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Dev blog: Back Into the Structure

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Zan- nah
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#661 - 2015-05-15 17:43:22 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Rumbaldi wrote:
Will this make a lot of the current structure/POS related BPOs obsolete or will the items (like turrets etc) like be manufactured as they are now but the fitting of those items on a POS be different?


They're going to eventually become obsolete. Old items and BPOs will be reimbursed in some as yet to be determined/disclosed way.

Per the Fanfest presentation the new modules will be Structure Only so they aren't tied to the balancing of ship weapons and modules in any way.

It's possible reimbursement will involve the conversion of some old stuff into new stuff but we don't know that for sure right now. We've actually been discussing reimbursement and what would be fair for the last ~4-5 pages.


I wonder what will become of existing faction towers?
Terminator Cindy
Yesterday's Tomorrow
#662 - 2015-05-17 07:20:50 UTC
Zan- nah wrote:
I wonder what will become of existing faction towers?


There are dozens of faction modules which are in the same situation. I have asked this many times, including by petition, without answer.
Ragren
DS Trading Corp
#663 - 2015-05-27 17:42:11 UTC
very interesting.... But my corp took a huge income loss when the copy system changed and a titan copy went from 4 to 10 bill to a whopping 250 mill on a 60 bill investment per titan bpo... x4. Not even accounting for reasearch time.. We now have a significant amount in Pos's and parts. the pos's are now worth half what they were purchased for. How do you intend to refund for these assets. We have had to stop some production to wait on some of these changes. They appear to be 3 to 9 months out.

the time setting up data core income is also headed out the window. You have taxed it and complicated production. hours of spreadsheets out the window. I like production and use it to fund the combat side. I am getting this removed.

As a two member corp we did the grinding for 7 years. Take a little more time considering consequences.

Venting done...

The graphics are amazing...

About time mining made sense in Null sec

Hoping new station system comes soon so upgrades can be done a business resumed

Ragren
Pelle Wittewoa
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#664 - 2015-06-02 13:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelle Wittewoa
Aker Krane wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Rumbaldi wrote:
Will this make a lot of the current structure/POS related BPOs obsolete or will the items (like turrets etc) like be manufactured as they are now but the fitting of those items on a POS be different?


They're going to eventually become obsolete. Old items and BPOs will be reimbursed in some as yet to be determined/disclosed way.

Per the Fanfest presentation the new modules will be Structure Only so they aren't tied to the balancing of ship weapons and modules in any way.

It's possible reimbursement will involve the conversion of some old stuff into new stuff but we don't know that for sure right now. We've actually been discussing reimbursement and what would be fair for the last ~4-5 pages.

__________________________________________

Let’s just say, I am more than a little apprehensive on this one.

I and many others were severely shortchanged when it came to CCP fiats which deleted or combined components in the past.
Blueprints are especially concerning.

I and others have made SIGNIFICANT investments over the years in the existing structure BPOs.
Both in initial cost AND years of R&D to make these BPOs competitive.
After Crius, CCP introduced scaling research costs that some of us have undertaken on our BPOs in order to bring them up competitive margins. These costs, in both time and isk are non-trivial.

Being reimbursed for heavily researched BPOs solely for the NPC cost of these items is NOT acceptable or in any way equitable/reasonable.

These were not items that were gifted or part of a lottery. These were items which we bought from NPC entities, we paid NPC taxes and fees and invested large amounts of time to R&D them.

Furthermore, due to the current NPC copy costs, it is no longer acceptable to just delete the copies of these items. Again, the copy costs of many of these BPOs are non-trivial. As an example, it costs between 10 and 30 Million isk per run (dependent on the indices of the particular system) to make a copy of an outpost BPO.

I have a feeling a lot of folks are going to get stiffed again by CCP on this one.

We are ****** Aker, say bye bye 140b in station's (As builder, have 4 around, unsellable, locked up cash), bpo's, yeeeears of reseach and "ze business". Have lost 200b in T2bpo value with the T2 industry changes. And now, with this, i predict at least 50b void. 312 plex: poooof: 4687 Euro in value, being put out of the prizepool.

As reimbursement, i would like to suggest the following: Outpost bpo reimbursement based on the NPC prize + (current difficulty level of outpost's (the highest i guess out my head) and their current ME PE research level). The same for the components. The build only (but not deployed) should be ME0 bpo > (PI sell cost jita + installationcost's (components + outpost (roughly 1.3b also))). The deployed ones: Who ever deployed the station first > active 1: executive corp, director. They did the investment.
Kail Izzraham
Spacelys Manufacturing Exploration and Mining Inc.
#665 - 2015-06-03 04:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kail Izzraham
I love the idea, and the POS system is indeed in need of a major overhaul.

But of everything I read (which is brilliant I must say), there was only one section that troubles me. That was "...Encourage interaction between groups of players: Partly covered before, we want our new system to greatly favor player interactions via cooperative or competitive gameplay....".

Interaction and/or cooperative game play is rare. You really have your private groups so to speak, I have not seen (as of yet anyway) much in the way of anything being 'social' in nature, and to me anyways, interaction and cooperation is a social mechanic. I try to be social when ever possible, but 99% of the time I get nothing but dead air in return.

No matter I am still looking forward to seeing what exciting new features they bring.
Aker Krane
OMEGADYNE LABS
Rising Darkness
#666 - 2015-06-03 14:07:03 UTC
[/quote]
We are ****** Aker, say bye bye 140b in station's (As builder, have 4 around, unsellable, locked up cash), bpo's, yeeeears of reseach and "ze business". Have lost 200b in T2bpo value with the T2 industry changes. And now, with this, i predict at least 50b void. 312 plex: poooof: 4687 Euro in value, being put out of the prizepool.

As reimbursement, i would like to suggest the following: Outpost bpo reimbursement based on the NPC prize + (current difficulty level of outpost's (the highest i guess out my head) and their current ME PE research level). The same for the components. The build only (but not deployed) should be ME0 bpo > (PI sell cost jita + installationcost's (components + outpost (roughly 1.3b also))). The deployed ones: Who ever deployed the station first > active 1: executive corp, director. They did the investment.[/quote]

Could not agree with you more Pelle.

If CCP goes with just an NPC reimbursement on these items, I will be out 270-300 B in sunk costs.
To me, this is non-trivial amount of investment.

Since Crius, It has almost felt as if CCP has declared war of sorts on industrialists.
Pelle Wittewoa
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#667 - 2015-06-03 22:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelle Wittewoa
Aker Krane wrote:

Since Crius, It has almost felt as if CCP has declared war of sorts on industrialists.


Yeah indeed a little bit. I merely think thou, that all they are trying to do, is balance all income forms and in the meanwhile taking (excessive corporate) ISK out of the economy.
I think their focus was long on the first step: easier income source balance: Mission, NPC, FW, Plexing, lp ect balancing. And my feeling is that it is slowly drifting towards upwards.
With Step two balanced; Industry and especially marginalizing T2 manufacturing and invention incomes: make it more accessible for the lesser gifted players and finally deal with the T2 bpo issue.
Step 3, is being discussed here with hints by the developers and lies into structures. The future of alliance income is going to be generated by the masses: in form of industrial revenue. One of thé biggest major issue, the EVE sandbox core has ever had, (and needs to solve if it ever want to be mainstream MMO) is identifiable by asking yourselve the question: "How will EVE look like-, and be as an experience, if it was easier and just as cheap to get a fully fitted ship in high populated nullsec space as in dixodie (example)?" If you think what this could mean, to the game on long term, it will radically improve the experience by a hugh factor! And as i see it for now, it could actually work! Given the structural bonuses are equally reflected in the profit-vs-risk-vs-effort equation in compared to being/staying in safer sec. If that happens, the Hart of PewPew will be the future center of nullsec space. Ohhh boyy, welcome 100k Active user Peaks \0/ Very exiting times. But yeah Aker, it cost us loooooads of hard earned ISK, but on the bright side, we have the knowledge, spreadsheets skills, vision and investment-funds ready for the next opportunity!


(As i know, at least one dev reads this: i would like to donate my props of the rest of the year, to the dev that came up with the spelling checker to the forums!)
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#668 - 2015-06-28 07:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: DrysonBennington
Drilling platforms • Service module possibilities: Reprocessing, moon harvesting, reactions, mining, gas harvesting. We also are considering new harvesting gameplay mechanics. We could for instance have pollution gas clouds form around drilling structures that see high activity, or seed small planetoids in specific asteroid belts and scanable sites which require a drilling platform to break it down in smaller harvestable rocks.

Good idea. Certain rocks, gas and ice when mined when increase the pollution cloud index. The Drilling platform would give varied bonuses to their applied field of mining or harvesting. The pilot would have to dock to with the platform then pay a fee based on daily, weekley or monthly charge rates for the applied bonus.

Administration Hubs - Docking with the Admin Hub would allow the pilot access to all of the system facilities that the Hub is connected to for a fee. Bonuses that are applied from the Admin Hub however would be less than acutally paying for the bonus fee from each specific facility but would cost less than purchasing the bonus from the specific facility. Once a pilot has paid for a bonus in the Admin Hub the pilot could not purchase the bonus from a specific facility until the contract date had expired.

Will the new facilities provide any type of defense ships such as drones or fighter and fighter bomber protection to those who purchase the bonus contracts from a facility?

I would think that this type of defense would create a new market for industry in producing the specified drones and small strike craft.

The Defense Force could be deployed by the facility and then directed to a planet, a belt or bookmarked location. Duration of time in space would be determined by the facility managers skill level plus the Defense Force Manager's skill level. For example an Admin Hub would have at most the ability to launch 3 waves of T1 Defense Drones (comparable to Medium Integrated Drones or Faction Drones) that would stay in space for two, four, six, eight or ten minutes before returning to their facility automatically. Once at a location the drones would attack any ship that does not fit the facilities standing criteria such as NRDS or the normal standing system. Defense Forces could be attacked by pilots and NPC but they could not attack NPC unless first attacked.
Obulus Akiga
Doomheim
#669 - 2015-07-05 13:42:41 UTC
I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, I don't have time to read through all the posts but I second this if someone has mentioned it.

Outright removing structures in place all over New Eden then having to put up the new ones in their place just seems like a serious issue. If I am upset that even my medium tower and a few POCOs will have to be replaced, I can't imagine how furious the bigger alliances are. I mean it's a hell of a lot of stress even on a small level, I would imagine entire alliances having to practically fold their sov and rebuilt from the ground-up. If they can put in such an enormous effort to replace everything, then wow I would be amazed. This is putting an incredible amount of stress on the community.

I think we should have an option to CONVERT existing structures into the new, appropriate replacement. We should have the same grace period as we would have completely renovating our entire structure purely for converting structures. I have read the devblog twice on the structures, and it sounds incredible and I love the idea, but removing structures and having to replace them completely - not so much. For example towers of small, medium, and large can be converted into an appropriate new replacement - maybe make it safe to do this over a period of downtime. Same with other structures such as outposts of various sizes being converted to an appropriate replacement, as well as other structures in the game.

I just feel that everyone actually having to replace everything is dangerous for the game and hurting the players. I highly suggest this is looked into. I have been playing MMO's since 2004 and I have tried out many of them. When MMOs take out stuff, it's always a bad thing and hurts the game.

Would you guys suddenly take out spaceships instead of just re-balancing, updating models, textures, graphics etc? Structures are an even more serious issue than taking out spaceships without some kind of replacement put in place. They take a ton of work and it will ruin literally the working processes of entire alliances.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#670 - 2015-07-05 14:27:56 UTC
Obulus Akiga wrote:
I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, I don't have time to read through all the posts but I second this if someone has mentioned it.

Outright removing structures in place all over New Eden then having to put up the new ones in their place just seems like a serious issue. If I am upset that even my medium tower and a few POCOs will have to be replaced, I can't imagine how furious the bigger alliances are. I mean it's a hell of a lot of stress even on a small level, I would imagine entire alliances having to practically fold their sov and rebuilt from the ground-up. If they can put in such an enormous effort to replace everything, then wow I would be amazed. This is putting an incredible amount of stress on the community.

I think we should have an option to CONVERT existing structures into the new, appropriate replacement. We should have the same grace period as we would have completely renovating our entire structure purely for converting structures. I have read the devblog twice on the structures, and it sounds incredible and I love the idea, but removing structures and having to replace them completely - not so much. For example towers of small, medium, and large can be converted into an appropriate new replacement - maybe make it safe to do this over a period of downtime. Same with other structures such as outposts of various sizes being converted to an appropriate replacement, as well as other structures in the game.

I just feel that everyone actually having to replace everything is dangerous for the game and hurting the players. I highly suggest this is looked into. I have been playing MMO's since 2004 and I have tried out many of them. When MMOs take out stuff, it's always a bad thing and hurts the game.

Would you guys suddenly take out spaceships instead of just re-balancing, updating models, textures, graphics etc? Structures are an even more serious issue than taking out spaceships without some kind of replacement put in place. They take a ton of work and it will ruin literally the working processes of entire alliances.


At which point did anyone said anything about taking stuff and replacing them with new structures? Devs said that new and old structures will coexist for a looong time until all old functionality is moved into new structures. For all of this time You will have tons of time to take down old structures if you find new more promissing (adding direct conversion would be pita to program and would be waste of resources as player can take down stuff and put new one themself). And only AFTER this long period they will at some point start to take down old structures (note: never said they will replace with new ones, just take them away, period)

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Wild Dreams
S.N.O.T
S.N.O.T.
#671 - 2015-07-13 15:55:47 UTC
so basically if they don't replace the structures where they are in space null sec alliances are going to do more than burn jita I think they will destroy it I mean can u imagine all the null sec alliances trying to get all those structures they had replaced from high sec back to there original null sec space and set them up without an enemy alliance hot dropping the setup stage things will get messy unless the introduction of these new structures are not done right

I myself cannot wait for them as a part solo player the thought of having my own market hub I can tax all from my own home base makes me happy

like this post if u agree null sec is gona get messy
DHuncan
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#672 - 2015-08-05 12:08:57 UTC
How was it called? Administrative center? Shan't those interfere with the existing sovereignty mechanics?

As far as the old structures and satellite modules. CCP should:
1- Seed the market with buying offers so players can recover the isk invested in the old POSes
2- Nerf the BPs if you want to avoid a never ending industry of guaranteed demand to the production of those items.

What did you say about CODE?
Sabastian Cerabiam
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#673 - 2015-08-12 14:01:05 UTC
CCP needs to come out with some form of information regarding this post and the other station post. They hinted at all of this good ideas then let it all die over the last couple months.

Last i heard they wanted to start pushing this stuff out "this summer" well this summer is just about over.
Aker Krane
OMEGADYNE LABS
Rising Darkness
#674 - 2015-08-12 16:04:58 UTC
Has CCP even released the name of the next patch?

Anyone know the target date of release?
Sabastian Cerabiam
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#675 - 2015-08-12 17:18:42 UTC
Next Patch is Aug 25th. Its on the updates page already. forgot the exact name though and im to lazy to look it up haha.