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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#341 - 2015-04-06 01:56:51 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

We actually haven't seen or heard anything about the weapon loadouts on these sorts of structures beyond (paraphrasing here) 'some of them will definitely have guns like current POSes, and we're going to make these unique modules so we're not tied to Ship weapon balancing'.

Also it will only bear a superficial resemblance to the current POS shield mechanics if it's location based and creates an exclusion zone against enemy ships. If neither of these things happens then's closer to an un-dock timer that lets you move around a bit.

You missed the bit about 'designed to take on enemy fleets' also.
If it's location based, lets you move around a bit and not get shot at while enemy ships can't fly that close....
That's a POS shield.

On the other hand, if there is a natural exclusion zone of 'Well if you go this close to the structure and they fitted webs onto it, the AI will web you and your bumps will suck, and you will get shot', that's a nice zone that they 'can' try and flood with bump ships or bubbles to overwhelm the defences, but they are putting things at risk in a natural EVE way.

So yea, I'm on board with no need for soft mooring, and no need to worry at this point, since defences should create the effect you are panicking over anyway.
Cade Windstalker
#342 - 2015-04-06 02:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
You missed the bit about 'designed to take on enemy fleets' also.
If it's location based, lets you move around a bit and not get shot at while enemy ships can't fly that close....
That's a POS shield.

On the other hand, if there is a natural exclusion zone of 'Well if you go this close to the structure and they fitted webs onto it, the AI will web you and your bumps will suck, and you will get shot', that's a nice zone that they 'can' try and flood with bump ships or bubbles to overwhelm the defences, but they are putting things at risk in a natural EVE way.

So yea, I'm on board with no need for soft mooring, and no need to worry at this point, since defences should create the effect you are panicking over anyway.


I didn't comment on taking on enemy fleets solo because I haven't heard anything of the sort from a CCP rep (if you have please link a source) and I felt that was covered under "we don't know anything about the guns". I also highly doubt a single static structure will post much risk to a prepared fleet with logistics support.

By exclusion zone I meant something that physically keeps the ships out, not a zone where you simply get shot, since POSes currently provide that function and it's not tied to the Shield mechanics.

Also I'm not panicking over anything, thanks for your concern.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#343 - 2015-04-06 06:04:47 UTC
It was covered in the fanfest presentations on it in passing that the defences would be aimed at taking on a fleet. And you can keep demanding an exclusion zone, except it's POS shield V2 you are asking for in reality. When it's not needed and a terrible mechanic for a number of reasons.
Cade Windstalker
#344 - 2015-04-06 06:18:12 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It was covered in the fanfest presentations on it in passing that the defences would be aimed at taking on a fleet. And you can keep demanding an exclusion zone, except it's POS shield V2 you are asking for in reality. When it's not needed and a terrible mechanic for a number of reasons.


I'll double check the presentation but I believe there was a big "Might" (as in, "might have", or "might be") tacked on to the response to the question about defenses and I would treat everything there as still very much up in the air. Especially since "fleet" can mean a lot of things, and there's a huge difference in something that can definitely take on a 100+ man fleet and something that can maybe scare off a small gang.

Also I'm sorry if I haven't been clear here, but I'm fine with the removal of the current POS shield mechanics, and I'm not arguing for any sort of hard exclusion zone, I was just pointing out that what we have heard of the idea of "Soft Mooring" will likely bear little to no resemblance to the current POS shield mechanics in part because it does not include any sort of hard exclusion zone. (at least as far as we can tell, and judging by several of the abuses and tricks currently available through the current POS shield mechanics)
Terminator Cindy
Yesterday's Tomorrow
#345 - 2015-04-06 14:59:25 UTC
I apologize in advance if this has been discussed already, but what will happen with the existing structures ? WIll they be removed from the game altogether?

How about using them as components for building the new structures ?
Cade Windstalker
#346 - 2015-04-06 22:29:30 UTC
Terminator Cindy wrote:
I apologize in advance if this has been discussed already, but what will happen with the existing structures ? WIll they be removed from the game altogether?

How about using them as components for building the new structures ?


It's in the dev blog and the fanfest presentation video. Look at those if you want more info. The short answer is that functionality will be phased over to the new structures and away from the existing ones (so for example new Manufacturing will be moved to the new structures and the POSes and Outposts will lose it) and when all of that is done then the old structures will be phased out and people will be reimbursed for them.
Worrff
Enterprise Holdings
#347 - 2015-04-07 09:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Worrff
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Odin Shadow wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
xttz wrote:
/


/



I have a number of supers, I don't want to leave them at a CSMA and I wouldn't want to moore them anywhere either.
they log in to pew or add skills and they safe log out when im done with them. as long as I can do that at these new structures in the same way I can at a pos I don't care. not happy with the idea i will be forced to use these structure while im away from the game for extended periods of time, leaving assets ive worked for at risk because of real life. if that is what is forced upon me those accounts will unsub.


Same here and for hundreds (if not thousands) of other super pilots.



A lot of the larger Alliances do not allow sitter alts, as the super / titan will not be battle ready if required immediately.

While both my super pilots are highly trained in other areas (my titan pilot no so much) and would be useful doing other things, over the years I have become resigned to the fact that they do not leave their ship and never will. It no longer bothers me.

There is no way I will ever moor or dock my 2 supers and a titan at any of these structures. They will all safe logoff as they do now or all accounts will be unsubbed.

CCP Philosophy: If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it alone and break something else.
Worrff
Enterprise Holdings
#348 - 2015-04-07 09:44:49 UTC
Odin Shadow wrote:


the bulk of super owners have characters dedicated for them. and most would be happy to forget about mooring and docking them and keep the same functionality and interaction we have with structures now. that is log in, land in what is effectively super cap docking mode at a large control tower inside a shield, decide what we want to do (add skill, jump out, pew pew, bridge, log off again as no one escalated ) and then do what we want to do.
if we are replacing all structures we have to be looking at how they are used, id bet the bulk of super pilots don't care a rats arse about docking, they just want to interact with the new same as the old.



Spot on

CCP Philosophy: If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it alone and break something else.
Cade Windstalker
#349 - 2015-04-07 19:27:58 UTC
Worrff wrote:
A lot of the larger Alliances do not allow sitter alts, as the super / titan will not be battle ready if required immediately.

While both my super pilots are highly trained in other areas (my titan pilot no so much) and would be useful doing other things, over the years I have become resigned to the fact that they do not leave their ship and never will. It no longer bothers me.

There is no way I will ever moor or dock my 2 supers and a titan at any of these structures. They will all safe logoff as they do now or all accounts will be unsubbed.


Fair points, but I'm sure someone in the larger alliances will still find a use for the new functionality, and this might entice newer players or smaller groups to get into Super ownership. It's certainly not like there isn't enough free ISK floating around in the wallets of older players who have the skills.

As long as these changes don't significantly interfere with existing mechanics then there is no issue?
Odin Shadow
ZC Industries
Dark Stripes
#350 - 2015-04-07 19:53:31 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Worrff wrote:
A lot of the larger Alliances do not allow sitter alts, as the super / titan will not be battle ready if required immediately.

While both my super pilots are highly trained in other areas (my titan pilot no so much) and would be useful doing other things, over the years I have become resigned to the fact that they do not leave their ship and never will. It no longer bothers me.

There is no way I will ever moor or dock my 2 supers and a titan at any of these structures. They will all safe logoff as they do now or all accounts will be unsubbed.


Fair points, but I'm sure someone in the larger alliances will still find a use for the new functionality, and this might entice newer players or smaller groups to get into Super ownership. It's certainly not like there isn't enough free ISK floating around in the wallets of older players who have the skills.

As long as these changes don't significantly interfere with existing mechanics then there is no issue?


well the plan is to significantly interfere with the current mechanics.

currently I log in my supers/titans I land in what is effectively my own docking spot inside pos shields. I can swap skills, mess with fits, set contracts and all that funky stuffs safe in the knowledge that I cant be bumped or shot by randoms (can be bumped and messed with by corp/alliance members though), while I make a choice about what I want to do next. granted unless its pew pew I mostly safe log. but hey my choices.

under this new structure program. if I do not moor I will be vulnerable as soon as I land from log in warp, I can be bumped and have dic's drop bubbles on top of me. if I did chose to moor my ship im vulnerable while im not online.

just seams to be another in a long line of disincentives to owning scaps that have been released.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#351 - 2015-04-07 22:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Odin Shadow wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Worrff wrote:
A lot of the larger Alliances do not allow sitter alts, as the super / titan will not be battle ready if required immediately.

While both my super pilots are highly trained in other areas (my titan pilot no so much) and would be useful doing other things, over the years I have become resigned to the fact that they do not leave their ship and never will. It no longer bothers me.

There is no way I will ever moor or dock my 2 supers and a titan at any of these structures. They will all safe logoff as they do now or all accounts will be unsubbed.


Fair points, but I'm sure someone in the larger alliances will still find a use for the new functionality, and this might entice newer players or smaller groups to get into Super ownership. It's certainly not like there isn't enough free ISK floating around in the wallets of older players who have the skills.

As long as these changes don't significantly interfere with existing mechanics then there is no issue?


well the plan is to significantly interfere with the current mechanics.

currently I log in my supers/titans I land in what is effectively my own docking spot inside pos shields. I can swap skills, mess with fits, set contracts and all that funky stuffs safe in the knowledge that I cant be bumped or shot by randoms (can be bumped and messed with by corp/alliance members though), while I make a choice about what I want to do next. granted unless its pew pew I mostly safe log. but hey my choices.

under this new structure program. if I do not moor I will be vulnerable as soon as I land from log in warp, I can be bumped and have dic's drop bubbles on top of me. if I did chose to moor my ship im vulnerable while im not online.

just seams to be another in a long line of disincentives to owning scaps that have been released.

If you log in while moored, none of those can happen, and you also remove the potential of being awoxxed or flying out of POS with a bad bump. If compare not mooring to not logging off in a POS shield, it's practically the same situation.

All of the fears of perma-camping structures with dics and hics are not going to be any way unique to the new structures. And if you were to head over to the thread on asset protection and structure destruction, you'll notice CCPs intent to keep things that are inside safe even if the owner is not around, including docked ships.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#352 - 2015-04-08 00:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
Worrff wrote:

A lot of the larger Alliances do not allow sitter alts, as the super / titan will not be battle ready if required immediately.

While both my super pilots are highly trained in other areas (my titan pilot no so much) and would be useful doing other things, over the years I have become resigned to the fact that they do not leave their ship and never will. It no longer bothers me.

There is no way I will ever moor or dock my 2 supers and a titan at any of these structures. They will all safe logoff as they do now or all accounts will be unsubbed.


I use alts that are specialized in which ever super they fly. Never again i let my main rot in a super (did that back in 2009-2010, it sucked!).

Biggest issue with the current safe logoff, is some jackass can stop you from safe loging simply by locking you. So need to go in a hurry? You won't be able to safe log off in a POS shield where it's actually safe to safely log off... Next time you relog... hot dropped and dead.

CCP REALLY needs to look at that... Or else it's going to take so much work just to log in and out with a super... Then again maybe CCP wants that... nerf them so much they suck and are near-useless and then make them even more of a PITA the use...

Rowells wrote:

If you log in while moored, none of those can happen, and you also remove the potential of being awoxxed or flying out of POS with a bad bump. If compare not mooring to not logging off in a POS shield, it's practically the same situation.

All of the fears of perma-camping structures with dics and hics are not going to be any way unique to the new structures. And if you were to head over to the thread on asset protection and structure destruction, you'll notice CCPs intent to keep things that are inside safe even if the owner is not around, including docked ships.


That would be the only way i see super's using those structures. Big difference between a ship not being in game (logged off) and still being in the game when the pilot is logged off (next time you log in... oh oh 50 bubbles and 50 dreads waiting outside camping for you and killing anything comming their way)...

Been around since the beginning.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#353 - 2015-04-08 02:28:23 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:

That would be the only way i see super's using those structures. Big difference between a ship not being in game (logged off) and still being in the game when the pilot is logged off (next time you log in... oh oh 50 bubbles and 50 dreads waiting outside camping for you and killing anything comming their way)...

Except if you log off in a POS they can do the same to you anyway.
You simply aren't going to see station camps of the new structures any more than you see hostile POS camps when the POS has guns, because you know, the structure defends itself.

I do agree that 'moored' ships need to be just as safe as docked ships though, moored ships are just limited in number per structure and give away some Intel, while docked ships are 100% hidden (unless they have your API obviously).
So there is enough downside to only being able to moor already without being able to be killed/stolen while offline.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#354 - 2015-04-08 03:46:27 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
CCP REALLY needs to look at that... Or else it's going to take so much work just to log in and out with a super... Then again maybe CCP wants that... nerf them so much they suck and are near-useless and then make them even more of a PITA the use...

Sounds like a successful change.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Odin Shadow
ZC Industries
Dark Stripes
#355 - 2015-04-08 05:57:11 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Odin Shadow wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Worrff wrote:
A lot of the larger Alliances do not allow sitter alts, as the super / titan will not be battle ready if required immediately.

While both my super pilots are highly trained in other areas (my titan pilot no so much) and would be useful doing other things, over the years I have become resigned to the fact that they do not leave their ship and never will. It no longer bothers me.

There is no way I will ever moor or dock my 2 supers and a titan at any of these structures. They will all safe logoff as they do now or all accounts will be unsubbed.


Fair points, but I'm sure someone in the larger alliances will still find a use for the new functionality, and this might entice newer players or smaller groups to get into Super ownership. It's certainly not like there isn't enough free ISK floating around in the wallets of older players who have the skills.

As long as these changes don't significantly interfere with existing mechanics then there is no issue?


well the plan is to significantly interfere with the current mechanics.

currently I log in my supers/titans I land in what is effectively my own docking spot inside pos shields. I can swap skills, mess with fits, set contracts and all that funky stuffs safe in the knowledge that I cant be bumped or shot by randoms (can be bumped and messed with by corp/alliance members though), while I make a choice about what I want to do next. granted unless its pew pew I mostly safe log. but hey my choices.

under this new structure program. if I do not moor I will be vulnerable as soon as I land from log in warp, I can be bumped and have dic's drop bubbles on top of me. if I did chose to moor my ship im vulnerable while im not online.

just seams to be another in a long line of disincentives to owning scaps that have been released.

If you log in while moored, none of those can happen, and you also remove the potential of being awoxxed or flying out of POS with a bad bump. If compare not mooring to not logging off in a POS shield, it's practically the same situation.

All of the fears of perma-camping structures with dics and hics are not going to be any way unique to the new structures. And if you were to head over to the thread on asset protection and structure destruction, you'll notice CCPs intent to keep things that are inside safe even if the owner is not around, including docked ships.


if you don't log in while moored for a week or 10(50 skills in the queue) the structure might have exploded and you might already have lost your super. I've read that topic and there is a whole lot of time dependant mechanics being talked about.

the whole idea of mooring is to make pilots that are meant to be inside there ships free for some time, but after the amount of years that we have been stuck in the ships we are used to it, and some of us like the way it works and the commitment it takes. mooring should be an option granted but it should not be the only option which is what it currently looks like is happening, mind as there has been zero ccp input for sometime, who knows we might get hello kitty pos's and then they give up.
Terminator Cindy
Yesterday's Tomorrow
#356 - 2015-04-08 11:29:29 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
the old structures will be phased out and people will be reimbursed for them.


How will faction structures be reimbursed ?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#357 - 2015-04-08 11:36:01 UTC
Odin Shadow wrote:

if you don't log in while moored for a week or 10(50 skills in the queue) the structure might have exploded and you might already have lost your super. I've read that topic and there is a whole lot of time dependant mechanics being talked about.

the whole idea of mooring is to make pilots that are meant to be inside there ships free for some time, but after the amount of years that we have been stuck in the ships we are used to it, and some of us like the way it works and the commitment it takes. mooring should be an option granted but it should not be the only option which is what it currently looks like is happening, mind as there has been zero ccp input for sometime, who knows we might get hello kitty pos's and then they give up.


There has been literally zero talk of removing safe log off. Just you won't have a POS shield to come back to, because POS shields are terrible, you can still safe log off, and come back to a safe and cloak, just like now.

And I agree, a time dependant mechanism for moored ships isn't a good thing. I'm on board with moored ships being treated like docked ships and being 100% safe. Because otherwise yea, no-one will use it. Since you don't loose docked ships currently even if the outpost is flipped. You still have to undock them and get them out of system, but not blown up or stolen.
There is enough at risk with the structure of each size already. And Supers will only be mooring on the L/XL structures which are outpost analogues, not the M structures which are POS analogues, so you won't be getting safe 'POS' mooring for Supers which stays mostly in line with current.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#358 - 2015-04-08 12:16:09 UTC
I did post a blurb a while back - no CCP comments since then.....

But:

- if 'Moored' means that you can interact with the station; get out; JC somewhere and back again before anything could happen - then I see no problem

- if 'Soft-mooring' is effectively the same as being inside a POS-shield and one can safe-log from that situation - then I also see no problem

Pilots who live in their SCs (Titans?) who used to safe-log in POS-shields can now simply login/out in a soft moor position as before in no more danger than if their POS was attacked, or not.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#359 - 2015-04-08 12:21:10 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
I did post a blurb a while back - no CCP comments since then.....

But:

- if 'Moored' means that you can interact with the station; get out; JC somewhere and back again before anything could happen - then I see no problem

- if 'Soft-mooring' is effectively the same as being inside a POS-shield and one can safe-log from that situation - then I also see no problem

Pilots who live in their SCs (Titans?) who used to safe-log in POS-shields can now simply login/out in a soft moor position as before in no more danger than if their POS was attacked, or not.

Problem is soft mooring still leaves a whole raft of issues which the current POS shield has in existence. So it shouldn't exist. Behaviour should be obvious. Ship undocks/unmoors and it has an undocking invuln timer then it's interact-able with like normal. Not a weird zone where behaviour isn't obvious that's even less visible than the POS shield.
Cade Windstalker
#360 - 2015-04-08 16:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Odin Shadow wrote:
well the plan is to significantly interfere with the current mechanics.

currently I log in my supers/titans I land in what is effectively my own docking spot inside pos shields. I can swap skills, mess with fits, set contracts and all that funky stuffs safe in the knowledge that I cant be bumped or shot by randoms (can be bumped and messed with by corp/alliance members though), while I make a choice about what I want to do next. granted unless its pew pew I mostly safe log. but hey my choices.

under this new structure program. if I do not moor I will be vulnerable as soon as I land from log in warp, I can be bumped and have dic's drop bubbles on top of me. if I did chose to moor my ship im vulnerable while im not online.

just seams to be another in a long line of disincentives to owning scaps that have been released.


Hence why I said "if". The plan is open to feedback and revising, and really we don't have any sort of hard feature list for Mooring yet, just a vague idea. It's possible safe-log-off will stick around as part of Mooring, and if you do Moor your Super you can do everything you're listing there as well as do anything that requires the character to be docked in station.

Not a big deal for you I know, as has been repeatedly stated Supers pilots have gotten used to the hassles of living in a flying coffin. On the other hand, anyone ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? >.>

Terminator Cindy wrote:
How will faction structures be reimbursed ?


Nope, sadly my psychic powers are on the fritz. The only thing we know is that there will be some reimbursement of some kind for old structures, but there have been no other details as yet.

d0cTeR9 wrote:
Then again maybe CCP wants that... nerf them so much they suck and are near-useless and then make them even more of a PITA the use...


I can absolutely guarontee you this isn't the case and give you a simple reason why. It's bad for CCP's bottom line if people stop using and blowing up Super Capitals. Every time someone presses the wrong button and 2 Trillion in assets die the real world sits up and goes "oh hey, it's Eve again!" and writes articles about the game and the ridiculous **** we get up to over here in Internet Spaceships land. Every time that happens CCP sees an increase in new player activity, as well as vets coming back to the game. Supers blowing up directly increases CCP's bottom line and makes the players happy, so they have every reason in the world to make these things fun and easy to use.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Problem is soft mooring still leaves a whole raft of issues which the current POS shield has in existence. So it shouldn't exist. Behaviour should be obvious. Ship undocks/unmoors and it has an undocking invuln timer then it's interact-able with like normal. Not a weird zone where behaviour isn't obvious that's even less visible than the POS shield.


I don't think there's any issue with making an undock/unmooring timer where you can move a bit near a structure, as long as it is timed to some degree, and then calling it "soft mooring" though. A lot of the issues with a POS shield deal with it being tied to a physical location entirely, as well as it bumping out unauthorized players. Soft Mooring in any form should fix this entirely as long as you can't just hug the structure and get back your invulnerability even while being shot.