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[New structures] Market Hubs and Drilling Platforms

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Author
Phoenix Jones
The Markoni Dragons
#201 - 2015-05-15 09:00:35 UTC
There are a few ways to deal with the future of mining

1) rorqual turns into a moon mining platform, blasting rocks out of moons and making a moon asteroid belt for smaller mining vessels to scoop.

2) moon mining would require a rorqual to dock at it to actually mine (player activated)

3) mining array requires fuel, turns on and creates a asteroid belt around the moon for which people can mine moongoop from.

4) mining array blasts and tractors off the moon surface small and large chunks of moon rocks. Rorqual scoops and devowers massive rocks ( can do the same for asteroid belts).

Basically I would like to see moon mining take a more active part with the players as a whole and with miners specifically. Make their mining capital ship a MINING Capital ship.

We need to get away from mass alt afk moon operations. There are other ideas besides the above, but avoid any and all automatic mining setups. You will take the fun away from miners (and yes there are people who enjoy mining).

Yaay!!!!

Kenneth Fritz
DND Industries
#202 - 2015-05-16 07:50:29 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
There's a lot of "let's make structures that do all the mining for us so we can AFK strip mine the system!" ideas. CCP, I really hope you're just laughing at these attempts to change botting from the de facto way of doing it, to the de jure way.



Phoenix Jones wrote:
On the drilling platform, if the platform spawned ore/rocks that were mined from the moon, which had to be collected by a miningb' ship/barge, that's ok.

Basically the platform mines the moon, roids spawn around the platform (pieces of the moon), players mine the pieces for moongoo (barges and ventures go to work). It turns an alliance asset into a group collection effort.

If you want to make the rorqual more useful, allow it to tractor in large pieces of the ore and literally munch it. The fastest option of mining moon ore, or possibly give it a bonus to the amount it eats.

Basically give the goo to the players and let them have it.

I really like this as it makes moon mining disruptable. If it's disruptable not only do you have opportunities for content, but it then becomes a valid activity for increasing a system's industry index.



With this setup you could also have alliances set a tax on this equipment. It keeps a % of all the rocks it tosses into space. So you can have it somewhat passive if you chose, or 100% passive (i.e. Goons or someone sets 100% tax on there r64's) but they can be poped easier. This though, however, also pulled in the issue of things not changing. Certin moon ore would still only be available in certin areas of space. Where as i think moon goo need other means of getting it, like comets, or new roid feilds. So essentually i could pick a constalation and have everything i need to live and build everything i need. You would get more goo from moons but moon mining really needs to die.



This right here seems like a very doable and enjoyable way of getting things done. Adds interaction and creates a risk to gain factor. Especially if the moon rocks are treated as normal asteroids and can bee mined by anyone daring enough to try to take from under your corp's nose. I know the bigger the structure the more capable it is of defending itself but if you leave one of these unattended and a small group comes in with a e-war ship two miners and a hauler they could potentially get away with a fair amount of the materials floating around it. This of course is assuming that the array pulls rocks up in a passive manner up to a certain m3 amount of rock.

Who's your end of the world buddy?

Hafwolf
Krieg 7th Brigade
#203 - 2015-05-18 13:21:18 UTC
Hey after reading the new dev blog. I like the where they are going.

However I think the medium citadel structure should not be on the ship scanner that is easily with an easy warp to. The reason is that if a person has a structure just for there own personal use this would make it to vulnerable when they are offline. I do think you should be able to see them on Dscan and be able to scan them down with probes. Make the attackers do some work for the smaller structures. People scan down tractor units and depots in high sec just to kill the structures for the loot. These structures will be plenty vulnerable enough with out making it easy to warp to the structure.

I do like the idea though of if you have roles your alliance structures will show up on your overview.

Also maybe make there be more roles for using structures instead of the 2 we currently got.
Example. Reaction Engineer - has roles to load and change reaction schematics.
Industry Engineer - has roles to change assemble setups

Allow corp directors and CEO to assign roles that allow use and functionality without the person have the access to offline and unanchor the whole structure.
Wylde Kardde
Wrekker Mix
#204 - 2015-05-18 15:50:42 UTC
If anyone here has seen Star Trek (2009 movie) they used a laser drill platform suspended from a ship into a planets atmosphere to cut through the surface. If we're talking about moons than we won't need the ship or a counterbalance due to zero gravity so picture this platform w/o a tether but a connected power plant and silos.

http://www.benjaminbloodworth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/romulandrill.jpg

http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content09/romulan-flame-jet-drill.jpg

With this blasting a debris plume into space the actual (player) mining would take place in a ring around the drill where the rocks lose outward momentum and sit appearing like a typical belt except in a full ring instead of a crescent.

http://www.space.com/images/i/000/017/536/i02/moon-asteroid-impact-1600.jpg?1337288780



The Origional Intention of Pirate BS's... pvp

Nightmare X-type Burn out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyajGLoe0Kc

EnternalSoul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2015-05-20 15:20:21 UTC
Not sure if this is the best place to ask this or if it has been discussed already.

Corp Hangers, here is how my small corp uses them and I think WH people will like my idea.
Most of the members have multiple accounts and we each get a hanger access but as we grow some people have to share.

I would like to see all these new structures have the ability for player shared hanger, ones that the player sets up not the corp CEO and that player picks what characters have access to it (and what kind view, put, take). I also think that this should not be limited to corp mates, you should be able to share with characters outside the corp you are in.

We all have set up a Tower that only we have access to because we set a password and don't give corp access to it. But we still have to have the roles to use the thing we put up in that tower. With this idea you can have Charter Shared hangers in them and only those can get to it.

Another thing that needs to be fixed is in the new structures is how much space is left empty with out having to look in every hanger! even the CEO has to look in every hanger and open up a calculator and add up what is used to find out how much is left.

This will relieve the CEO and Directors from having to set up roles then wait until that person gets on and see if they got it right for what he needs, the try again repeat till members is happy then take aspirin for the head ache. Also the trust issue, who is sharing this hanger do I really know him can I leave this valuable thing here?!

Thoughts?
Felix Judge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2015-05-21 10:28:01 UTC
EnternalSoul wrote:
[...]I would like to see all these new structures have the ability for player shared hanger, ones that the player sets up not the corp CEO and that player picks what characters have access to it (and what kind view, put, take). I also think that this should not be limited to corp mates, you should be able to share with characters outside the corp you are in.
[...]
Thoughts?

+1 very much like this idea.
The details will probably be difficult, but it would definitely be nice (especially for people in larger corps) to grant access to some of their hangars to certain people, and not to others.

And btw, they are hangars.

Hangers is (among other things) where you hang your coats...
Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#207 - 2015-05-25 23:34:20 UTC
Heres a Question I haven't seen anyone ask yet

How will mobile siphon units adapt to the new structures?

If your drilling platform is an active process then siphons become useless since everyone will see you place it, but if its not, how do we determine what it can harvest?

Will it steal during the reprocessing or compressing process? Will they reserve some of the mined materials directly?

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Aileen Lovelace
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#208 - 2015-05-27 17:33:38 UTC
"Stock Orders"

Give the owner of a market hub a new kind of market order that function as both a buy and sell order in order to maintain desired quantities of an item available to purchase.: This would ideally be a unique benefit of owning a market hub.

Call it a "stock order", with a wholesale (buy) and retail (sell) price, give it a target inventory level (items will be bought until that level is reached), and offer substantially more of these orders to owners of market hubs than would normally be available.

This would let owners of market hubs shape their local market to have supplies of desired and necessary items, and make the importation of items of remote locations less risky for importers (as they would have the ability to sell to these orders in quantity at a guaranteed price), and vastly simplifying logistics for larger groups as marketeers could clearly see what's needed from the market window and market APIs

These orders would be non-expiring, automatically activating to buy enough of each item to bring it back to the desired stock level - essentially enabling a degree of market nationalization for corp and alliance markets.

Example:

Stock 100000 Liquid Ozone, Buying at 900, Selling at 1000

- Units of LO could be sold to the buy order at 900 as long as less than 100000 are held by the order. They would automatically be available for sale at 1000.
Haters GonnaHate
Doomheim
#209 - 2015-05-30 13:12:25 UTC
please open moon mining up to the masses as a higher tier PI. the vast majority of moon goo is handled by very few people at the top of alliance leadership at the expense of its members. Not only are these profits often pocketed by these individuals but some even go as far as to engage in RMT. Moon goo production should be accessible to any and all that wish to take the time to engage in it.
Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#210 - 2015-05-30 17:50:24 UTC
Haters GonnaHate wrote:
please open moon mining up to the masses as a higher tier PI. the vast majority of moon goo is handled by very few people at the top of alliance leadership at the expense of its members. Not only are these profits often pocketed by these individuals but some even go as far as to engage in RMT. Moon goo production should be accessible to any and all that wish to take the time to engage in it.


It already is, put up a POS on a moon, start mining, run your own reactions or sell raw.
Of course you also need to be able to defend it should it be a particularly valuable moon, which is nobody elses fault but your own if you cant manage that for biting off more than you could chew.

Besides why should they punish players who took that step, made the investment, and have been defending towers and then taking the profits? I see no logical reason for that what-so-ever.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Haters GonnaHate
Doomheim
#211 - 2015-05-30 20:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Haters GonnaHate
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Haters GonnaHate wrote:
please open moon mining up to the masses as a higher tier PI. the vast majority of moon goo is handled by very few people at the top of alliance leadership at the expense of its members. Not only are these profits often pocketed by these individuals but some even go as far as to engage in RMT. Moon goo production should be accessible to any and all that wish to take the time to engage in it.


It already is, put up a POS on a moon, start mining, run your own reactions or sell raw.
Of course you also need to be able to defend it should it be a particularly valuable moon, which is nobody elses fault but your own if you cant manage that for biting off more than you could chew.

Besides why should they punish players who took that step, made the investment, and have been defending towers and then taking the profits? I see no logical reason for that what-so-ever.


the problem is the people who "defend" are not getting paid to do it. The vast majority of wealth generated goes into very few pockets while the rest get a slice in the form of partial srp, and even then its mostly from their own tax. if you wanted to moon mine a higher tier moon in the space your alliance controls forget it. its not going to happen as they would never let you have one, and even if they did who is to say your corporation would let you put it up, or not take half or more of your product? No, right now it is absolutely controlled by the few at the expense of others, and I've seen said leadership engaging in RMT first hand. Current mechanics are unhealthy thus should be opened up to the individual to force alliances and corporation leadership to share the wealth with their isk starved membership, and maybe people would actually enjoy calling null home.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2015-06-04 04:49:44 UTC
Perhaps allow players to adjust tax rates in their citadel/market hub structures. This could encourage trade of certain goods while pushing others away.

This creates more economic tension, especially since groups using this will be aiming to corner certain markets or encourage them and they have a vested interest in keeping the trade in their region that way.

While high and low sec wont find this as useful, nullsec groups can use it to maintain economic power in a region, especially in those that set up free ports.
Felix Judge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2015-06-04 09:20:50 UTC
Haters GonnaHate wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Haters GonnaHate wrote:
please open moon mining up to the masses as a higher tier PI. the vast majority of moon goo is handled by very few people at the top of alliance leadership at the expense of its members. Not only are these profits often pocketed by these individuals but some even go as far as to engage in RMT. Moon goo production should be accessible to any and all that wish to take the time to engage in it.


It already is, put up a POS on a moon, start mining, run your own reactions or sell raw.
Of course you also need to be able to defend it should it be a particularly valuable moon, which is nobody elses fault but your own if you cant manage that for biting off more than you could chew.

Besides why should they punish players who took that step, made the investment, and have been defending towers and then taking the profits? I see no logical reason for that what-so-ever.


the problem is the people who "defend" are not getting paid to do it. The vast majority of wealth generated goes into very few pockets while the rest get a slice in the form of partial srp, and even then its mostly from their own tax. if you wanted to moon mine a higher tier moon in the space your alliance controls forget it. its not going to happen as they would never let you have one, and even if they did who is to say your corporation would let you put it up, or not take half or more of your product? No, right now it is absolutely controlled by the few at the expense of others, and I've seen said leadership engaging in RMT first hand. Current mechanics are unhealthy thus should be opened up to the individual to force alliances and corporation leadership to share the wealth with their isk starved membership, and maybe people would actually enjoy calling null home.

I highly sympathize with your point. Nobody is forced to fly for an alliance or for the people who pocket the moon goo income, though. The people who do, they must do it for some reason. So maybe they are not paid in shares of the goo income, but in some other commodity, in exchange for being part of that alliance. If a pilot is unhappy with the state of affairs in his alliance, he can always leave it.
Since "those people" depend on so many pilots willing to fly in the defence of said moon POSes, the best way to stop them keeping that income to themselves is not to fly for them.

Find a group or organize a group that is a) powerful enough to hold such a moon and b) shares the revenue from it fairly.
bp920091
Black Aces
Goonswarm Federation
#214 - 2015-06-12 04:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: bp920091
Phoenix Jones wrote:


We need to get away from mass alt afk moon operations. There are other ideas besides the above, but avoid any and all automatic mining setups.


You obviously dont know what you are talking about regarding the quantities of moon minerals required for the T2 market.

Yes, an active moon mining concept could work, for the R64 moons, but even so, it's simply not feasible, as you NEED a passive mining mechanic (maybe in conjunction with a bonus rate on a moon, but passive NEEDS to stay).

Take Dysprosium for example. the current HIGHEST priced moongoo, by quite a large margin. It sells for anywhere between 80k amd 90k/unit, depending on how jita feels today.

at the CURRENT rate of 100 units/hr, that is 8 million isk/hr. Not bad, but considering the rarity of the moons, and the m3 required, especially when most of these are in space that can be belt ratted in, at a better rate, it's not super feasible.

Now, take Platinum. It's a backbone of a LARGE number of items, and is only valuable en-masse.

Depending on the market, Platinum sells between 3250 and 3750 isj/unit.

at the current rate, that's 325,000 - 375,000 isk per HOUR. Same amount of effort required to mine them (same M3).


Now, if you increase the price of platinum, as noone will ever bother to mine it when shooting a single NPC battleship is more isk in the current state, the price on everything t2 goes insane.

Imagine if Tritanium was suddenly brought up to the same price as megacyte. That's the kind of thing that you are talking about, when you remove passive moon mining.

You try and increase the supply of Dysprosium? the only REASON why it's so valuable is that it's so rare (that and utility, but it's rarity is the major driving force).


Long story short, unless a MAJOR and COMPLETE rework on the ENTIRE T2 production chain is done (from moongoo to T2 mods), you cannot ONLY have active moon mining.


TLDR: No Passive Moon Mining = Faction Mods are Cheaper than T2
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#215 - 2015-06-13 22:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: DrysonBennington
Enta en Bauldry wrote:
Just want to note that a functioning market structure that can be configured for corp/alliance only AND works in W-Space would get rid of a major headache for me and quite a few people I fly with.

How it's to be implemented I don't know but as long as you can do something along the lines of;

Buy Trimark Armor Pump II in Jita
Bring it into JXXXXXX system, drop it into market structure (or something like a PHA?)
Place an order for it in system, only visible to corp (perhaps even specific title!)
Different player buys item and takes it out of the structure, fits it to their ship

I'm looking forward to the first public drafts.


AFK Mining or using Drilling Platforms will allow the miners to train to be combat pilots so the constant whine that is heard across New Eden from PvPer's not having enough targets to shoot at will be fulfilled.


With the new Entosis Link being able to breech Jove space using the link to breech W-Space for such transfer of modules and ships from K to W-Space shouldn't be too difficult.

Extremely costly, yes, but impossible, no.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#216 - 2015-06-14 21:24:10 UTC
I'm confused. Are these "market hubs" going to replace current hubs like the Emperor Family Academy in Amarr, or like Jita 4-4? Or will those stations remain as they are?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#217 - 2015-06-14 21:33:51 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
...
AFK Mining or using Drilling Platforms will allow the miners to train to be combat pilots so the constant whine that is heard across New Eden from PvPer's not having enough targets to shoot at will be fulfilled.
...


This assumes that all those miners actually want to become combat pilots. Mainly they don't. They especially don't want to simply be targets for PvPers to shoot at.

Mining should never be a truly AFK activity. If a miner goes AFK whilst their barge is in space they should fully expect CODE to reduce it to slag every now and then.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#218 - 2015-06-17 07:38:39 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Ed: to be clear I would prefer that all resources are available to everyone without them being fenced of as private by a structure being in place. Moon mining ships would be my choice for instance, but with the moon mining structures giving large boosts to corp members. then anyone can mine a moon that they find but those controling the space it is in will gain much more benefits. this would open up ninja mining in a prospector varient (for instance) as a possibilty for smaller groups/solo players and hopefully put more pilots in space.



  1. Anchor drilling platform at moon.
  2. Set to corp use.
  3. Make 100 alts
  4. Moon mine with 100 alts.
  5. profit *100!


Bad idea. This will have to be limited in some way or moon goo values will be utterly destroyed. I know moon resources have abundancy. But that isn't granular at all. x1, x2, or x3? Meh. Making moon mining more like PI might work. Perhaps hisec moon mining may even become possible.

Removing POS fuel costs will make many of the crap moons and reactions suddenly viable for small-time miners. tbh, this would be a big step forward even if nothing else was changed.

tl;dr: if a Drilling Platform on a money moon can extract multiples more than the current mechanics allow, it will break the T2 economy. This must be very carefully evaluated and balanced.


Um. What, mate?

If the supply of T2 materials gets removed from the hands of the few, thrown to the many, and increases so prices drop....is this not bueno? What kind of meth induced brain injury prompts you to say that cheaper T2 components and abundant competition which destroys the trillion-ISK wallets of the R64 moon holders is a Bad Thing?

Unless it's PL meth. Then it makes sense.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#219 - 2015-06-17 07:50:31 UTC
bp920091 wrote:
[quote=Phoenix Jones]

Long story short, unless a MAJOR and COMPLETE rework on the ENTIRE T2 production chain is done (from moongoo to T2 mods), you cannot ONLY have active moon mining.


TLDR: No Passive Moon Mining = Faction Mods are Cheaper than T2


So, let's see a MAJOR and COMPLETE rework of the ENITRE T2 production chain.

If your maths are correct, at 8M/hr for Dysprosium, it sounds like a crappy amount of ISK to make per hour if you were making as much Dy per hour as a POS does, and it was an activity being done by someone in, say, a Hulk.

However, the key nugget of wisdom you are conveniently forgetting in this whole equation is that the POS, for the handsome cost of about 480M ISK in fuel each month, produces 5,760M Dy per month with absolutely zero input from a player.

So, apples and oranges on that front. But that's 5,760,000,000 ISK with no real risk to any player, and no real player input.

So let's say that moon mining gets converted to a PI activity run from drilling platforms anchored around Dysprosium moons. If you make 8M per hour as a guy running a PI setup on a Dysprosium moon, you'll be making 5,760,000,000 per month. Except of course, now your drilling platform, which doesn't have the guns and defences of a Citadel, is vulnerable to some clown with an Entosis link turning off your drilling platform's drill.

You probably, therefore, have to actually manage the platform in some fashion. People have to defend the platform actively, or their nominal 5,760,000,000 ISK per month starts to dwindle. It becomes more than a one man job, done for the alliance.

Or, let's assume you forget to refresh the cycle. You lose money, Dy production.

Or let's assume that you can anchor more than one drill on a dysprosium moon. Oh. My. Glob. Honey, you've got competition, girlfriend. Maybe more dysprosium gets produced.

In the end, I look forward to entosis pinging moon goo drills, or depending on anchoring times, etc, maybe you can sneakily jack up a small drill off a dysprosium moon and leave it mining for a few hours during the off TZ of the sov holding alliance, and ninja yourself wads of Dyspro.

But at the end of the day, a more active, dynamic and entosisable moon goo architecture is coming and all this claptrap about how the T2 market is going to collapse is just hurfing and blurfing from the owners of the current monopoly. Bawww. See these tears, they are from the crocodiles.
bp920091
Black Aces
Goonswarm Federation
#220 - 2015-06-18 08:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: bp920091
Trinkets friend wrote:


But at the end of the day, a more active, dynamic and entosisable moon goo architecture is coming and all this claptrap about how the T2 market is going to collapse is just hurfing and blurfing from the owners of the current monopoly. Bawww. See these tears, they are from the crocodiles.


If a complete rework of the T2 production chain was intended by CCP, you'd think they'd at least announce it at least a few months before it went live.

Also, i dont think you quite know how rare R64 moons, especially Dysprosium are.

Most alliances will own 1-4 Dyspro moons, maybe (Big empires dont count, as they are going to get ultra-rich from taxes and renters in any case), and they go mostly to fund the quite substantial sov cost, which will remain (unless CCP's announced that they are doing away, which I sure havent seen). This also does not count things like Office costs (quite expensive in NPC 0.0), infrastructure upgrades (a JB is roughly 1.3b/month, for both ends), and other quite substantial costs *cough* SRP *cough*

I personally wont really be affected by any sort of collapse of the T2 market to a significant degree (got enough of a cash stockpile that i can weather 50m T2 hardeners pretty well), it's the average person in eve that's gonna feel the hurt.

Also, I specifically chose Dysprosium as an example because it was the MOST profitable moon (far more than it will be, long term), you forget that I am more focused on things like Platinum and Chromium, very LOW value moons, but who'se quantity of supply needs to be astronomically higher to keep things anywhere close to what they are now, price wise.

Perhaps it's becuase you spend all your time in WH space, but i also dont think you have any idea how much m3 is required for moons, both import and export. Small time people, even if they can MINE the stuff, are going to have a VERY hard time even GETTING it to highsec to sell. Unless, of course, moving 1,000,000 m3 of platinum from deep 0.0 to highsec is something that comes easy to you, and easy for everyone, then I dont have much of a leg to stand on.

Finally, if CCP allows more than one miner on a moon, all that it'll mean is that big alliances will have 100+ alts on a R64 moon, and massively shut-out the market, keeping the existing profits for themselves, but obliterating any efforts that a relatively small alliance (who cant spare 500 people a night to farm hundreds of billions) to make any money.