cloak when moored or be allowed to dock. (I imagine that the docking station would only have limited m3 and would be roughly the same as SMA?)
Currently the way to determine if Capitals are in a WH (other that the rare time you come across a carrier sitting inside a c1 pos or an active escalation fleet) is to count SMA's. A WH with one or two SMA's probably isn't going to have any capitals, whereas 10+ SMAs is likely another story. This intel method is IMO the best way for this to be done. Simply clicking D-scan and knowing how many capitals and exactly what they are is a bit too easy. (lets make people actually use their heads for intel.. not just give it to them)
..by allowing them to dock you will be able to determine the chances of capitals based on the number or docking stations in system.

I think the best option is to allow capitals (non super) the option to dock or moor. Just as POSes currently allow for pilots to choose whether or not to store in SMA or leave floating. Also allow non capitals to moor if they choose. This allows pilots to show off their fancy rare skinned ships or to continue to use D-scan from an invulnerable position.


CCP is mostly interesting in mooring for supers, the caps are a second thought.

If supers can moore => so can caps, is their way of thinking about it. Since they concentrate on supers, its to make sure its practical and not OP.

Been around since the beginning.
Cade Windstalker
#410 - 2015-04-16 08:33:36 UTC
Hafwolf wrote:
i agree that certain types of defenses need to be manned.

I will use this example to explain.

Say I have a super carrier. I moor it to a structure to go ratting in what ever ship. Then I see reds jump into local I warp to my structure. I doc as I see a red fleet bubbling up my structure. I man the guns. I feel that if my super is moored I should be able to use my fighters as an option in the fight. I would be controlling them just not from my ship. I am at the structure and not off line. This might explain what I think should be on option with moored capitals.

Maybe for dreads and carriers be able to either use the siege or triage mode to either boost defence and attack. Of course you would be in the structure.

The only other thing I think we might be able to do is turn on mining links of your rorqual or orca if you are the squad, wing, or fleet commander of you ship that is moored. This might be something that would only be used on a drilling platform.

This example is work of fiction. You would not find me in any super or Titan.

Lol


My basic problem with this is one of balance and philosophy.

First, the philosophy of Eve is that if something is having an effect then there should be risk associated with it, no matter how small. This is why, for example, we can't have POSes as part of NPC corportations and ganking is a thing. What you're proposing here lets your ship have a significant effect on the environment around the station without any risk to that ship. There is some small amount of risk to the structure but so far there's nothing indicating that a Moored ship is at any more risk than items in a hangar.

Second, it's tying the balance of the defense of these structures to the ships moored to them. This means that, for balance purposes, the designers have to assume a full compliment of fairly blingy Capitals or Super Capitals moored to the stations, which either gimps the guns or makes the station stupidly powerful. Either way it discourages the mooring of anything that's not "loaded for bear" so to speak, which probably means a Carrier or Super Carrier loaded with Drones/Fighters.

This last instance also bears a remarkable resemblance to Skynetting in terms of the risk/reward mechanics.

I understand why you feel you "should" be able to use your ship's defenses, to which my responses are: This is bad for balance. If you want to use your ship's defenses then man your ship. You shouldn't be able to man both at once.

d0cTeR9 wrote:
Interesting... iv been in and out of supers since 2008 (been playing since 2003/2004) and i have never had a super docked or seen one docked... Must be a very rare thing, none of mine were ever insured and loading one takes multiple people (or alts) done at a POS using a service array or a supercarrier/carrier near it.

Do you have any proof? If this is the case... i want to petition to have my supers insured Lol

P.S: I'm putting a petition in to see what happens Shocked


Ah, I was apparently either conflating things or was miss-informed. There's a comment on this article that mentions ending up docked as a result of other issues and being able to take out insurance as a result of that. I also know CCP has reimbursed Supers killed through an exploit before. Policy on those is, I believe, that you can reimburse it anywhere but it's not allowed to do anything anywhere in high-sec except jump out.
Cade Windstalker
#411 - 2015-04-16 08:36:23 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
My concern here is W-Space.

Getting capitals in and out of W-space is no easy task. In most systems they have to be constructed inside and can never leave.
For those J-Systems that allow for entrance/exit of Capitals it is no easy task. Door limits generally allow 3 capitals to pass before collapsing, and that is on the rare occasion that you actually get the wanderer to spawn.. For these reasons I don't feel mooring Capitals is the greatest of ideas. I would prefer that capitals either cloak when moored or be allowed to dock. (I imagine that the docking station would only have limited m3 and would be roughly the same as SMA?)
Currently the way to determine if Capitals are in a WH (other that the rare time you come across a carrier sitting inside a c1 pos or an active escalation fleet) is to count SMA's. A WH with one or two SMA's probably isn't going to have any capitals, whereas 10+ SMAs is likely another story. This intel method is IMO the best way for this to be done. Simply clicking D-scan and knowing how many capitals and exactly what they are is a bit too easy. (lets make people actually use their heads for intel.. not just give it to them)
..by allowing them to dock you will be able to determine the chances of capitals based on the number or docking stations in system.

I think the best option is to allow capitals (non super) the option to dock or moor. Just as POSes currently allow for pilots to choose whether or not to store in SMA or leave floating. Also allow non capitals to moor if they choose. This allows pilots to show off their fancy rare skinned ships or to continue to use D-scan from an invulnerable position.


Fair point, maybe just have some visual indication of whether or not one or more ships are moored at a structure, but not how many or what type.

Also as an extension/corollary to this, does this mean you would object to regular Capitals being allowed to dock in wormholes?

I know intel is always a concern in Wormholes so anything that adds or takes it away is a major concern.
Odin Shadow
ZC Industries
Dark Stripes
#412 - 2015-04-16 10:06:14 UTC
ships/pilots were docked when an account went over 6 months out of sub, this was ended/fixed ages ago. other than that supers that are reimbursed end up being docked at the pilots home station less any mods that were dropped when they died.

how will the rorq work under this new structure? I remember that mining links were the only links allowed to be used in a pos shield due to the deployed mode for boosting/compressing. so will they be allowed to be moored and in deployed mode or will the new staging structure (aka large control tower) be the option for them?
Cade Windstalker
#413 - 2015-04-16 10:20:31 UTC
Odin Shadow wrote:
how will the rorq work under this new structure? I remember that mining links were the only links allowed to be used in a pos shield due to the deployed mode for boosting/compressing. so will they be allowed to be moored and in deployed mode or will the new staging structure (aka large control tower) be the option for them?


I would assume that the Rorqual will be re-balanced before they get around to actually removing POS shields, and Links are going to come on-grid eventually anyways, so the question is somewhere between up in the air and moot.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#414 - 2015-04-16 11:10:11 UTC
Hafwolf wrote:
i agree that certain types of defenses need to be manned.

I will use this example to explain.

Say I have a super carrier. I moor it to a structure to go ratting in what ever ship. Then I see reds jump into local I warp to my structure. I doc as I see a red fleet bubbling up my structure. I man the guns. I feel that if my super is moored I should be able to use my fighters as an option in the fight. I would be controlling them just not from my ship. I am at the structure and not off line. This might explain what I think should be on option with moored capitals.

Maybe for dreads and carriers be able to either use the siege or triage mode to either boost defence and attack. Of course you would be in the structure.

The only other thing I think we might be able to do is turn on mining links of your rorqual or orca if you are the squad, wing, or fleet commander of you ship that is moored. This might be something that would only be used on a drilling platform.

This example is work of fiction. You would not find me in any super or Titan.

Lol

Can the enemy shoot the Super?
If not then it's not fair to allow you to get it's bonuses without it being at risk.
And if they can shoot Moored ships, no-one will ever use mooring seriously.

So I don't see a sensible away to allow what you want to happen without breaking mooring one way or another.
Hafwolf
Git R Done Resources
#415 - 2015-04-16 12:58:04 UTC
I am looking at it this way the enemy can destroy the platform or turn the platform and take or destroy the ship. The end result is the same if pilot casts off can be killed. If enemy destroys structure the can take or destroy. That is the point I am trying to make if capital is moored up out side and can use station services and since it can be captured or destroyed any way why not let me uses it defenses while I am in the structure to defend the structure.. i think people are thinking these new structures are going to be like outposts. But ccp wants these structures easily destroyed or flipped with the entasis link. As of right now I don't see any use for these structures other then to maybe Change fitting. unless ccp wants to force more people to have multiple accounts. Each player in null has a carrier pilot to keep ships. A ratting or pvp pilot and a jump freighter or rorqual pilot to store fuel , modules and charges.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#416 - 2015-04-16 13:36:47 UTC
You are assuming the enemy captures the ship if they capture the platform for a start.
Which as I said in my earlier posts, if that is true, then no-one will ever use Mooring also.
Hafwolf
Git R Done Resources
#417 - 2015-04-16 13:51:01 UTC
Well he naval definition of mooring is tying up to a dock. If that structure is destroyed then the ship is afloat. By the definitions words ccp is using state that exact intent. I would never leave any ship moored and log off at a destructible structure. I am looking at these structures as a you log in and want to rat or Pvp for a couple hours great. Moor your capital drop your ratter or Pvp ship. Plus with the security of not having to anchor at a moon. Go have fun. Ccp will probably put some type of reinforce timer on these structures however 24 to 48 hours is not very long and you never know what is going to happen in real life to delay you getting back on. I don't think that capital ship defense should be used if you are gone. I really don,t see a lot of alliance level structures. Becasue of the cost I can see space cities being created with smaller structures next to each other for mutual defense. They might be corp but I think most will be personal with just alts on standing access.
Odin Shadow
ZC Industries
Dark Stripes
#418 - 2015-04-16 15:10:59 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Odin Shadow wrote:
how will the rorq work under this new structure? I remember that mining links were the only links allowed to be used in a pos shield due to the deployed mode for boosting/compressing. so will they be allowed to be moored and in deployed mode or will the new staging structure (aka large control tower) be the option for them?


I would assume that the Rorqual will be re-balanced before they get around to actually removing POS shields, and Links are going to come on-grid eventually anyways, so the question is somewhere between up in the air and moot.



I assume nothing when ccp are concerned, its an issue that needs to be addressed at the same time as the system they operate in is changed. other wise you end up with more worthless junk for at least 18 months
Hafwolf
Git R Done Resources
#419 - 2015-04-16 15:22:02 UTC
Well I think the new structures will be death to all capitals.


They need to die so the rorqual can die as well.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
The Initiative.
#420 - 2015-04-16 22:37:17 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Ele Rebellion wrote:
My concern here is W-Space.

Getting capitals in and out of W-space is no easy task. In most systems they have to be constructed inside and can never leave.
For those J-Systems that allow for entrance/exit of Capitals it is no easy task. Door limits generally allow 3 capitals to pass before collapsing, and that is on the rare occasion that you actually get the wanderer to spawn.. For these reasons I don't feel mooring Capitals is the greatest of ideas. I would prefer that capitals either cloak when moored or be allowed to dock. (I imagine that the docking station would only have limited m3 and would be roughly the same as SMA?)
Currently the way to determine if Capitals are in a WH (other that the rare time you come across a carrier sitting inside a c1 pos or an active escalation fleet) is to count SMA's. A WH with one or two SMA's probably isn't going to have any capitals, whereas 10+ SMAs is likely another story. This intel method is IMO the best way for this to be done. Simply clicking D-scan and knowing how many capitals and exactly what they are is a bit too easy. (lets make people actually use their heads for intel.. not just give it to them)
..by allowing them to dock you will be able to determine the chances of capitals based on the number or docking stations in system.

I think the best option is to allow capitals (non super) the option to dock or moor. Just as POSes currently allow for pilots to choose whether or not to store in SMA or leave floating. Also allow non capitals to moor if they choose. This allows pilots to show off their fancy rare skinned ships or to continue to use D-scan from an invulnerable position.


Fair point, maybe just have some visual indication of whether or not one or more ships are moored at a structure, but not how many or what type.

Also as an extension/corollary to this, does this mean you would object to regular Capitals being allowed to dock in wormholes?

I know intel is always a concern in Wormholes so anything that adds or takes it away is a major concern.


I would not object to allowing regular capitals being allowed to dock. As is the current mechanic. Any capital pilot can warp to an SMA and store their ship inside. (same as docking.)