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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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Author
pockitz
Ammo Supply
#361 - 2015-04-09 17:18:36 UTC
I myself like the idea of the larger size pos's have more mooring points and letting pll dock but as the size of the pos lowers it also lowers the mooring points and the number of ppl able to dock in them.
MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#362 - 2015-04-10 00:58:11 UTC
The new mooring mechanics are interesting and look cool.

They do not replace pos mechanics. If I cannot safely log off so that I can go on vacation or spend two weeks cramming for exams then you will lose some of my subscriptions.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#363 - 2015-04-10 01:08:26 UTC
I'd prefer to see people be kept in space as much as possible as it discourages people from going AFK as much as stations do.

What I'd like to see is small docks for small ships, but put them inside of areas that only small ships can visit. Basically a kind of anom beacon that does not allow heavier ships to warp to it, or to bookmarks within a thousand kilometers of it. Do the same thing for medium to XL ships.

If there is a kind of deadspace effect around it, or even large warp disruption bubbles, that would be interesting. If small docks could be parked on the same grid as larger docks, I would be fine with that.

The biggest factor that is going to govern the security of docks could be sensor strength, which governs whether or not they can be scanned down. Docks might as well emit a mobile signal inhibitor effect.

If they can't be scanned, nor the ships around them, then pilots might consider going afk, even without a bubble to protect them. However, their bigger threat then will come from spies.

Perhaps there could be small bubbles within the larger scan inhibitor bubble. The bubble could double as a warp disruptor, negating its effectiveness as a staging point, if that is even needed. I like the idea of players being able to fight in the vicinity of docks though.

What we need is an ability for a lot of people to access fitting services in space, resupply their vessels, store a number of ships, yet allow for a squad or fleet commander to get a visual approximation of his or her fleet composition.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#364 - 2015-04-10 01:46:44 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
The new mooring mechanics are interesting and look cool.

They do not replace pos mechanics. If I cannot safely log off so that I can go on vacation or spend two weeks cramming for exams then you will lose some of my subscriptions.

Heh, don't give in.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#365 - 2015-04-10 05:02:03 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
The new mooring mechanics are interesting and look cool.

They do not replace pos mechanics. If I cannot safely log off so that I can go on vacation or spend two weeks cramming for exams then you will lose some of my subscriptions.

Please explain to me how a POS allows you to log off safely for two weeks. Then I will believe your argument has merit.

Much as I do believe Moored ships should be safe and do an auto 'safe warp & log off' that can't be stopped if the structure is flipped. Otherwise people will just never use Mooring for more than 30 minutes.
But I believe you are asking for something that a current POS does not provide.
Cade Windstalker
#366 - 2015-04-10 05:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
MukkBarovian wrote:
The new mooring mechanics are interesting and look cool.

They do not replace pos mechanics. If I cannot safely log off so that I can go on vacation or spend two weeks cramming for exams then you will lose some of my subscriptions.

Please explain to me how a POS allows you to log off safely for two weeks. Then I will believe your argument has merit.

Much as I do believe Moored ships should be safe and do an auto 'safe warp & log off' that can't be stopped if the structure is flipped. Otherwise people will just never use Mooring for more than 30 minutes.
But I believe you are asking for something that a current POS does not provide.


If you safe-log off within a POS then your ship is safe until you log it back in. If that POS is knocked over then you have some fun ahead of you but the ship is still safe until you log it in (and if you have a Super you probably have someone you can ask either on another account or out of game). The worry here with the Mooring mechanics is that you Moor your ship, log off, and then the structure gets blown up and someone runs off with your ship (or the ship gets blown up with the structure) and you're kind of SOL.

pockitz wrote:
I myself like the idea of the larger size pos's have more mooring points and letting pll dock but as the size of the pos lowers it also lowers the mooring points and the number of ppl able to dock in them.


POSes don't come into this, they're being removed with the new structures coming in, and Mooring is a replacement for the shield mechanics.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#367 - 2015-04-10 06:28:04 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

If you safe-log off within a POS then your ship is safe until you log it back in. If that POS is knocked over then you have some fun ahead of you but the ship is still safe until you log it in (and if you have a Super you probably have someone you can ask either on another account or out of game). The worry here with the Mooring mechanics is that you Moor your ship, log off, and then the structure gets blown up and someone runs off with your ship (or the ship gets blown up with the structure) and you're kind of SOL.

Except that's nothing to do with a POS, that's just Logging off while in space.

If you actually use a POS to store your Super it is at risk of it being stolen randomly by anyone with access to the POS, and it can get blown up & stolen as it stands already.

Like I said, I agree mooring should be safe or it won't get used just like no-one uses the CSMA's to store supers now. But it's not a removal of an existing feature, it's the addition of a new feature.
Cade Windstalker
#368 - 2015-04-10 06:41:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except that's nothing to do with a POS, that's just Logging off while in space.

If you actually use a POS to store your Super it is at risk of it being stolen randomly by anyone with access to the POS, and it can get blown up & stolen as it stands already.

Like I said, I agree mooring should be safe or it won't get used just like no-one uses the CSMA's to store supers now. But it's not a removal of an existing feature, it's the addition of a new feature.


If you're in a POS and it's not knocked over though then you appear back in the POS bubble rather than warping back into the game and potentially getting bubbled. Sorry, should have mentioned this in the original post.

Basically safe-logoff in a POS is significantly safer than it is elsewhere, and has some added benefits, and the Supers pilots are worried about losing this.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#369 - 2015-04-10 07:27:13 UTC
But if you Moor and it's not knocked over then you are utterly fine also.
So you aren't losing that at all.
Odin Shadow
ZC Industries
Dark Stripes
#370 - 2015-04-10 08:30:37 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
But if you Moor and it's not knocked over then you are utterly fine also.
So you aren't losing that at all.


mooring and current pos mechanics (safe place to log in that is effectively the same as the station screen) should go hand in hand.
we should not be forced to moor and we should always have the option to the same mechanics as we have now.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#371 - 2015-04-10 11:31:15 UTC
Odin Shadow wrote:

mooring and current pos mechanics (safe place to log in that is effectively the same as the station screen) should go hand in hand.
we should not be forced to moor and we should always have the option to the same mechanics as we have now.

But you aren't going to lose anything.
If you log out in space you are going to be as safe as you are now. Since you can log back into a bubble camp on your POS or your POS destroyed currently (or even a hostile POS where yours was). So the fact this can happen to a new structure is identical to the current POS. If you log out at a Safe, well, same either way and unaffected.
If you Moor & log out, you will at the very least be safer than leaving your Super in a CSMA since no-one else can steal it (the way they are currently describing mooring)

What you are actually asking for is increased safety, not a copy of the current mechanics. I'm on board with this, just stop being so dumb and pretending that you already have what you are demanding, because insisting that you currently have perfectly safe logging out really isn't true.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#372 - 2015-04-10 15:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Odin Shadow wrote:

mooring and current pos mechanics (safe place to log in that is effectively the same as the station screen) should go hand in hand.
we should not be forced to moor and we should always have the option to the same mechanics as we have now.

But you aren't going to lose anything.
If you log out in space you are going to be as safe as you are now. Since you can log back into a bubble camp on your POS or your POS destroyed currently (or even a hostile POS where yours was). So the fact this can happen to a new structure is identical to the current POS. If you log out at a Safe, well, same either way and unaffected.
If you Moor & log out, you will at the very least be safer than leaving your Super in a CSMA since no-one else can steal it (the way they are currently describing mooring)

What you are actually asking for is increased safety, not a copy of the current mechanics. I'm on board with this, just stop being so dumb and pretending that you already have what you are demanding, because insisting that you currently have perfectly safe logging out really isn't true.

You know very well you can escape from a bubbled pos etc etc if you know how to login appropriately.

In fact even if the pos is down and there's only bubbles and hostiles watching it forever, you can still get out, if you know how to login appropriately. However, the character must be in the ship. If you move your pod elsewhere it's not comparable.


On the other hand, if you unmoor and then login appropriately, there's no reason you can't escape.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#373 - 2015-04-10 17:14:12 UTC
Suggestion 1: Build structures to defend super caps.
Shouldn't other structures such as gun batteries and missiles protect the ship that is moored from being bumped?

These POSes should be protected ports, and you ought to be able to "build" a "city" out of multiple POS structures on the same grid.

A smart corporation/alliance would put up multiple gun batteries around the mooring area that is protecting his super cap fleet from lol-bumpers. Any non-registered personnel that enter the area get popped (just like a naval base).

Suggestion 2: Mooring area has "tractor beam" that pulls ships towards anchorage area based on mass of ship. The larger the ship, the larger the force pulling it towards the mooring spot. players can warp off or move freely within a dead zone (to align), but once outside they get pulled back.


d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#374 - 2015-04-10 22:04:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
MukkBarovian wrote:
The new mooring mechanics are interesting and look cool.

They do not replace pos mechanics. If I cannot safely log off so that I can go on vacation or spend two weeks cramming for exams then you will lose some of my subscriptions.

Please explain to me how a POS allows you to log off safely for two weeks. Then I will believe your argument has merit.

Much as I do believe Moored ships should be safe and do an auto 'safe warp & log off' that can't be stopped if the structure is flipped. Otherwise people will just never use Mooring for more than 30 minutes.
But I believe you are asking for something that a current POS does not provide.


Seriously?...

When you safe log off inside a POS shield, no one can hurt you. It's very different than safe loging outside a POS shield where some asshat can lock you 0.1 second before you safely log off and... yeah you aren't safe. Same with logging back into a POS shield, MUCH safer.

Logging back can be tricky, that's why most of us use deathstar POS's deep in our sov space (and/or an alt in system to check whats going on before logging). It's tedious, but we are used to it. If this is taking away from us... then i can see a lot of people not renewing their super's accounts.

Been around since the beginning.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#375 - 2015-04-11 03:34:52 UTC
Maybe we wouldn't explain.

Though it is true even if we catch supers we never actually hold tackle....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Cade Windstalker
#376 - 2015-04-11 12:49:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
But you aren't going to lose anything.
If you log out in space you are going to be as safe as you are now. Since you can log back into a bubble camp on your POS or your POS destroyed currently (or even a hostile POS where yours was). So the fact this can happen to a new structure is identical to the current POS. If you log out at a Safe, well, same either way and unaffected.
If you Moor & log out, you will at the very least be safer than leaving your Super in a CSMA since no-one else can steal it (the way they are currently describing mooring)


This isn't functionally equivalent though. You have the option to either log out in space, where you are more vulnerable logging back in than you are in a POS, or you can Moor and have the safety to come back if nothing happened to the structure you were at.

The request here is essentially that Mooring, for the purposes of logging off a cap, should be functionally identical to the current POS safe-logoff system. This doesn't represent an increase in safety, it's basically just bump immunity, and since characters without POS access bumping a ship in a POS is an exploit anyways this isn't an issue.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#377 - 2015-04-11 15:00:36 UTC
The mooring mechanic is supposed to be there to keep your ship from being bumped away from your large POS. This ought to be perpendicular to ship safety when logged off.

I think that if you log while you are in your ship, then the ship still ought to warp off and/or disappear - even if it is moored.

Problem solved.
Malcaz
Omni Paradox Securities
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#378 - 2015-04-11 20:13:05 UTC
I really do not like the idea of removing the pos shield. I like being able to fly around in the pos. Docking completely removes your awareness of the space around you.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#379 - 2015-04-11 20:25:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to be around the mooring and docking features tied with those new structures.


  • Mooring is intended for the largest ships (supercapitals and maybe capitals) to be safely stored around those new structures. As long as they are within a specific radius of the structure, they would be invulnerable and could not be bumped. They would otherwise not be able to interact with their surroundings or other ships on the field as long as they would be protected. This is meant as a replacement for Starbase forcefield which currently has a certain number of issues.

  • Docking is intended for smaller ships to be able to get inside the structure and be safe from direct assault (just like in NPC stations)


We are aware mooring presents a lot of discussion points, some of which were expressed during the Fanfest structure round table:


  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.


We are considering various ways of solving the points listed above, like giving some "buffer time" when pilots moor and remove moorings to give them time to react by either jumping / warping away or aligning to another structure with available mooring capability.

Watchlisting should be removed and locator agents should be nerfed before or at the same time as this is added.

Since monitoring anchorages will be such a powerful intelligence tool, remove the other overly powerful intelligence tools at the same time.

Removing locator agents and making them a part of the observatory array could also work.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#380 - 2015-04-11 22:34:52 UTC
Malcaz wrote:
I really do not like the idea of removing the pos shield. I like being able to fly around in the pos. Docking completely removes your awareness of the space around you.

Alts online, doubtless.

In fact, afk cloaking alts online... and on grid

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?